difference between HP canopies and everything else

[Jackpunx 0]

Hi,
I was reading something in the incidents section about a guy who jumped the wrong rig.. and ended up with a 96 HP (not sure what kind) instead of a 190 (?).
He cut away and landed the reserve..
My question is..
How different from a regular canopy is it.. If I had it over my head (im new) and I did a controllability check.. Would it react the same way as any other canopy other than it would be fast and smaller?
if I came in for a conservative landing.. Would it react the same?
I’m on demo gear.. I pay reaaalllly close attention to detail on the container. I had a packer double check me because he was packing two Talons.. One was mine.. I told him it was a T18 and had this stain on it and the other was a T6 . He laughed and complimented me on paying attention..
From being out on a busy weekend I can see this happening often.
Is it to dangerous to land? Im pretty sure I would try to land it if I was in this situation.. Would that be the right thing to do?
Thanks

Mark

[billvon 3,107]

>Is it to dangerous to land?

Depends on your skills and the controllability check. Can you turn it without scaring yourself, and can you flare it so the wing stays completely level? If so, you may be able to land it safely, but I'd make 100% sure it was into the wind, on a soft surface, prepared to PLF. You are still taking a significant risk though.

If you can't even do a good practice flare, or non-scary turns, get rid of it while you are still high enough to safely do so.

[Scrumpot 1]

The difference between a 190 STUDENT SQUARE, and a sub-100 HP Fully Eliptical?

Even with just a "controlability check" that you, as a 22-jump student upon opening would employ, WOULD SCARE THE LIVING SHIT OUT OF YOU!

Yes, you would IMMEDIATELY upon deployment KNOW (or should) you were F*CKED with that canopy, and I highly doubt you could survive even the most "conservative" of landings / landing approaches, again at your level, as you would "know" them. It takes a highly skilled and EXPERIENCED (through much time and concentration in PROGRESSIVELY downsizing) HP Canopy pilot to be able to successfully land a sub-100 fully eliptical HP. Absolutely!

Hope this helps answer your question!
I'm sure others will jump in here for you too, in order to give you maybe even a clearer explanation to all that as to more specifically why.

Blue Skies,
-Grant

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[Scrumpot 1]

Are you kidding me Bill?

Can you see a 22-jump student's even "controlability check" procedure, having NEVER even touched a canopy even REMOTELY close to this before being performed? Hmmmm.... Let's see:

- Deploy and opening (lets assume "normal" and on-heading)

- Reach up, release toggles (how many 22-jump students actually do even THAT smooth and evenly? ...but again, lets ASSUME they do)...

- (Student) Controllability check: Pull down right toggle ...OH SHIT!!!

They are now in a SPINNING DIVE the likes a STUDENT has NEVER seen before! Guaranteed!

You think they can/could handle (even) that??
I highly doubt it.

Although arguably chopping and thereby (most likely) going to only a 109 reserve might not be much better either!

Best course of action? ...Definitely don't ever put yourself into a situation where you have screwed up THIS BADLY! I think that was the entire point of that other post being referred to too, in the 1st place.

Blue Skies,
-Grant

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[ccowden 0]

I disagree. If somone with 22 jumps somehow opened and discovered they were under a 96 HP instead of their normal 190, it would be quite apparent that they had a canopy that was really scary to them. If they even as much as released the brakes on it, they would probably crap their pants. When I think of the difference my 190 was (2,000 jumps ago) compared to my 96 Velo (now), I know for a FACT that I would be quite aware that I was in a very scary situation.

I would recommend cutting away immediately upon recognizing that you were under a canopy that was way above your skill level. There is no way someone could do a contollabilty check, set up over a nice landing area AND be 100% sure they were into the wind. After all, they are used to flying their pattern and landing a 190. When are they going to figure all of this out? Are they going to learn how to fly a 96 HP canopy safely and conservatively on one flight?

Bottom line, YES it is dangerous to land. It is dangerous to even try turns beyond realizing you are under a canopy you are scared of. You would have no clue of what amount of altitude you would be losing or how quickly you will be too low and screwed when you are doing this controllability check.

[Jackpunx 0]

I agree you should take extra precautions in this area..
but all that goes down the drain when your in the air wishing you were on the ground.

I was just curious of how different they were.. I know by watching them that they are completely different..
but I saw a post where they suggested that if you do a practice flair you could end up upside down.. Is that from the lift/stall and then dive?
I guess part of my question are more about what the differences are..and repercussions of the same inputs.
its not a online lesson from a 190 progression to a sub 100 canopy...llol..
Im not sure the HP canopy is for me anyway even long term..
I do 3 or 4 buried 360's and I start to get light headed..lol
Although I have not hit my ass yet (plf) (all stand up landings and on target) Im sure it will happen some day.. and I'll be ready for it..
but for now.. I like the way my legs work.. so .. I think I'll stick with what they tell me to do..

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

Although arguably chopping and thereby (most likely) going to only a 109 reserve might not be much better either!

Best course of action? ...Definitely don't ever put yourself into a situation where you have screwed up THIS BADLY! I think that was the entire point of that other post being referred to too, in the 1st place.

I'd be afraid to chop for that reason, Grant. If it was a 96, odds are the reserve will be at least the same size, but all I know is the parachute is smaller than its supposed to be, and I now know how many people with 120s and 135s have smaller reserves.

So yeah, don't screw up like this. My bright, unusually (teal) colored rig has few cousins - the only ones I've seen are the student rigs at Elsinore.
All black may be easier to sell later, but so much harder to keep track of.

[ccowden 0]

VERY, VERY, VERY different. About the only thing similar is that they are both canopies.

I liken it to being used to renting skis and going down the bunny slope and then suddenly and without warning finding yourself on downhill racing skis on a double black diamond run. You knew how to stop on your other skis, but if you try the same technique now, you are going for a ride.

[phoenixlpr 0]

Quote

I'd be afraid to chop for that reason, Grant. If it was a 96, odds are the reserve will be at least the same size, but all I know is the parachute is smaller than its supposed to be, and I now know how many people with 120s and 135s have smaller reserves.

You would have still higher chance to survive that landing with the small reserve....

[Jackpunx 0]

Quote

VERY, VERY, VERY different. About the only thing similar is that they are both canopies.

I liken it to being used to renting skis and going down the bunny slope and then suddenly and without warning finding yourself on downhill racing skis on a double black diamond run. You knew how to stop on your other skis, but if you try the same technique now, you are going for a ride.

this makes sense to me..

[Scrumpot 1]

Quote

I'd be afraid to chop for that reason, Grant.

I was being somehwat rhetorical actually, and facetious with that part of my response. I was just somewhat surprised to see Billvon's posting on this, keeping in mind that we are talking to here, a 22 jump student! As now also said by Chris, in ACTUALITY, I think, this complete neophyte who does not even "understand" his even student canopy yet is gonna (and probably literally) crap his pants, probably immediately upon trying to unstow his toggles on this canopy! ...Let alone have ANY (relative) chance at all of successfully landing it!

Now that being said, an equally smaller reserve being not even a "good" situation for him either, granted; in the place of say a VX96 or something, a 7-cell 109 PD Reserve would at least give him a CHANCE.

My .02:

1. Never EVER get yourself there in the 1st place!
But if you do:

You are NOT gonna be able to land a "spinner"! And I next to guarantee before even both toggles were let fully up from the above (hypothetical - THANKFULLY) scenario, that is precisely what this 22 jump STUDENT would have...

2. Chop and go to your 7-cell (at least will be slightly more "docile" regardless of size) reserve.

Better to have SOME chance at that point rather than NONE, which I submit in reality, under the circumstances of the scenario given at least is more likely otherwise. I just don't see any way ANY 22-jump # level jumper is gonna survive the former AT ALL. But that's JMO.

Billvon has much more experience than I, and is an instructor, (where I am not) so maybe my perspective on that is all wet? DO you really see students now Bill, that you think after having a grand total of only 22 total jumps really CAN have even a chance of landing (successfully -even once by shear "luck") a HP 96 canopy?

-Grant

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[Jackpunx 0]

I think what Bill is saying is that some peoples/22jump student’s natural ability to adapt to a situation is dependent on weather or not to land the canopy.
Which means there is a possibility that they will be able to do the CC and not shit their pants.. that being the case although dangerous, they may be able to land it.

It would be like me putting you in a shifter kart if you have never driven any type of race car..
Some could do it.. Most cant..

[Scrumpot 1]

Quote

I guess part of my question are more about what the differences are..and repercussions of the same inputs.

Bottom line, and to answer this (which also hopefully helps) ...a difference in just flare pressure from one toggle to the next of only even about an inch or so will put you in a turn with this canopy (a HP 96) the likes you probably have not even seen with a FULL, ONE-TOGGLE TURN purposefully initiated on your student gear!

You will hit the ground and you will hit the ground HARD under such scenario, and I'm sorry, I just don't see ANY way you could successfully do it without having had significant experience (which at just 22 jumps simply does not exist) and PRACTICE. Even if all 22 of your landings under a student 190 were stand-up's. A 190 canopy is just so MONUMENTALLY MORE "FORGIVING" in comparison. ...There really is no comparison! It really is (IMHO) just that much "night and day".

As Chris points out, the ONLY comparison really, is that they are both canopy's. At you level though, that's pretty much where ALL other "comparison" ends!

Just don't "go there" any time soon, okay?
How's that?

Blues,
-Grant

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[Brains 2]

hey punx,
The first things you would notice would be: Lack of significant material over your head, incredibly squirly openings, extremely responsive and quick toggle turns. These canopies tend to "search" on openings and most must be flown during opening. Any slight variation of your body on the harness will cause a turn faster than burying a toggle on your student canopy. The descent rate will be much higher than you would be used to as well, however you may not realize this until it is too late. When it comes time to flare, you will notice an incredible amount of forward speed, this will scare the crap out of you for sure provided you have any left in you from the opening and/or controllability checks. Because of the increase in forward speed, a normal single stage flare will also cause you to climb in altitude, another thing a student canopy (normally) doesn't do.

Others have told you how dumb this is etc., i tried to answer your original question about what the differences are.

Never look down on someone, unless they are going down on you.

[billvon 3,107]

>Are you kidding me Bill?
>Can you see a 22-jump student's even "controlability check" procedure . . .

Yes, it would probably lead them to being very scared. And like I said above, if that happened, cut the small main away.

(ccowden said)

>I disagree. If somone with 22 jumps somehow opened and
>discovered they were under a 96 HP instead of their normal 190, it
> would be quite apparent that they had a canopy that was really scary
> to them. If they even as much as released the brakes on it, they
> would probably crap their pants.

Right. And if it scared them that much they would cut away. Which is what I said above. What are you disagreeing with?

>I would recommend cutting away immediately . . . .

Yikes! I wouldn't recommend this.

Let's take a real world example. Joe Newbie gets his rig from the packer who hooked up and packed his usual canopy, a Navigator 240. He jumps and pulls and - OH SHIT! It's smaller, it's going faster and it's the wrong color! What should he do? Should he be reaching for that cutaway handle?

No. A wise jumper will first determine what's going on. Is that new canopy his reserve, which he has probably never seen before? If so, he better determine where his main is, because it may be wrapped around the reserve but still not inflated. Cutting it away could be fatal. Or it could be going into a downplane, in which case disconnecting your RSL and cutting away would be a good idea. But you have to know that before you can take action.

But let's say he checks and it's his main; that careless packer gave him the wrong main. What main is it? All he knows is that it's faster and smaller. At 22 jumps he has very little experience in canopy performance, and you can't read that little red label under canopy. Should he cut away then?

Again, no. It would be foolish to cut away a good Pilot 210 and end up under a Raven 181, if that was the unknown new canopy.

So what should he do? Well, he already learned what to do in his first jump course. Release the brakes. Turn left and right. Flare. If he can do all that safely, chances are he can land the canopy and survive. If he pulls the toggle down and the canopy linetwists on him, then the decision is easy - not landable. Likewise, if he tries to flare and the canopy leans back, stalls, then goes shooting off in a scary direction, again - that's not landable with his skills. And if he has a Velocity 96, that's what will happen.

But let's say he tries that and the canopy behaves like a faster version of his canopy. In other words, like a Pilot 210, except he doesn't know that. He just knows he has a smaller canopy. If he can control the canopy, turn it safely, flare it evenly, he can likely land it. It had best be in the middle of the biggest softest area he can find, into the wind, in a good PLF position - but he will probably be OK.

Will anyone at 22 jumps be able to land a Velocity 96? Well, I know a few people who would likely have been able to pull it off, because they were naturals and weighed around 100 lbs soakng wet. But that controllability check will tell them whether they can pull it off no matter what their weight.

[ccowden 0]

I am disagreeing because even if someone in this situation could do a controllability check and not scare themselves, which I guess is possible, they are not afforded the time to do some turns, flares, decide they can land it, fly back to the dz, pick a good spot, face into the wind and land. That is why i say cutaway as soon as you determine this is a very small HP canopy that you are unsure about. That much will be clear.

Going from what they are used to, a student would be hard pressed to do all those tests and even remotely come close to hitting the dz. Let alone picking a nice soft area into the wind. Not to mention that when a student does their "student flare," on a 96 HP canopy, they are going to be taking a ride in an ambulance. There is just no way that a student with 22 jumps could determine that they could land this canopy safely until they actually tried to LAND it.

Doing a controllability check and a couple turns are quite a bit different than flying it back to the target and flaring it close to the ground.

If you look up and see an extremely small canopy that is very twitchy and aggressive and you have only landed a 190 or bigger, cutaway. It is a waste of time to go beyond that because you can, in no way, be prepared for flying it back to the landing area and flaring it. A seven cell reserve is a better option regardless os size.

[ccowden 0]

And your "going from a 240 to a 210" argument is really not what we are talking about here. The original post was a 190 to a 96. There is no way someone would look up and go, "Hmmm, it is a little smaller and a different color and turns a little quicker."

So let's not get too cute here. No, let's NOT take a "real world" example here. Let's take the example in the original post.

[Jackpunx 0]

The last couple of posts were great and answered my questions..
I want you guys to know that I was not probing flight instructions from you on a canopy that is no where near my comfort zone..
I just read something that seemed like it could happen pretty easily.... I pay attention to as many details that I can absorb...like size of container.. and weather it happed to me or to someone else.. its great info that you guys are putting out here..
What I’m hearing is.. if you cant do a controllability check.. then dump it.
Seems like a pretty simple rule and applies to any canopy including the one your flying on purpose.

but feel free to argue your points as Im learning from every post

[billvon 3,107]

> they are not afforded the time to do some turns, flares, decide
>they can land it . . .

That's why jumpers with little experience are required to open higher; so they have time to deal with (for them) unexpected circumstances.

If they don't have the experience to land any sort of HP main, they don't have the experience to tell a midsize Pilot from a smaller Velocity. Which is why a controllability check is a good idea.

>No, let's NOT take a "real world" example here. Let's take the
>example in the original post.

OK. If someone with 22 jumps who weighs 180 pounds opens uenxpectedly under a canopy that says "VELOCITY 96" in big letters under it, then I agree they should cut it away. That never happens in the real world, so it's more a thought exercise than a useful thing to talk about. It's like asking "let's say you knew you were going to have a lineover on your reserve; would you still cut away from that Velocity 96?" Valid for a thought exercise, but not a useful question about real world skydiving.

[ccowden 0]

Alright, I am tired of this and I don't want to argue about it anymore. My only point is that it would not have to read VELOCITY 96 under it for a 22 jump student to determine that this canopy was really small and scary.

I never said anything about automatically cuttng away a smaller canopy. Just to be clear. Certainly not a 240 to a 210. I said to cutaway if you look up and see a very small canopy that feels VERY fast and twitchy and you are unsure about landing it. Because that would definitely be the case if the situation in the original post were to happen.

Heck, a student would probably cutaway a perfectly good opening on my Velocity!

[Elisha 1]

I love how you guys like to disagree on academic hypothetical situations.

Anyways...I kind of asked my AFF-I/rigger the similar question a year or so ago.

I said, (Btw, I'm about 150 or so out the door) "Hey Mike! What would tell me if for some reason I jumped your rig (a Velocity 84)?" Answer: "Pull the reserve immediately. It's a 120. Then you MIGHT live." Good enough for me not to mess with these HP canopies.

[ccowden 0]

In reply to you directly, I apologize for all the arguing crap I was doing. That is mostly because I am bored and got caught up with it. And I am an idiot. I didn't mean to water down this thread with it.

I also in no way meant to say that you are "just a student" or couldn't land something smaller if you tried. I originally just wanted to point out that there was much more to consider than whether or not you could do a controllability check. I didn't mean to come across in a condesending way about your level, jump numbers or skill. If I did, I apologize.

To try and answer your question, A 190 "student" canopy and a 96 HP canopy are two completely different animals. It is unlikely that you would do a control check on a 96 and feel comfortable enough with it to land it. A 96 HP will feel very fast even in brakes, and ridiculously fast in full flight. It will feel small and twitchy to the point of turning quite a bit with just movement in the harness. Turns will feel like they are out of control, probably to the point of thinking there is something wrong with it. A full flare, like you are taught, would probably be downright scary.

Again, this is all from the perspective of coming from flying a 190 to a 96. Once you build your skill and experience, things that once scared you will become what you are comfortable with. Someday, that same 96 may "feel" just like you did under the 190.

Hope that helps.

[Scrumpot 1]

I too was only replying based upon the ORIGINAL POST, and IT'S SCENARIO at hand! ...Sheesh. Semantics.

What did you call it Chris, "getting cute"? ...I like that.

Bill, neither of us said anything about just any "oops, smaller canopy" - immediately cut-away! ...We were replying to a SPECIFIC "HP 96" scenario given. Although to you & I this may not seem like "real world", apparently, to this jumper ("Jackpunx") it is!

So I submit that answering in ANYTHING ELSE BUT HELL YES trying to land that vx96 SURE AS HECK WOULD BE DANGEROUS, is actually quite irresponsible! Please re-read his initial post.

Then, re-read his further response too, to my post after yours in which he says:

Quote

I think what Bill is saying is that some peoples/22jump student’s natural ability to adapt to a situation....

and then...

Quote

Which means there is a possibility that they will be able to do the CC and not shit their pants.. that being the case although dangerous, they may be able to land it.

(emphasis added)

PLEASE DISPELL THIS AND CLEAR THIS UP!! ...In this case too, I do not think we are talking about your one-in-a-million wunderkund who is also "lucky enough" to only weigh like 100lbs soaking wet too! Like that is real "real world" either!

The way I read it, this kid now thinks he just MAY be able to land that 96 canopy now, because he would be "cool" enough (meaning calm, not "hip") to potentially handle it. Even as a "thought excercise" this is IRRESPONSIBLE!

Unless you are disagreeing and you too are asserting that he possibly (and reasonably) can? I'll bow to your greater experience with students than mine, but personally I just don't see it. Do you really disagree and even remotely think that he CAN?

Granted, a VALID controllability check up high SHOULD tell him differently. But please also look at what he is posting here and be CLEAR! Like Chris, I have no desire or need to argue semantics (be "cute") with you. We can certainly do that BETWEEN US, but if there is any possibility (as it appears to me there just may be) that this could be in any way become misinterpreted by OTHERS, I think we should put the semantics aside, and just answer the question. He asked about landing a 96. ...Is this something, even remotely (not a non-applicable 100lb wunderkund scenario) you think he can, or anyone EVER (really) at a # 22 jump (student) level should even consider?

If so, I stand ready to stand corrected.
Let me (us) know.
THANKS!
-Grant

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[Jackpunx 0]

Quote

In reply to you directly, I apologize for all the arguing crap I was doing. That is mostly because I am bored and got caught up with it. And I am an idiot. I didn't mean to water down this thread with it.

I also in no way meant to say that you are "just a student" or couldn't land something smaller if you tried. I originally just wanted to point out that there was much more to consider than whether or not you could do a controllability check. I didn't mean to come across in a condesending way about your level, jump numbers or skill. If I did, I apologize.

To try and answer your question, A 190 "student" canopy and a 96 HP canopy are two completely different animals. It is unlikely that you would do a control check on a 96 and feel comfortable enough with it to land it. A 96 HP will feel very fast even in brakes, and ridiculously fast in full flight. It will feel small and twitchy to the point of turning quite a bit with just movement in the harness. Turns will feel like they are out of control, probably to the point of thinking there is something wrong with it. A full flare, like you are taught, would probably be downright scary.

Again, this is all from the perspective of coming from flying a 190 to a 96. Once you build your skill and experience, things that once scared you will become what you are comfortable with. Someday, that same 96 may "feel" just like you did under the 190.

Hope that helps.

I appreciate the time you took to write this response. No where during this thread did I ever feel you were personally attacking me or calling me "just a student" although.. I am....lol
I learned alot from this thread..
thanks for posting..
BTW... if weather cooperates.. I'll have my A this weekend

[Jackpunx 0]

LMAO....Easy killer!!.. I can see a vein popping out of your neck..lol.. J/k
by the time I posted that.. I was under the impression that after a CC I would not be comfortable.. and would think something is wrong with that canopy/// EP's
and on to the next one..

but now that you guys have given me all this great info on how to fly one..
Im putting my order in now..
what color should I get