I did it

[Ron 10]

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At some point, bigger is NOT better. Try jumping that 900 sq. ft. canopy I posted a link to and get back to me on how that experience goes. Wait for a nice windy, turbulant day. You should be fine.

Now, that's about the W/L you get putting an 80 pound first-jump student under a Raven 4.

And I have seen 100 pound FJS under Raven IV before...Never seen a student die yet

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Oh, and end-cell closures are not dangerous? Better contact the USPA and enlighten them, because this is from the SIM re. evaluation of end cell closures:


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c. end-cell closure:

(1) Pull both toggles to the bottom of the stroke and hold them until the end cells open, then release them smoothly.

(2) Alternatively, hold down both back risers.

(3) If the end cells can't be cleared, evaluate controllability and flare before reaching the decide-and-act altitude of 2,500 feet.

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Sounds like they recommend chopping a canopy when you can't clear the mal. Hmmmmmm. Sounds dangerous.

You should check to see if you can control a canopy before your decision altitude all the time. The USPA says to check for control even with a canopy that looks perfect.


They also define End Cell closure as :

END CELL CLOSURE: Deflated end cell. Routine opening problem, usually correctable

"Routine opening problem" does not sound dangerous to me.

Edit...Added the whole section cat b:
2. Review common problems at the training harness (tandem students may review while under canopy):


a. correct response to line twist:


(1) Spread the risers and kick to untwist, but release the brakes only after clearing the twist.

(2) If spinning, twist the risers to untwist the lines and stabilize canopy, then kick to untwist the risers.

(3) By 2,500 feet, be sure line twist can be corrected at a safe altitude, or initiate emergency procedures.
b. slider up:


(1) Bring both toggles to the bottom of the stroke to slow the canopy and pump at the bottom of the control range.

(2) Alternatively, pump the back risers.

(3) The slider needs to be at least halfway down for landing.

(4) Repeat remedial procedures twice or until reaching the decide-and-act altitude of 2,500 feet.

c. end-cell closure:


(1) Pull both toggles to the bottom of the stroke and hold them until the end cells open, then release them smoothly.

(2) Alternatively, hold down both back risers.

(3) If the end cells can't be cleared, evaluate controllability and flare before reaching the decide-and-act altitude of 2,500 feet.

d. If the canopy has opened normally but turns on its own, be sure both brakes are released.

e. Evaluate controllability and flare before reaching the decide-and-act altitude of 2,500 feet

So they suggest that you do a controllability check before 2500 feet...W even tell students to check a perfect canopy....I guess that makes perfectly open canopies dangerous?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[EvilLurker 2]

Stuck slider or end-cell closures are usually correctable. If they are not correctable by 2,500 feet and you don't feel that the canopy is fully controllable, it's time to initiate your EPs (according to the SIM).

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"Routine opening problem" does not sound dangerous to me.

Line twists are a "routine opening problem", too. Something "routine" can be dangerous if it's allowed to progress and become the first link in a chain of events. I flew powered parachutes quite a bit, and the one thing you wait for before applying takeoff power is fully inflated end cells. Why do you think that is?

[EvilLurker 2]

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(3) If the end cells can't be cleared, evaluate controllability and flare before reaching the decide-and-act altitude of 2,500 feet.

Guess what the "act" part of this is, Ron. Why would you chop a canopy that doesn't represent a danger?

You never did explain why a ram air canopy doesn't maintain its shape and fly normally after a cutaway. It is, after all, still loaded, correct? Often times you can make very valid observations by studying the extreme limits of a scenario.

[wmw999 2,551]

I'm not a moderator, and none of the moderators of this forum are online right now.
But we seem to be getting deep into a was-not/was-too kind of a situation. Can it keep moving forward, or maybe just rest for a few minutes.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Ron 10]

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Stuck slider or end-cell closures are usually correctable. If they are not correctable by 2,500 feet and you don't feel that the canopy is fully controllable, it's time to initiate your EPs (according to the SIM).

If ANYTHING makes it so you don't feel you can safely land by 2500 feet you get rid of it.

The fact that they call end cell closures "Routine" makes them common and not a problem...They add a control check in like they do for EVERY canopy even if it looks good.

Its part of the equipment check for EVERY deployment.

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I flew powered parachutes quite a bit, and the one thing you wait for before applying takeoff power is fully inflated end cells. Why do you think that is?

Don't know, I don't have much expereince with powered parachutes. But I do know that closed end cells are a non issue in SKYDIVING. I have seen many students land with them, and I have had them several times.

Out of 3600 jumps I have never felt like I needed to cut away end cell closures, or that they were dangerous.

My buddy is a paraglider, former skydiver and he says the canopies are vastly different. I can only assume that the same is true for Powered Parachutes.

And that just like you will not have a bag lock with your powered parachute there are things that with a powered parachute are bad that will not be an issue with skydiving gear.

Closed end cells are one such thing.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[EvilLurker 2]

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I'm not a moderator, and none of the moderators of this forum are online right now.
But we seem to be getting deep into a was-not/was-too kind of a situation. Can it keep moving forward, or maybe just rest for a few minutes.

Sure, sorry about that. I'm still very much of the opinion that a very lightly loaded canopy can exhibit some nasty and dangerous characteristics that make it more dangerous than a canopy that is loaded within the design parameters. Ron disagrees. Make your own opinion, folks.

[Ron 10]

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Sure, sorry about that. I'm still very much of the opinion that a very lightly loaded canopy can exhibit some nasty and dangerous characteristics that make it more dangerous than a canopy that is loaded within the design parameters. Ron disagrees. Make your own opinion, folks

Where did I say "not within Design parameters".

I have said several times that a light wingload is not more dangerous. I have ALSO said (from my FIRST post in this thread):

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"Light WL are not dangerous for the most part if you observe some really simple things. I have over 1000 jumps on canopies loaded less than 1:1 and I am still here.

Anyone that tells you that a light WL is dangerous is full of it. *unless the DESIGN makes it so, and there are VERY few of those canopies."

If the design says a min WL is required, then you would be stupid to not follow that recomandation. But then that would be DESIGN, not just a light WL.

I am willing to bet that your powered parachutes are MUCH better and efficiant wings than skydiving canopies. That can make the issues you are talking about issues.

But with over 12 years in this sport I have yet to see end cell closure or any light WL issue be so dangerous that a higher WL is better.

There are stories of WELL loaded (2:1) canopies folding up in turbulance. so its pretty clear that the only way to be safe is not to jump in crappy conditions, not overload a canopy.

Just as always this has turned into people slamming people and I doubt a single person learned a single thing.

As always people hold onto the beliefs they WANT and refuse to listen to anyone else.

Here is a tidbit....If I were powered parachuting I'd spend more time listening than talking since I know they are different and while they both have canopies...they are worlds apart.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Squeak 17]

I have this mental image of you guys standing around a bonfire peeing on each others boots

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[Ron 10]

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I have this mental image of you guys standing around a bonfire peeing on each others boots

At least you said boots, not Tevas

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334