StearmanR985 0 #1 May 3, 2004 Saturday I had to use some hard fronts to stay out of anothers way. The other individual was a bit high and went a little long on his cross wind to eat up altitude. Problem is, when he did finally turn back to get on final he was looking at the GROUND and not in the direction of his turn . He had no idea I was already there and preparing to set up myself. I on the other hand do keep my head on a swivel, as instructed, and pulled hard on the left front followed by both fronts to get the f#$%^ out of there. A friend who was still above and watching commented that it looked like that guy was aiming to kill me. Sunday I landed on the frontage road between the power lines and the freeway. Another and myself were on the crosswind preparing for final. He was drifting towards me a bit so I moved away from him which put me over the freeway. I made two bad decisions here. The first being I turned towards the freeway, I SHOULD have got on the brakes for a bit let him go then follow him in staying away from his burble of course. Secondly, once he was out the way I used fronts to get back on track. Problem with this is the canopy is going to dive a bit and those power lines started looking really big and getting realy close. I then said "F-it" and riser turned to line up with the road. The landing was quite good, I surfed the road for a bit and did a one step (I love the flare on this Spectre!). To 'get back' after the first stupid decision I made I should have used some rear riser instead of front. Now, to be perfectly honest, I am glad it happened. It was very good learning experience and I probably needed it for a few reasons. This is what I got from the two experiences: 1. Keep your head on a swivel. 2. Fly defensively. This is where I failed on Sunday. Sure I stayed away from the other guy but I stayed on the fronts like a dumbass!! 3. Keep your head if you do get into trouble and find a way to get yourself safely to the ground. Anymore thoughts or constructive input are welcome. Jeff Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #2 May 3, 2004 Perhaps a better lesson is not to use the front risers unless everything is perfect. In neither case would I have used my front risers to "get away" from a situation. I would have went to brakes to give me more time to evaluate the situation and make a decision based on the additional time and lower speeds. Pilots often get into the mindset that they have a bag of tricks that works most the time so they can use that same bag all the time. Swooping on the fronts might work 99% of the time, but swooping in heavy turblence is bad news and can lead to a collapsed canopy so the better option is to approach at normal flight and land from there. BTW, I thought just last week you said Lodi never has long spots Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #3 May 3, 2004 4. A good pilot knows when to say "No" The good thing is that you spotted the pilot on Saturday. I don't know how close the other canopy was (may have been far away) but as Phree said, front risers aren't always the best choice. Slower is better when things start getting crazy. Of course lets step father back the chain. You've already made it apparent that you want to fly smaller canopies than recommended - if you're going to do this you better be AHEAD of what's going on. If you'd focused on levels with other canopies would this have happened? Did the other pilot spiral down in front of you? If not, you're responsible for finding your "place" in the group. Finding your spot in the pattern is an important skill to have. Work on it. These kinds of things can "normally" be prevented way before they even happen if the pilot is constantly evaluating the situation and making the appropriate adjustments. Blue ones, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 37 #4 May 3, 2004 Another thing to remember is that you can start your landing approach when you open. What do I mean? With rounds landing accuracy began with opening and deciding whether to run hold or crab. These days that time can be used to establish vertical separation. I usually jump 4 way and often with lower time jumpers. Even though I don't fly a high performance canopy, I'll often spiral down below them to land first. Or, if I seem to be high on the group or in the air with some hot rods I'll lurk around above them until they have landed. Try to make sure the people know you were there after the fact, if not before.I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StearmanR985 0 #5 May 3, 2004 QuoteBTW, I thought just last week you said Lodi never has long spots We didn't have a long spot, we were out right over the airport. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites StearmanR985 0 #6 May 3, 2004 Quote4. A good pilot knows when to say "No" I completely agree. I should have gave up on the "HP" approach immediately. While some people have 'target fixation' issues apparently I have 'front riser fixation' issues. Something that I shall remedy right now. Thanks for the pointers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bodypilot1 0 #7 May 3, 2004 I think it was a good lesson learned Jeff. Luckily you made it through it with out getting hurt. Try not to fly over anything you dont wish to land on. As you've been told NEVER fly over the freeway and there was no need to. Luckily you seen the guy when you did, and remember you dont always get to land in the nice green grass area. If your set up is a left hand pattern you should be turning in for your final about 80 yards from the road, NEVER over the road. And if you were flying any smaller canopy you might have not had the chance to make the decision you made. Glad your ok from this experience though. Be safer...www.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AndyMan 7 #8 May 3, 2004 If you're going to fly at the wingloading then you are, then you loose the option of blaming other pilots if something goes wrong. You need to be proactive to make sure these situations don't happen in the first place. As the saying goes: "a superior pilot uses superior judgement to avoid using superior skills". If you're going to continue flying at your current wingloading, you need to be a superior pilot and avoid situations like this before they develop. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites StearmanR985 0 #9 May 3, 2004 AndyMan & Bodypilot1, I have been advised to do the following should I choose to do a high performance landing: Hold at a higher altitude for awhile to allow for more canopies to land, hence there will be less traffic in the air. Get down really quick and be one of the first to land. (I actually don't care for this one). If there is considerable traffic or anything 'out of the ordinary' don't screw around and do a standard straight in landing. AndyMan, I don't pass the buck, it is not in my character. As I stated, it was due to my own poor decision making that lead to me landing on the road Sunday. I was simply trying describe the situation, it was not my intention to place blame. I apologize if my wording seemed like I was faulting someone else. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites davelepka 4 #10 May 3, 2004 Not to get off topic, but I will, aren't you the same guy who had his WL questioned in reference to your Spectre 150 demo (rhetorical question). These are prime examples of bad desicion making as a result of in-experience. This is how accidents happen. Not listening to others who question your WL is how accidents get worse. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites StearmanR985 0 #11 May 3, 2004 Quote Not to get off topic, but I will, aren't you the same guy who had his WL questioned in reference to your Spectre 150 demo (rhetorical question). These are prime examples of bad desicion making as a result of in-experience. This is how accidents happen. Not listening to others who question your WL is how accidents get worse. My WL had nothing to do with this situation. The real topic is making proper decisions with regards to others that are also in the air. In both instances I made the proper decision of giving the other pilots more space since neither one was aware of my location (BTW, I did fly the proper pattern). But, on Sunday the manner in which I went about giving the other jumper room was incorrect. I put MYSELF (and only me) in danger when I really didn't have to. Keep on topic please. Jeff Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhreeZone 20 #12 May 3, 2004 Actually, your WL4'ing played a factor in this situation. If you were under a lighter loaded canopy you would not have decended into the pattern so fast and would have been much less likey to have have been reaching up to grab the front risers. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure in these situations... Avoid getting behind the curve and its all easy from then on.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites headoverheels 334 #13 May 3, 2004 Hey Jeff, Avoid the temptation to always be landing on the smooth grass area when there is traffic around. That's a pretty small area for a full otter load, depending on how the vertical separation is. In choosing your canopy type and size, you want something that you can land out in the rough, occasionally downwind, and be happy. As I said, based on my short intro to the Spectre, I wouldn't load it over about 1.3, because it will not slow down enough for my old knees in out/no-wind conditions. The first part of the flare will feel stronger/faster with the smaller canopy, and it will "swoop" farther, but there is no way that the smaller canopy of the same design can be made to go as slow before it stops flying and you have to touch down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites StearmanR985 0 #14 May 4, 2004 Gary, I received this advice as well. I will defininetly keep that in mind from now on. You are right, there is plenty of room elsewhere. Thanks Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites davelepka 4 #15 May 4, 2004 If I'm not mistaken, one of YOUR chosen headings for this thread is 'Decisions'. My post was outlining several bad decisions you made. The first was being that close to another canopy in the pattern. The only excuse for this is if your DZ was droping multiple turbine loads on paralel jump runs ala Wolrd freefall Conevention. Was that the case? Planning 2000 ft earlier would have had you taking steps not to converge on that langing area at the same time as other canopies, or at least only at the same time as jumpers you have flown with 100's of times before, and know their patterns and behaviors. Your next mistake was using your front risers in any way to avoid accidents. Front risers make things happen faster. Do you really think that a last minute change in plan, down in the pattern on final is the place to be speeding things up? Your brakes are ALWAYS the better choice when changing plans close to the ground. The fact that powerlines were invloved, and a freeway is another inidcator poor decision making. Don't want to land in power lines or on a freeway? DON"T FLY OVER THEM. You should have learned that in canopy control 101. Your last poor decision was selecting your WL. Your two previous errors show that you are not immune to the rookie mistakes that have injured or killed many jumpers in the last few years. Yes, your WL didn't contribute much to these incidents (and having two in one weekend should be a wake up call), but if you read my post, I stated that an overly aggressive WL will make accidents worse. Lucky for you, there was no actual accident this weekend. There's always next weekend though, keep at it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites StearmanR985 0 #16 May 4, 2004 As long as you have come to the understanding that my WL had little if anything to do with this situation. I realized my mistakes even before I got to the ground that day. You have pointed out what I had already realized and what I have already been advised of. Do try to keep up with the thread if you are going to reply, it would be greatly appreciated. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ianmdrennan 2 #17 May 4, 2004 Sorry but Dave is correct. Your wingloading (whether high or not) played a part in dropping you into the group below you sooner than expected. Regardless of wingloading it's your responsibility to fit into the pattern below you. Higher wingloading/smaller canopy means that comes up faster and needs to be identified and dealt with higher. It's not as irrelevant as you think. Blue ones, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 643 #18 May 4, 2004 If we look at this from a historical perspective, only the first guy and the last guy get clear shots at the 3cm disc. Everyone else has to fly a conservative pattern. If you don't enjoy flying your canopy in a crowd, then you should start thinking about vertical separation before opening. If you want to land first, open low (2 grand-ish) and immediately spiral down below the rest of the pack. If you want to land last, then open high(3 gran-ish) and sit up there in half brakes until most of the other canopies have landed. Smart jumpers plan to keep their brains a mile/minute ahead of their canopies. Re-inventing the plan at 300 feet over wires demonstrates lack of planing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites StearmanR985 0 #19 May 4, 2004 Riggerrob, Blunt but exactly the type of advice I need to hear. I am grateful for your constructive criticism and your guidance. Jeff Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites davelepka 4 #20 May 4, 2004 ***As long as you have come to the understanding that my WL had little if anything to do with this situation. Do try to keep up with the thread if you are going to reply, it would be greatly appreciated. ----------------------------------------------------- As others have pointed out, your WL does have an effect on evrerything you do under canopy. My point has always been that this situation should be an idicator to you that shit does happen under canopy, and your inexperience is a direct contributor to the amount of shit. Instead of looking back, and being glad nothing happened, why not look ahead, and do something to prevent what is most likely going to happen. Do try to keep up with reality if you are going to skydive, it would be greatly appreciated. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites StearmanR985 0 #21 May 4, 2004 QuoteSorry but Dave is correct. Your wingloading (whether high or not) played a part in dropping you into the group below you sooner than expected. Regardless of wingloading it's your responsibility to fit into the pattern below you. Higher wingloading/smaller canopy means that comes up faster and needs to be identified and dealt with higher. It's not as irrelevant as you think. Blue ones, Ian I didn't drop in on a group. He and I were the only canopies on the x-wind leg that were anywhere near one another. I had established my spot first but since we all share the air I kept an eye out for other traffic. He came in nice and gentle beside me but because he came in later he was turning and lost a bit of altitude as compared to me. I did ask him later and he said he never saw me. Anyhow, this put him slightly below me. At this point I was thinkking no biggie I will just follow him in (not too literally). I have landed with others before with no problem. But, he kept drifting towards me, closer and closer and finally I bailed. Obviously I chose the wrong way to bail. Anyhow, he was never in any danger of me and at the time that is all I cared about. The correct solution was so simple it is ridiculous, (I beat myself up for my own stupidity far more than anyone else can) a little toggle to slow down and wait to see where exactly he was going and all I had to do then is follow him in. Jeff Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites StearmanR985 0 #22 May 4, 2004 Okay, I give in. I am now a crispy critter. And not from the power lines. Jeff a.k.a. Mr. Charcoal P.S. I know, everyone here is trying to keep it safe. Well, the demo goes back on Monday so not to worry I shall soon be back on my Tri. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pilotdave 0 #23 May 5, 2004 Why not demo a 170 (or whatever size your instructors would recommend) next and see how ya like it. I'm not sure what your motivation for going to such a high wingloading is, but you might find a bigger canopy is just as fun but might help keep you out of trouble (or at least keep you from getting yelled at). It's also another opportunity to try a different type of canopy too, if you want. You'd get more time under canopy too. I couldn't believe how short canopy rides got when I switched from my PD 9 cell to a sabre2 a size smaller. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bodypilot1 0 #24 May 5, 2004 Quote I know, everyone here is trying to keep it safe. EXACTLY!!!!www.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites twnsnd 1 #25 May 5, 2004 QuoteI had established my spot first but since we all share the air I kept an eye out for other traffic. Apparently not. Did you just think it would be cool to do some crw on the crosswind leg? All I am saying is that it is all about planning ahead. Know that there will be a problem before it occurs. You admitted that you saw him before it became a problem, yet you let it become a problem. -We are the Swoophaters. We have travelled back in time to hate on your swoops.- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. 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StearmanR985 0 #6 May 3, 2004 Quote4. A good pilot knows when to say "No" I completely agree. I should have gave up on the "HP" approach immediately. While some people have 'target fixation' issues apparently I have 'front riser fixation' issues. Something that I shall remedy right now. Thanks for the pointers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #7 May 3, 2004 I think it was a good lesson learned Jeff. Luckily you made it through it with out getting hurt. Try not to fly over anything you dont wish to land on. As you've been told NEVER fly over the freeway and there was no need to. Luckily you seen the guy when you did, and remember you dont always get to land in the nice green grass area. If your set up is a left hand pattern you should be turning in for your final about 80 yards from the road, NEVER over the road. And if you were flying any smaller canopy you might have not had the chance to make the decision you made. Glad your ok from this experience though. Be safer...www.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #8 May 3, 2004 If you're going to fly at the wingloading then you are, then you loose the option of blaming other pilots if something goes wrong. You need to be proactive to make sure these situations don't happen in the first place. As the saying goes: "a superior pilot uses superior judgement to avoid using superior skills". If you're going to continue flying at your current wingloading, you need to be a superior pilot and avoid situations like this before they develop. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StearmanR985 0 #9 May 3, 2004 AndyMan & Bodypilot1, I have been advised to do the following should I choose to do a high performance landing: Hold at a higher altitude for awhile to allow for more canopies to land, hence there will be less traffic in the air. Get down really quick and be one of the first to land. (I actually don't care for this one). If there is considerable traffic or anything 'out of the ordinary' don't screw around and do a standard straight in landing. AndyMan, I don't pass the buck, it is not in my character. As I stated, it was due to my own poor decision making that lead to me landing on the road Sunday. I was simply trying describe the situation, it was not my intention to place blame. I apologize if my wording seemed like I was faulting someone else. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites davelepka 4 #10 May 3, 2004 Not to get off topic, but I will, aren't you the same guy who had his WL questioned in reference to your Spectre 150 demo (rhetorical question). These are prime examples of bad desicion making as a result of in-experience. This is how accidents happen. Not listening to others who question your WL is how accidents get worse. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites StearmanR985 0 #11 May 3, 2004 Quote Not to get off topic, but I will, aren't you the same guy who had his WL questioned in reference to your Spectre 150 demo (rhetorical question). These are prime examples of bad desicion making as a result of in-experience. This is how accidents happen. Not listening to others who question your WL is how accidents get worse. My WL had nothing to do with this situation. The real topic is making proper decisions with regards to others that are also in the air. In both instances I made the proper decision of giving the other pilots more space since neither one was aware of my location (BTW, I did fly the proper pattern). But, on Sunday the manner in which I went about giving the other jumper room was incorrect. I put MYSELF (and only me) in danger when I really didn't have to. Keep on topic please. Jeff Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhreeZone 20 #12 May 3, 2004 Actually, your WL4'ing played a factor in this situation. If you were under a lighter loaded canopy you would not have decended into the pattern so fast and would have been much less likey to have have been reaching up to grab the front risers. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure in these situations... Avoid getting behind the curve and its all easy from then on.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites headoverheels 334 #13 May 3, 2004 Hey Jeff, Avoid the temptation to always be landing on the smooth grass area when there is traffic around. That's a pretty small area for a full otter load, depending on how the vertical separation is. In choosing your canopy type and size, you want something that you can land out in the rough, occasionally downwind, and be happy. As I said, based on my short intro to the Spectre, I wouldn't load it over about 1.3, because it will not slow down enough for my old knees in out/no-wind conditions. The first part of the flare will feel stronger/faster with the smaller canopy, and it will "swoop" farther, but there is no way that the smaller canopy of the same design can be made to go as slow before it stops flying and you have to touch down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites StearmanR985 0 #14 May 4, 2004 Gary, I received this advice as well. I will defininetly keep that in mind from now on. You are right, there is plenty of room elsewhere. Thanks Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites davelepka 4 #15 May 4, 2004 If I'm not mistaken, one of YOUR chosen headings for this thread is 'Decisions'. My post was outlining several bad decisions you made. The first was being that close to another canopy in the pattern. The only excuse for this is if your DZ was droping multiple turbine loads on paralel jump runs ala Wolrd freefall Conevention. Was that the case? Planning 2000 ft earlier would have had you taking steps not to converge on that langing area at the same time as other canopies, or at least only at the same time as jumpers you have flown with 100's of times before, and know their patterns and behaviors. Your next mistake was using your front risers in any way to avoid accidents. Front risers make things happen faster. Do you really think that a last minute change in plan, down in the pattern on final is the place to be speeding things up? Your brakes are ALWAYS the better choice when changing plans close to the ground. The fact that powerlines were invloved, and a freeway is another inidcator poor decision making. Don't want to land in power lines or on a freeway? DON"T FLY OVER THEM. You should have learned that in canopy control 101. Your last poor decision was selecting your WL. Your two previous errors show that you are not immune to the rookie mistakes that have injured or killed many jumpers in the last few years. Yes, your WL didn't contribute much to these incidents (and having two in one weekend should be a wake up call), but if you read my post, I stated that an overly aggressive WL will make accidents worse. Lucky for you, there was no actual accident this weekend. There's always next weekend though, keep at it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites StearmanR985 0 #16 May 4, 2004 As long as you have come to the understanding that my WL had little if anything to do with this situation. I realized my mistakes even before I got to the ground that day. You have pointed out what I had already realized and what I have already been advised of. Do try to keep up with the thread if you are going to reply, it would be greatly appreciated. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ianmdrennan 2 #17 May 4, 2004 Sorry but Dave is correct. Your wingloading (whether high or not) played a part in dropping you into the group below you sooner than expected. Regardless of wingloading it's your responsibility to fit into the pattern below you. Higher wingloading/smaller canopy means that comes up faster and needs to be identified and dealt with higher. It's not as irrelevant as you think. Blue ones, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 643 #18 May 4, 2004 If we look at this from a historical perspective, only the first guy and the last guy get clear shots at the 3cm disc. Everyone else has to fly a conservative pattern. If you don't enjoy flying your canopy in a crowd, then you should start thinking about vertical separation before opening. If you want to land first, open low (2 grand-ish) and immediately spiral down below the rest of the pack. If you want to land last, then open high(3 gran-ish) and sit up there in half brakes until most of the other canopies have landed. Smart jumpers plan to keep their brains a mile/minute ahead of their canopies. Re-inventing the plan at 300 feet over wires demonstrates lack of planing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites StearmanR985 0 #19 May 4, 2004 Riggerrob, Blunt but exactly the type of advice I need to hear. I am grateful for your constructive criticism and your guidance. Jeff Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites davelepka 4 #20 May 4, 2004 ***As long as you have come to the understanding that my WL had little if anything to do with this situation. Do try to keep up with the thread if you are going to reply, it would be greatly appreciated. ----------------------------------------------------- As others have pointed out, your WL does have an effect on evrerything you do under canopy. My point has always been that this situation should be an idicator to you that shit does happen under canopy, and your inexperience is a direct contributor to the amount of shit. Instead of looking back, and being glad nothing happened, why not look ahead, and do something to prevent what is most likely going to happen. Do try to keep up with reality if you are going to skydive, it would be greatly appreciated. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites StearmanR985 0 #21 May 4, 2004 QuoteSorry but Dave is correct. Your wingloading (whether high or not) played a part in dropping you into the group below you sooner than expected. Regardless of wingloading it's your responsibility to fit into the pattern below you. Higher wingloading/smaller canopy means that comes up faster and needs to be identified and dealt with higher. It's not as irrelevant as you think. Blue ones, Ian I didn't drop in on a group. He and I were the only canopies on the x-wind leg that were anywhere near one another. I had established my spot first but since we all share the air I kept an eye out for other traffic. He came in nice and gentle beside me but because he came in later he was turning and lost a bit of altitude as compared to me. I did ask him later and he said he never saw me. Anyhow, this put him slightly below me. At this point I was thinkking no biggie I will just follow him in (not too literally). I have landed with others before with no problem. But, he kept drifting towards me, closer and closer and finally I bailed. Obviously I chose the wrong way to bail. Anyhow, he was never in any danger of me and at the time that is all I cared about. The correct solution was so simple it is ridiculous, (I beat myself up for my own stupidity far more than anyone else can) a little toggle to slow down and wait to see where exactly he was going and all I had to do then is follow him in. Jeff Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites StearmanR985 0 #22 May 4, 2004 Okay, I give in. I am now a crispy critter. And not from the power lines. Jeff a.k.a. Mr. Charcoal P.S. I know, everyone here is trying to keep it safe. Well, the demo goes back on Monday so not to worry I shall soon be back on my Tri. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pilotdave 0 #23 May 5, 2004 Why not demo a 170 (or whatever size your instructors would recommend) next and see how ya like it. I'm not sure what your motivation for going to such a high wingloading is, but you might find a bigger canopy is just as fun but might help keep you out of trouble (or at least keep you from getting yelled at). It's also another opportunity to try a different type of canopy too, if you want. You'd get more time under canopy too. I couldn't believe how short canopy rides got when I switched from my PD 9 cell to a sabre2 a size smaller. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bodypilot1 0 #24 May 5, 2004 Quote I know, everyone here is trying to keep it safe. EXACTLY!!!!www.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites twnsnd 1 #25 May 5, 2004 QuoteI had established my spot first but since we all share the air I kept an eye out for other traffic. Apparently not. Did you just think it would be cool to do some crw on the crosswind leg? All I am saying is that it is all about planning ahead. Know that there will be a problem before it occurs. You admitted that you saw him before it became a problem, yet you let it become a problem. -We are the Swoophaters. We have travelled back in time to hate on your swoops.- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. 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davelepka 4 #10 May 3, 2004 Not to get off topic, but I will, aren't you the same guy who had his WL questioned in reference to your Spectre 150 demo (rhetorical question). These are prime examples of bad desicion making as a result of in-experience. This is how accidents happen. Not listening to others who question your WL is how accidents get worse. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StearmanR985 0 #11 May 3, 2004 Quote Not to get off topic, but I will, aren't you the same guy who had his WL questioned in reference to your Spectre 150 demo (rhetorical question). These are prime examples of bad desicion making as a result of in-experience. This is how accidents happen. Not listening to others who question your WL is how accidents get worse. My WL had nothing to do with this situation. The real topic is making proper decisions with regards to others that are also in the air. In both instances I made the proper decision of giving the other pilots more space since neither one was aware of my location (BTW, I did fly the proper pattern). But, on Sunday the manner in which I went about giving the other jumper room was incorrect. I put MYSELF (and only me) in danger when I really didn't have to. Keep on topic please. Jeff Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #12 May 3, 2004 Actually, your WL4'ing played a factor in this situation. If you were under a lighter loaded canopy you would not have decended into the pattern so fast and would have been much less likey to have have been reaching up to grab the front risers. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure in these situations... Avoid getting behind the curve and its all easy from then on.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
headoverheels 334 #13 May 3, 2004 Hey Jeff, Avoid the temptation to always be landing on the smooth grass area when there is traffic around. That's a pretty small area for a full otter load, depending on how the vertical separation is. In choosing your canopy type and size, you want something that you can land out in the rough, occasionally downwind, and be happy. As I said, based on my short intro to the Spectre, I wouldn't load it over about 1.3, because it will not slow down enough for my old knees in out/no-wind conditions. The first part of the flare will feel stronger/faster with the smaller canopy, and it will "swoop" farther, but there is no way that the smaller canopy of the same design can be made to go as slow before it stops flying and you have to touch down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StearmanR985 0 #14 May 4, 2004 Gary, I received this advice as well. I will defininetly keep that in mind from now on. You are right, there is plenty of room elsewhere. Thanks Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #15 May 4, 2004 If I'm not mistaken, one of YOUR chosen headings for this thread is 'Decisions'. My post was outlining several bad decisions you made. The first was being that close to another canopy in the pattern. The only excuse for this is if your DZ was droping multiple turbine loads on paralel jump runs ala Wolrd freefall Conevention. Was that the case? Planning 2000 ft earlier would have had you taking steps not to converge on that langing area at the same time as other canopies, or at least only at the same time as jumpers you have flown with 100's of times before, and know their patterns and behaviors. Your next mistake was using your front risers in any way to avoid accidents. Front risers make things happen faster. Do you really think that a last minute change in plan, down in the pattern on final is the place to be speeding things up? Your brakes are ALWAYS the better choice when changing plans close to the ground. The fact that powerlines were invloved, and a freeway is another inidcator poor decision making. Don't want to land in power lines or on a freeway? DON"T FLY OVER THEM. You should have learned that in canopy control 101. Your last poor decision was selecting your WL. Your two previous errors show that you are not immune to the rookie mistakes that have injured or killed many jumpers in the last few years. Yes, your WL didn't contribute much to these incidents (and having two in one weekend should be a wake up call), but if you read my post, I stated that an overly aggressive WL will make accidents worse. Lucky for you, there was no actual accident this weekend. There's always next weekend though, keep at it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StearmanR985 0 #16 May 4, 2004 As long as you have come to the understanding that my WL had little if anything to do with this situation. I realized my mistakes even before I got to the ground that day. You have pointed out what I had already realized and what I have already been advised of. Do try to keep up with the thread if you are going to reply, it would be greatly appreciated. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #17 May 4, 2004 Sorry but Dave is correct. Your wingloading (whether high or not) played a part in dropping you into the group below you sooner than expected. Regardless of wingloading it's your responsibility to fit into the pattern below you. Higher wingloading/smaller canopy means that comes up faster and needs to be identified and dealt with higher. It's not as irrelevant as you think. Blue ones, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #18 May 4, 2004 If we look at this from a historical perspective, only the first guy and the last guy get clear shots at the 3cm disc. Everyone else has to fly a conservative pattern. If you don't enjoy flying your canopy in a crowd, then you should start thinking about vertical separation before opening. If you want to land first, open low (2 grand-ish) and immediately spiral down below the rest of the pack. If you want to land last, then open high(3 gran-ish) and sit up there in half brakes until most of the other canopies have landed. Smart jumpers plan to keep their brains a mile/minute ahead of their canopies. Re-inventing the plan at 300 feet over wires demonstrates lack of planing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StearmanR985 0 #19 May 4, 2004 Riggerrob, Blunt but exactly the type of advice I need to hear. I am grateful for your constructive criticism and your guidance. Jeff Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #20 May 4, 2004 ***As long as you have come to the understanding that my WL had little if anything to do with this situation. Do try to keep up with the thread if you are going to reply, it would be greatly appreciated. ----------------------------------------------------- As others have pointed out, your WL does have an effect on evrerything you do under canopy. My point has always been that this situation should be an idicator to you that shit does happen under canopy, and your inexperience is a direct contributor to the amount of shit. Instead of looking back, and being glad nothing happened, why not look ahead, and do something to prevent what is most likely going to happen. Do try to keep up with reality if you are going to skydive, it would be greatly appreciated. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StearmanR985 0 #21 May 4, 2004 QuoteSorry but Dave is correct. Your wingloading (whether high or not) played a part in dropping you into the group below you sooner than expected. Regardless of wingloading it's your responsibility to fit into the pattern below you. Higher wingloading/smaller canopy means that comes up faster and needs to be identified and dealt with higher. It's not as irrelevant as you think. Blue ones, Ian I didn't drop in on a group. He and I were the only canopies on the x-wind leg that were anywhere near one another. I had established my spot first but since we all share the air I kept an eye out for other traffic. He came in nice and gentle beside me but because he came in later he was turning and lost a bit of altitude as compared to me. I did ask him later and he said he never saw me. Anyhow, this put him slightly below me. At this point I was thinkking no biggie I will just follow him in (not too literally). I have landed with others before with no problem. But, he kept drifting towards me, closer and closer and finally I bailed. Obviously I chose the wrong way to bail. Anyhow, he was never in any danger of me and at the time that is all I cared about. The correct solution was so simple it is ridiculous, (I beat myself up for my own stupidity far more than anyone else can) a little toggle to slow down and wait to see where exactly he was going and all I had to do then is follow him in. Jeff Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StearmanR985 0 #22 May 4, 2004 Okay, I give in. I am now a crispy critter. And not from the power lines. Jeff a.k.a. Mr. Charcoal P.S. I know, everyone here is trying to keep it safe. Well, the demo goes back on Monday so not to worry I shall soon be back on my Tri. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #23 May 5, 2004 Why not demo a 170 (or whatever size your instructors would recommend) next and see how ya like it. I'm not sure what your motivation for going to such a high wingloading is, but you might find a bigger canopy is just as fun but might help keep you out of trouble (or at least keep you from getting yelled at). It's also another opportunity to try a different type of canopy too, if you want. You'd get more time under canopy too. I couldn't believe how short canopy rides got when I switched from my PD 9 cell to a sabre2 a size smaller. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #24 May 5, 2004 Quote I know, everyone here is trying to keep it safe. EXACTLY!!!!www.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
twnsnd 1 #25 May 5, 2004 QuoteI had established my spot first but since we all share the air I kept an eye out for other traffic. Apparently not. Did you just think it would be cool to do some crw on the crosswind leg? All I am saying is that it is all about planning ahead. Know that there will be a problem before it occurs. You admitted that you saw him before it became a problem, yet you let it become a problem. -We are the Swoophaters. We have travelled back in time to hate on your swoops.- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
