no wind landings

[hookitt 1]

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OK...here's another one. Jumping a Tri 190 loaded at 1.3. I love the way the canopy flares and planes out except in no wind conditions. Can't seem to get it slowed down.

After reading this part, rather than go into a long description, I'll just add what I think may help. You already know how to fly a parachute and make it plane out so here's a simple suggestion that could make the difference.

Before you think you need to finish off the flare... finish flaring.

If you let it plane out to long, even though you're still traveling forward, there is not enough speed to convert to lift.

Try finishing sooner and let me know how that works out.

Hope that helps.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[JJohnson 0]

My first canopy was a Tri 160, loaded at about 1 to 1. In order to land it in no wind conditions I did a double front riser to build up some more speed. This allowed me to plane it out and get some lift out of it. It seemed on no wind days the canopy just had no flare left at the end. Toggles down all the way and nothing there.

It was rock solid in turbulence though.

JJ

"Call me Darth Balls"

[billvon 3,114]

>In order to land it in no wind conditions I did a double front riser to
>build up some more speed.

As someone else said, this is a bad idea unless you get the basic landing down first. A canopy will land you going as slowly whether you add extra speed or not; it's worth it to get that down first before adding speed on landing. It's all about energy management.

[BillyVance 35]

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Double front risers increase the canopies speed, that is not what you want to do if you can not stand up landings. Ari posted the best advice. Canopies, unless they are stalled, have forward airspeed in flight. You just need to get the forward airspeed to a point that you can walk it off or slide it out. I perfer the sliding it out on my feet method. Its just like sliding on wood floors, and you keep the flare going the whole time and its a slide with about 2 steps at the end.

That's pretty much what I do under my Tri 120 loaded 1.5:1. I'll make a small riser turn to final or front-riser straight in until just before the flare point, and ride the ground on my feet for a while. The first jumper I saw using this technique was Charlie Mullins, and he would slide on his feet for 30 yards under his Extreme 69!!

I just did a demo jump today at an amusement/water park. Had to land on the sand beach at the wave pool under my Tri 120 with the US flag (3x5). I kicked up a cloud of sand trying to skim over, forgetting for a moment that the sand wasn't as flat as grass after the masses had trampled over it all day... but still managed a great stand up landing for the crowd. Two of the other jumpers tried to run out the landings, stumbled and fell over... and there was no wind at all.

You do kind of need to pick up a little more speed with risers, and flare crisply to get the canopy to plane out and slow down enough to touch down and run out the landing. I've noticed when I didn't add the speed, the flare didn't work as well. I have over 800 Triathlon jumps, and I wouldn't jump anything else if I had a choice...

Blue Skies
Billy

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[JJohnson 0]

I'm sure there is a perfect flare for his situation....but my experience with a Tri was as I said. No wind = rough landings, no flare power. Add a little speed and suddenly we had enough to finish off the landing. Don't think I didn't try finding that sweet spot either. Going to the Silhouette next changed a lot.....better flare, glide ratio...suddenly no wind days were not so bad.
So I'm not advocating high performance landings, but I won't be suprised if he has a hard time finding that perfect landing on a no wind day.

JJ

"Call me Darth Balls"

[hookitt 1]

That's kindof odd because I jumped a tri from size 150 down to size 99. Using a straight in approach with no added speed it was fine. Actually, the 99 landed "ok" but it was a bit abrupt. I agree with bill entirely that no additional input is needed. I must admit that the 99 was a challenge to land straight in because I'm less familiar with a straight in approach especially at that wingload. Once was enough so the next couple I added speed. The larger sizes seemed fine.

airdvr stated he can plane the canopy out ok so I still believe the final portion of the flare needs to happen sooner.


JJ you're definately correct about the no wind landings being more challenging. If a person is used to swooping to any degree, a good excersize on a no wind day is to learn how to land with no additional input. You'd have laughed at a couple of my stumbles when I took a weekend of no hookturns on my stiletto 97. I'm really glad I did it because it removed the fear of having to sink in to a tight area.

Yeah.. I know... it's tough to waste a good no wind day on straight in, but challenge yourself and confuse the other skydivers. What you can learn in a day of no wind straight in approaches will come in handy one day.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[JJohnson 0]

Well lets be real, you could wring more performance out of a canopy asleep then I could anytime this decade. I wasn't saying that it couldn't be done, only that it was easier with some more speed. My Tri just felt that it had no real flare on a no wind day. The flare felt flat, it didn't plane out much and didn't stop the forward speed much. Lots of running involved. At the time an instructor suggested giving a little double fronts to build up some speed. Course he was a notorious hook turner....But the added speed did make the landings more enjoyable.
I also don't agree that "touching" the front risers before "mastering" everything else is some great evil either. Thats like saying until he can wring all the glide from toggles and pulling his legs up he shouldn't ever touch the rear risers.
I am curious if the Tri's you were jumping, or Airdvr has now is the newer one with the new steering line configuration for increased flare power? I also wonder how that new configuration is different from what I had. Peace.

JJ

"Call me Darth Balls"

[airdvr 210]

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I am curious if the Tri's you were jumping, or Airdvr has now is the newer one with the new steering line configuration for increased flare power?

Anyone have any more info on this? How would I know if this mod had been done?

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[JJohnson 0]

Call the MFG and give them the serial number, they will tell you if it has them or not. Or if it is a mod that only they can do.

JJ

"Call me Darth Balls"

[billvon 3,114]

>but my experience with a Tri was as I said. No wind = rough landings, no flare power.

Might be a trim problem. I've put perhaps 300 jumps on Triathalons sized from 135 to 190 and didn't have that problem. The Tri's flare like PD reserves; a lot of flare in the first third of the toggle stroke, then nothing after that. It takes some getting used to, but I didn't have a problem with no-wind days even with the 135. Shrinking brake lines can cause a big problem with flaring though, since they cause you to land in essentially 1/4 brakes.

[JJohnson 0]

Good point, it was a used canopy. It was also a real sniveler on opening as well. Being my first canopy I just became used to it cause I knew no better. I'm not knocking the canopy at all. All around the Tri is outstanding. I loved the material for packing. The only thing I didn't like was lack of wind penetration.

JJ

"Call me Darth Balls"

[ianmdrennan 2]

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Thats like saying until he can wring all the glide from toggles and pulling his legs up he shouldn't ever touch the rear risers.

Unless you're practicing rear riser landings (emergency) I'd agree with that statement. A shitty rear riser landing will easily be outswooped by a good toggle one. Rears (for HP landings) are really the last step when you're milking as much as you can from your toggles. That means a very smooth, slow and consistent flare before touchdown. There are VERY few people I see doing this. I do see plenty of stabby movements though.

In the context of this discussion we're talking about the last part of the landing. Whether you arrived at 15mph from a straight in approach or have slowed down to 15mph during your HP landing, the flare from that point is the same. So adding any speed doesn't make a bit of difference in the amount of flare the canopy is able to provide once it reaches that speed. What I do think has happened is that the pilot's toggle position is better because putting too much input in at speed produces a noticable amount of lift or pop so they've put in just the right amount to keep level.

Another thing that can cause loss of lift at the end is the pilot staying in a particular toggle position too long. For example they flare hard to the sweet spot to level out the canopy, then instead of smoothly continuing the input, they hold the sweet spot position too long and have to stab or speed up their input too much at the end than if they'd been "flying" all the way through.

Hope that makes sense cause it's a toughie to describe in text
Blue ones,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[JJohnson 0]

My rear riser example was meant more for making it back on a long spot...not for swooping. Sorry if I wasn't specific. Nothing I say is intended to advocate a swoop.

JJ

"Call me Darth Balls"

[ianmdrennan 2]

No worries. I misread your post..sorry (but I'll leave it in there cause it's worth noting

Performance Designs Factory Team

[dnewcomer 0]

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OK...here's another one. Jumping a Tri 190 loaded at 1.3. I love the way the canopy flares and planes out except in no wind conditions. Can't seem to get it slowed down. I'm not into swooping because I don't look good in crutches. Your thoughts?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Scott,

Other than the student rig I learned on, Triathlons are all I've jumped (175 and 130). I had the same problem you had....at first. Then after trying numerous suggestions from various "experts" that failed, someone with 14,000 jumps told me I wasn't flaring fast enough (for a Tri) to get the lift I needed to keep my canopy in level flight until it's speed bled off. Tri's do not fly or flare like elliptical canopies. I tried flaring much faster and found he was right.

I usually pull the toggles about 3/4 of the way in one second --- this gets me to level flight. Then I finish the flare when my canopy starts to drift downward. If you do this properly, you should not have to run out your Triathlon landings even under no wind conditions.

I agree with Ari and Andy....practice flaring at altitude to get the feel of the flare and how your canopy behaves with various toggle inputs. Find the speed of flare that "levels out" your canopy's flight path. That's the rate of toggle input you'll want to apply when landing. If you pull toggles too fast, you'll get so much flare you'll go upward. Also to get the max. flare, you always want to be landing at max. glide, so don't try landings in partial brakes. The faster you're coming in, the more lift you'll get when you flare.

Some people may not agree with this advice, but it worked well for me and others flying and landing Triathlons.

Good luck and keep safe.

Dave