Jumping at a DZ that requires an AAD

[billvon 3,090]

>An S&TA who bans a low time jumper from jumping a small canopy,
> but allows Clint Clawson to jump whatever he wants isn't being
> hypocritical because he is doing it for safety reasons which are
> apparent.

And a DZO that requires cypreses isn't being hypocritical because he is doing it for safety reasons which are apparent. AAD's have saved several people at the DZ's I jump at, and have never killed anyone. Not to say that won't change, but so far they are batting 100%.

>But don't tell me I have to have an AAD for "safety reasons" while
>people are screwing themselves in doing hook turns.

Some places do just that. for the same reason you can't have a Velocity 90 when experienced people are screwing themselves in doing hook turns under similar canopies. Want to jump the Velocity 90? Go to a DZ that lets you do that. Want to jump without an AAD? Go to a DZ that lets you do that.

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

hook turns.

try it worded this way -

"It's just as unfair/ridiculous to require AADs as it would be to ban hook turns."

In other words, you got excited at someone who is on your side.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Gravitymaster 0]

If the Police Chief where I lived announced he was going to make the streets safer by pulling people over for doing 10 mph over the speed limit and at the same time did nothing to stop drunk drivers who weren't exceeding the speed limit, would you say his concerned about safety was misplaced and disingenuous?

[AndyMan 7]

Quote

Look at all the injuries and fatalities because of hook turns that have been reported on this site in the last 5 years. Look at all the saves by an AAD

The problem is that the second half is impossible to quantity. Ever since Airtec went to field replaceable cutters, we simply don't know how many people get saved by AAD's.

It's much easier to see how many people die without one. For example, a small Milwaukee area DZ has had 3 fatalities recently all that involved low-pulls or no-pulls. It's clear that if they had a mandatory AAD rule (that included it being activated), they'd have 3 friends still be alive today.

It's clear that there are pockets of DZ's around the country where no-pulls are still common. These seem to be the same DZ's that are considering making them manditory. These discussions rarely come up when everyone is using one anyways.

I don't particularly care for excessive rules, I'd prefer that using one just be part of the DZ culture. That seems to be the case at most DZ's these days. I wish the lone holdouts would quite holding out, this discussion woudlnt' even be relevant.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[christelsabine 1]

Quote

Quote

You obviously need a lot more jumps, a lot more experience and to read/learn a lot more...I just do
hope, you always will be capable to pull silver
before AAD fires.

Hopefully, newbies will not trust in your statements.
And yes, skydiving "appears" to be dangerous. From
time to time, I mean.

As per your post, ... main thing is, you have faith into yourself....

Holy Moses, did you ever listen to any instructor??

I really can't imagine what he wrote that would cause you to respond this way.

What do you want him to say? That he's going to rely on the AAD to get his canopy out for him?

I'm also not sure that someone with only three years in the sport should be referring to anyone else as a newbie, either.

What is so hard to understand in his/my post?

I do not "want him to say" anything, I replied to things he said. I'm surprised you want me to explain.

FYI: Just reduce 1 yr b/c of a broken leg, and I am in the sport for only 2 yrs

So I better STFU and listen to .. whom? 50 jump wonders or base jumpers?

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[outrager 6]

Yo !

I am curious why nobody brought up a subject of a lawsuit yet? While this is a ridiculous idea for most of the world, in US it may shift the balance of a mandatory AAD battle.

While a fatality caused by AAD is less likely then the one prevented by AAD, recent trends have been shortening this gap a bit. A lawsuit brought up by an AAD-related accident at a mandotory-AAD DZ will have exponentially higher chances to succeed. It will be supported by a lot of very emotional people - this time not whuffos but skydivers. While i regularily hate lawsuits i may just make an exception and support one too.

It obviously is an owner's right to require AADs, but it will put him in a very vulnerable position when somebody unwilling to use an AAD, but forced to do so, goes in.

At bare minimum, there needs to be a common-sense compromise with reasonable no-AAD or AAD-off exceptions (swooping, CRW etc).

Hopefully the shaky balance of risk vs. benefits of AADs will remain with jumpers and not DZs or national organisations. In US in particular, the ever-evil lawyers may do some good here, for a change.

Oh, to answer the poll: i have an AAD and i would continue to jump at such DZ every now and then. I use common sense, and like to feel as safe as possible thus keeping my AAD on most of the time. I would turn it off in certain circumstances, though, using the same common sense. I suspect that forcing one to turn it on in such sircumstances, given the very public recent data, may go beyond civil lawsuit directly towards attempted mansloughter charges.

bsbd!

Yuri.

[RhondaLea 4]

Quote

What is so hard to understand in his/my post?

Nothing in his; everything in yours. He didn't write anything wrong.

Quote

I do not "want him to say" anything, I replied to things he said. I'm surprised you want me to explain.

Nothing you said made any sense to me. There was nothing wrong with what he wrote.

Quote

FYI: Just reduce 1 yr b/c of a broken leg, and I am in the sport for only 2 yrs

So I better STFU and listen to .. whom? 50 jump wonders or base jumpers?

I didn't say who you should listen to. I just find it ironic that someone with so few years in the sport is already referring to others as "newbies."

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[christelsabine 1]

Lady, my reference to "newbies" was general, not adressed to anyone specific. I consider myself beeing one. Where's your problem?

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[billvon 3,090]

>If the Police Chief where I lived announced he was going to make
> the streets safer by pulling people over for doing 10 mph over the
> speed limit and at the same time did nothing to stop drunk drivers
> who weren't exceeding the speed limit, would you say his concerned
> about safety was misplaced and disingenuous?

Bad analogy; you cannot easily choose to not drive in your town. And the police chief does not own the roads.

To make it a better analogy:

If the guy who ran your local hardware store required people to wear shoes in his store to prevent foot injuries (and resulting lawsuits) but allowed children in - would you call him a hypocrite?

[tso-d_chris 0]

Quote

Nothing you said made any sense to me.

How many languges do you speak? Methinks you've been reading too much legalese to understand almost fluent English.

I may not agree with her, but she is easy enough to understand.

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

>
To make it a better analogy:

If the guy who ran your local hardware store required people to wear shoes in his store to prevent foot injuries (and resulting lawsuits) but allowed children in - would you call him a hypocrite?

I'll make it even more parallel

If the guy who ran your local hardware store required people to wear shoes in his store to prevent shop accidents (and resulting lawsuits) but allowed children in (even though over half of his shops accidents last year involved unattended children) - would you call him a hypocrite?

aside - I'd say yes and ask him if getting a 10% bonus for each shoe sale from the local shoe store had anything to do with it.

I think AADs are a great 'choice' to make. But a DZ will prevent injuries more affectively by having a policy on behavior, not discretionary purchases. (i.e., allow swooping, but require a training level first, crack down on frequent poor skill swoopers - don't just 'talk' to them', etc. IF someone has a low pull problem, require that person to have an AAD, else they are off the DZ. Drinking, drugs, too big of groups for beginners, etc.)

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[RhondaLea 4]

Quote

Quote

Nothing you said made any sense to me.

How many languges do you speak? Methinks you've been reading too much legalese to understand almost fluent English.

I may not agree with him, but he is easy enough to understand.

I didn't see that his comments bore any relation to the post about which he was commenting.

I do, however, see you coming to work one morning and finding the preamble to the constitution written on your windows in ivory soap.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[christelsabine 1]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Nothing you said made any sense to me.

How many languges do you speak? Methinks you've been reading too much legalese to understand almost fluent English.

I may not agree with him, but he is easy enough to understand.

I didn't see that his comments bore any relation to the post about which he was commenting.

I do, however, see you coming to work one morning and finding the preamble to the constitution written on your windows in ivory soap.

Really, that's hurting me:

I am not a "him", Holy Moly,
I am Christel from Germany, a girl, a woman, a mother, trying to be(come) a safe skydiver, to learn, to listen...

cya

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[tso-d_chris 0]

Quote

I didn't see that his comments bore any relation to the post about which he was commenting.

I do, however, see you coming to work one morning and finding the preamble to the constitution written on your windows in ivory soap.

rl

We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, ensure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense and secure the blessings of liberty for ourselves and our posterity do ordain and establish this Constitution of the United States of America.

Or something like that. I haven't had to recite it since eighth grade!

Please don't soap the windows!

[Guest 1010]

Quote

What is so hard to understand in his/my post?

>Holy Moses, did you ever listen to any instructor??

RL's question is the same as mine (and I am typing gently in as nice a manner as possible, really
About his post - I'd have prefered it if Iceburner had said: "If they I go in w/a no pull, it's most likely their my fault." But he seems to know what he is doing.

On the substance of his post - a bud of mine had her life saved by an AAD. (Tail strike/uncouscious after emergency exit.) She does everything in the sport better than I do; she was much more experienced than I'll be for several years, when it saved her. I'm getting an AAD with my new rig.

You can have it good, fast, or cheap: pick two.

[christelsabine 1]

Quote

Quote

What is so hard to understand in his/my post?

>Holy Moses, did you ever listen to any instructor??

RL's question is the same as mine (and I am typing gently in as nice a manner as possible, really
About his post - I'd have prefered it if Iceburner had said: "If they I go in w/a no pull, it's most likely their my fault." But he seems to know what he is doing.

On the substance of his post - a bud of mine had her life saved by an AAD. (Tail strike/uncouscious after emergency exit.) She does everything in the sport better than I do; she was much more experienced than I'll be for several years, when it saved her. I'm getting an AAD with my new rig.

That is exactly my idea. Fully OK. That's what AAD's are made for.

What in my eyes is not OK, if someone with 50 jumps (OK, RL, I only have few more), is absolutely sure beeing able to pull silver before AAD fires. What, the heck, do I know with my few jumps? I intend to pull silver, yes. But, if my fellow jumper is weak-sighted enough to fall on my head in freefall before, I cannot decide anything.

Does that answer your question?

Complaining about the high cost of an AAD is OK, too. Mine is a used one. I paid about Euro600 for it. It's working, I trust in it. I never would jump w/o it beeing switched on.

If a jumper with 50 jumps is of the opinion, he wasted money when purchasing a Cypres/or any AAD, he should stop jumping. If same jumper likes to express what thrill it is to be in danger when jumping, he might enjoy it. For himself or, if he needs, in front of friends. Not in public.
That's my answer to you and to RL, too.

Christel

PS: I am an alien. Perhaps, I misunderstood something. If it's like that, pls accept my apoligize.

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[Guest 1010]

Quote

PS: I am an alien. Perhaps, I misunderstood something. If it's like that, pls accept my apoligize.

Thanks for explaining your post, CS. No need to apologize! I saw the bold remark in your post and paid too much attention to it.

Your issues were with the substance of his post. Reasonable people can disagree on his (and your) remarks.

Thank you!

You can have it good, fast, or cheap: pick two.

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

Of course. It is up to you to determine which backups you want. It is up to the DZO to determine what he wants jumped at his DZ. If you do not like his requirements you can go somewhere else. If lots of people don't like his requirements, he goes out of business and someone else takes over. Problem solved.

Unfortunately, those sort of market forces tend to fail on single issue matters that only concern a small percentage of users. Look at the lot for smokers in California. It's the classic democracy of three wolves and one sheep.

I'm not going to guess (this time) on the AAD ownership level. If it's very high, then there isn't a lot of business to be gained by not requiring it. The motivations that drove DZs to adopt the rule would reign. I'd expect that the SoCal basin and the Bay Area would always have a Lodi, but in regions that only have 2 or 3 DZs, not so sure. Those jumpers could just be out of luck, esp those with CRW and/or multiple rigs. And of course right now, the concerns of the aggressive swoopers.

Personally, the middle ground codified in many other countries that mandate it until X jumps seems more appealing, more fair.

[RhondaLea 4]

Quote

What in my eyes is not OK, if someone with 50 jumps (OK, RL, I only have few more), is absolutely sure beeing able to pull silver before AAD fires.

Does that answer your question?

It's exactly what I was afraid you meant.

Quote

If a jumper with 50 jumps is of the opinion, he wasted money when purchasing a Cypres/or any AAD, he should stop jumping. If same jumper likes to express what thrill it is to be in danger when jumping, he might enjoy it. For himself or, if he needs, in front of friends. Not in public.
That's my answer to you and to RL, too.

In my opinion, anyone who thinks s/he needs an AAD has no business jumping. Anyone who does not sincerely believe that s/he will pull before the AAD fires shouldn't even be near a dropzone.

It's that simple.

If you think you're not in danger on every single jump, think again, because you're dead wrong.

And if you really believe that the perception of danger is not what draws many, if not most, people to skydiving, check with any dz about the increase in tandem/AFF reservations after a fatality or serious accident is reported in the news.

Skydiving is dangerous, and while it is possible to minimize risk, the fatality reports say that even some of the very best and very safest skydivers still die, ownership of an AAD notwithstanding.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[billvon 3,090]

>Personally, the middle ground codified in many other countries that
>mandate it until X jumps seems more appealing, more fair.

That's the case around here as well. The one AAD-required DZ (Otay) requires a cypres up until jump #1000.

[Gravitymaster 0]

Quote

Quote

>
To make it a better analogy:

If the guy who ran your local hardware store required people to wear shoes in his store to prevent foot injuries (and resulting lawsuits) but allowed children in - would you call him a hypocrite?

I'll make it even more parallel

If the guy who ran your local hardware store required people to wear shoes in his store to prevent shop accidents (and resulting lawsuits) but allowed children in (even though over half of his shops accidents last year involved unattended children) - would you call him a hypocrite?

aside - I'd say yes and ask him if getting a 10% bonus for each shoe sale from the local shoe store had anything to do with it.

I think AADs are a great 'choice' to make. But a DZ will prevent injuries more affectively by having a policy on behavior, not discretionary purchases. (i.e., allow swooping, but require a training level first, crack down on frequent poor skill swoopers - don't just 'talk' to them', etc. IF someone has a low pull problem, require that person to have an AAD, else they are off the DZ. Drinking, drugs, too big of groups for beginners, etc.)

Well said.

[Iceburner 0]

first, forgive this "50 jump wonder" for not responding sooner...the Marines have taken a lot of my time with training, but so be it.

i never claimed to be a good skydiver, all i claimed was that i have faith in myself, and this faith that i have that i'd pull silver would have saved me $1200+ if i would have had the option. I understand that myself as a "50 jump wonder" am a newbie, and i dont claim to be anything that i'm not. Perhaps it's the Marines, but i dont talk myself up if i can't back it up. I work on RW, and a bit of freeflying, and am confident in my emergancy procedures. Simply put, i could really use $1200 right now, but i didn't have the choice. So instead of going from a "50 jump wonder" to a "70 jump wonder" these past weeks, i'm working extra to make up for the $ that my rig, AAD, and student classes have cost me.

I also understand that the 1 time MY AAD fires, it will be worth the $1200. However, requiring people to buy one i believe is wrong. You can strongly suggest a purchase, show the "50 jump wonder" all of it's benifits and allow HIM/HER to make an informed decision. Charging a machine gun nest, or an enemy position isn't the brightest thing to do, and you can argue skydiving w/out an AAD is the same. However, it's a decision that i'd like to have the choice to make, knowing full well that the decision I make could cost me my life.

on another note, the people that have burned in (that i have read about), and i know there are other circumstances, "could" be here because of an AAD OR if they had followed their emergancy procedures. Pondering on what "could" have happened, i believe is a mistake. I think this argument is much like the argument on if the death penalty "deters" crime...but perhaps that is my own tangent.

[nate_1979 9]

Just a note that there are usually used ones for sale, get you started for much cheaper than $1200

FGF #???
I miss the sky...
There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.

[livendive 8]

I don't have an AAD but am planning on putting one in my rig in the near future for AFF jumps. My opinion on AAD-mandatory DZ's won't change though, i.e. I will not jump at a DZ that requires them for anything other than student jumps.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[Iceburner 0]

Quote

Just a note that there are usually used ones for sale, get you started for much cheaper than $1200

the way i looked at it (probably incorrectly) is that a used one will require more money much sooner to update and all...and another reason i went with the newer one is because it was there, handy, and ment i could jump my rig that much sooner

• Quote