pilotdave 0 #26 August 31, 2005 How about other factors that affect "knowledge" like keeping current on issues, new gear, fatalities, etc? Many jumpers, even experienced ones with lots of jumps and lots of time in the sport, have no clue what's going on outside of their DZ/region. Reading parachutist helps... but I think reading these forums and at least being exposed to all these opinions and all the news, questions, incident reports, and everything else helps broadens knowledge. You can't learn everything here that you can learn by visiting different dropzones and meeting different people. But you can at least learn that not everyone agrees with your DZs policies and general opinions about certain topics. New jumpers can learn that the canopy their S&TA recommended might be seen as insane by jumpers in other parts of the world. Hopefully this stuff gets people thinking. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #27 August 31, 2005 Quote How about other factors that affect "knowledge" like keeping current on issues, new gear, fatalities, etc? Yes, all that helps with Knowledge, but it does not do squat for experience. Quote Many jumpers, even experienced ones with lots of jumps and lots of time in the sport, have no clue what's going on outside of their DZ/region I would dare say that if you asked a guy with 500 jumps in a year and a guy with 500 jumps over 5 years that the 5 year guy would know more...Now the one year guy may be a better flier, but knowledge is gained through exposure, not just jumps. You mention this website....This website is good AND bad. Yes there is tons of good information, but there is also tons of BAD information. How do you know which is which? Experience can help there. Yes, people can learn form accidents....But ya know we don't invent new ways to kill ourselves. We just keep using the same old ones over and over. All we can really learn from accidents is that they still happen and I have noticed that some new highly current jumpers with few years don't seem to learn from them. Skill often breeds complacency. If you have been in the sport 5 years, chances are you knew someone that bounced. When the incident reports are personal and the name has a face...It means more than just if is words on a page."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
scrublink 0 #28 August 31, 2005 I am unsurprised about people looking at tunnel time and equating it with freefall time. I, however, don't think of it as the same. Tunnels help you learn how to fly. Skydiving is more than flying. Ever hear of someone having a mal in a tunnel?. Hooking in? Canopy collision? They are invaluable for working out flying problems and these statements aren't meant to bash them. It just amazes me sometimes that people are mesmerized by high jump numbers. They have never really mattered to me. I will have to say that the only jumps I really worry about logging are the ones on the invoice I send the DZ. I am current, both fun and workwise. Even jump in the winter (it gets cold up here). Last year I got paid for twice as many jumps as I logged. Our DZO doesn't usually like to give away money, so I probably made them. What prompted this question was a bunch of relatively newer (time wise) jumpers sitting around and talking about jump totals. My immediate thought was "there is so much more to this sport". 750/19=39.473684 Yeah, I would wonder about that too. Didn't jump much when I was flying the jump plane (gets expensive). Didn't write down the ones I made. Lost at least one log book. Hell, the only pilot logbook I can find is from my student days. I am such a bad boy about writing this crap down that I think I should be spanked. My opinion because of my lack of writing skills is definitely biased. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumperconway 0 #29 September 1, 2005 I happen to jump at a dz that has Tom Jenkins and Jack Burke regularly organizing! We regularly do 40 ways so that even the short timers get the experience of formation loads! The issue is quantity of good loads vs zoo loads is major! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #30 September 1, 2005 Quote Quote I'm not sure I agree that YEARS = knowledge, perhaps experience, but doesnt knowledge require more than rinse and repeat, and require active assimilation of new information? See I kinda disagree, but it is a matter of definition. You can KNOW how to do something, but not be able to do it....I have tons of AFF level 1's that KNOW that have to arch and to pull, but they don't do it. EXPERIENCE in my not so humble opinion requires doing it, not just knowing it. semantics perhaps, but i wouldnt call that "knowing". Instead i would say they are "aware" of what they need to do... you do not know anything until you demonstrate you can put your awareness into action.. experience is part of the process of training yourself to perform what you are aware of.. as far as numbers.. they are simply accumulation of individual events, they do not imply knowledge, competence or what i would define as 'real' experience. there is a saying about USFK that i think applies "How long have we been in Korea? 50 years, but we keep repeating the same year everytime." imo What you do with each individual occurrence, how you apply the lessons and observations from each previous occurrence to the next, how much each occurrence varied from the others, as well as what other 'indirect sources' of information you bring to bear towards the next occurrence has more to due with "Skill and Experience" than the simple accumulation of jumps...____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #31 September 1, 2005 Quote What you do with each individual occurrence, how you apply the lessons and observations from each previous occurrence to the next, how much each occurrence varied from the others, as well as what other 'indirect sources' of information you bring to bear towards the next occurrence has more to due with "Skill and Experience" than the simple accumulation of jumps... Yes but the guy with 1,000 jumps or 15 years has MUCH more exposure to the learning than some guy with 100 jumps or a year. So jump numbers is the amount of times that a person has been exposed to that environment. And in most cases the person with more repititions is more experienced and has more knowledge. Simple fact is that number of jumps does in fact normally equate to experience. Its why it is used. Other factors such as tunnel or education also come into play. However jump numbers still is a great gauge. I'll give ya an example. I was coaching in the tunnel....This student was wired tight. They turned fast, stopped hard, and took grips with authority. VERY nice. I did some 4way jumps with this same person. In freefall they were no where close to the same level of skill. I could almost sense that in freefall they had a "panic" that they did not show in the tunnel. It was a clear case of not having the *skydiving* experience and it showed. It is very hard for a person to become proficient without exposure. And number of jumps equals exposure. I also find that most people think they are better than their jump numbers...Funny thing is if most people tend to think that, and if they are actually correct then no one is "only" as good as their jump numbers. Still if I had to choose to give my kid to an unrated Instructor, I'd tend to give him to the guy with more jumps in almost every case."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bmcd308 0 #32 September 1, 2005 >>I also find that most people think they are better than their jump numbers...Funny thing is if most people tend to think that, and if they are actually correct then no one is "only" as good as their jump numbers. << I love telling people who appear to feel that way that I have 460 jumps, but I also have ten minutes of tunnel time, so I skydive like I have 470. ---------------------------------- www.jumpelvis.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Reginald 0 #33 September 1, 2005 An interesting discussion. In my opinion the answer is “It depends.” I personally respect both jump numbers and time in sport. In addition I feel that some people are “students” of the sport and others are not. All of these factors play into my final evaluation of a person. And Ron is right (did I say that with my out loud voice??? ); some people are good at one or two aspects of the sport, because they specialize in them but not other areas. I know people with 4 years in the sport that literally jump every weekend, study skydiving every day watching airspeed video, reading canopy control and mental training books, attending all the educational courses that are available, etc. I also know people with 10 years in the sport that show up every few weekends and do a couple of fun jumps, flail around in the air a little, and then go home. Say they both have the same number of jumps? Who do you trust with your life?"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LittleDJ 0 #34 September 1, 2005 wow, i completely agree, ive been trying to get as many jumps in as possible and have been going to my dz nearly every weekend for the past 2 months and only completed three jumps, but as i stay with the instructors and experienced jumpers, i have gained more knowlege than people who are on higher levels than me.*********************************** LittleDJ!!- There is no such thing as a perfectly good aircraft!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #35 September 1, 2005 Quote I know people with 4 years in the sport that literally jump every weekend, study skydiving every day watching airspeed video, reading canopy control and mental training books, attending all the educational courses that are available, etc. I also know people with 10 years in the sport that show up every few weekends and do a couple of fun jumps, flail around in the air a little, and then go home. Say they both have the same number of jumps? Who do you trust with your life? See but if they both have the same number of jumps it is an easy choice. Lets say the newer guy has half the jumps of the old hand. Now who do you trust with your life? The newer 4 year and lets say 1,000 jump guy, or the 10 year and 2,000 jump guy? Would your answer change if it was 4 years and 500 jumps and 10 years and 1,000 jumps? It is not easy to say "X" is better than "Y" in most cases...But since you can't individually "test" evey person you meet at the DZ, total number of jumps can really help. Just like the car with the bigger engine most likely will go faster in most cases, the person with more jumps is normally better in most cases. Its a rough way to guess, but its more often right than wrong."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bmcd308 0 #36 September 2, 2005 If you have high jump numbers, you probably know who Marcus Antebi is, and you probably will not fall for things like this: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1807822#1807822 I love that this comes up every six months or so. I really have to meet Marcus someday so I can congratulate him. ---------------------------------- www.jumpelvis.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
