The Uninsured... me?

[Eule 0]

Hello all!

(Not sure if this is better in General or Gear+Rigging; mods please move as appropriate.)

Last weekend I was talking with a rigger I met recently. The conversation came around to our day-time
jobs; as part of my job I have access to machine tools (a mill and a lathe) and this interested him. He
asked about making some rigging tools and rigging tool parts. I think mostly he wants to duplicate
existing tools, but in different (stronger) materials - he feels that the useful life of some of the tools he
uses is too short. We just talked briefly about what he had in mind; if I was actually going to make chips
we'd have a much longer discussion first. To be clear, these are tools that would be used by a rigger
when unpacking/inspecting/repairing/repacking rigs - not something that would actually fly as part of
the rig.

Initially I thought it would be kind of cool to turn out a useful prototype for him. Also, there's the idea
that if we do end up making a better tool, we could put it into production, get rich selling it, quit our day
jobs, and jump all the time. :) But then I started thinking of What Could Go Wrong. The big one is
probably that I make a tool for him, he uses it on a rig, and then Joe Jumper uses that rig and something
goes wrong with the rig. First I would have it on my conscience that maybe something I did wrong
contributed to Joe getting hurt or dead. Then there's the possibility that Joe or his family is going to
get the police or a landshark to go after the rigger, me, my employer, and anybody remotely connected
with the rig. This made me want to reconsider my (potential) involvement in making accessories for
sport parachuting.

The first thing simply means that I better know what the hell I'm doing before I make this stuff. I know
that to get the intricate details of the second thing would require me talking to a lawyer or perhaps an
insurance agent myself and I am not asking for detailed legal advice here. Basically what I'm after is a
calibration of my paranoia scale - am I worrying too much, or just being careful, or am I perhaps
insufficiently paranoid? Is it silly to worry about what a lawyer could do to me, compared to what a
large planet being thrown at me could do to me?

I haven't given the rigger a definite answer one way or the other, and I know of a few places that can
probably do what he wants that I can refer him to if I decide not to do it, so it's not a big deal to say
"no" at this point. I've also looked read some of the threads in Gear+Rigging about riggers and liabiilty
issues. I just wanted to get some input from people who may have been there and done that first.

Thanks!

Eule

PLF does not stand for Please Land on Face.

[Loonix 0]

I'd say you're too paranoid :)

The responsibility is with the rigger. And I don't see what the tools could do to the rig to do any damage that the rigger wouldn't notice. Then again, I'm no rigger. I'm not american either, I don't know what people will sue who for over there, but this sounds a bit too extreme :)

[popsjumper 2]

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....I'm not american either, I don't know what people will sue who for over there, but this sounds a bit too extreme :)

Not extreme...we don't call them landsharks for no reason.

So sad that a willingness to help gets crushed by the multitudes who would screw you for it in the end.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Scoop 0]

I wouldnt worry about it. I used to make loads of parts for racing cars. One off components for engines and other systems. Everyone appreciates its a risky business and shit happens (unfortunately)

Id say by making tools to do a job, you wouldnt be responsible. The person doing the work on the rigs might be the one to worry

Relax and enjoy your new sideline and cash flow

[gus 1]

Isn't it sad that a friend can't help a friend out without worrying about the fucking legal consequences .

Make the damn tools. Do a good job. Let your friend decide whether to use them.

Gus

OutpatientsOnline.com

[RhondaLea 4]

The products liability "industry" being what it is, you would be wise to talk with a lawyer before going ahead with this.

For all practical purposes, the personal injury sharks don't have much interest in individuals--corporate entities have deeper pockets--but in the context of a larger lawsuit, it's no skin off their nose to party you into the action.

For you, it means legal fees and a lot of hassles.

It's all well and good to bemoan the current climate, but it is the current climate, and saying that it's wrong (it is, IMO) isn't going to help you any if the shit hits the fan.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[BIGUN 1,470]

Who makes the tools now? Name one of the tools and who makes them (inner voice, of course) Do you even know the name of the rigging tool manufacturers and whether they have liability insurance?

Anyway, here's the point - all of these tools were derived over time. Usually by riggers trying to find a better-way. I know one rigger who has this magical way of sliding two tables together, laying a racer down on it and creating some type of foot loop to close the friggin thing in a zip. Someone gonna sue the table manufacturers since they were used as "rigging" tools?

The rigger is responsible for the reserve pack job and harness. The tools, methods, processes are all his/her responsibility. In the end, their seal is the endorsement of their work. The tools for accompishing this are their choice.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[tdog 0]

If you make a tool used then removed from the rig I think you are safe... (or I would do it)... It would be a far strech to prove that the tool malfunctioned, and that the tool was even used after the rig was packed.


If you make a component installed in a rig, well then, I would be a little more worried.

[mr2mk1g 10]

I think actual liability is highly unlikely. I think the specter of liability hanging over you (which in itself could be enough to bankrupt you) is also unlikely (although note I've dropped the "highly").

That said, I can envisage situations where you could perhaps make a crappy tool which creates a latent defect in an item and thus a portion of liability could find its way all the way back to you.

It would not be unreasonable therefore to knock up a little document stating that the rigger assumes all responsibility for choosing to use the tools you create and that they are to examine each one for suitability for the task for which they intend to use it. Note that you profess no knowledge of these tools but are merely copying originals provided by the rigger, that any deviation from the original is at the riggers specific behest and that you have no knowledge as to the manner in which the tools are to be used or the specific tasks in which they will be employed save for the fact that they will be used in some way within the parachute industry.

That should not be seen as an exhaustive or even authoritative list; it's just what came off the top of my head. You should either come up with your own document or if you want to be certain see a local lawyer about it because you can be certain your home made document won't be perfect... but it would be better than nothing.

As I said though even with nothing in place I think in practice you're probably worrying about nothing... but better safe than sorry.

Of course if you wanted to cheap out on the problem, just ensure your rigger friend suffers from amnesia about where he got his tools.

[Andre1 0]

I am a law student and I graduate from law school in 13 days. I can not give you legal advice however I strongly suggest you speak with an attorney in your state. If you can not afford an attorney check with your local bar association. They can direct you to free legal aid centers and attorneys offering free legal advice. You can also call law schools in your area that have legal aid clinics. They would have the best information (for free) on your exposure to liability in this area. This is my .02

[brycew 0]

If you're serious about pursuing this and concerned about liability, I would suggest checking out the details of creating an LLC, or Sub-S corporation. Having one of these will normally help shield your personal assets (car, savings, etc) in case someone does come after you. I am not a lawyer and nothing I state should be considered legal advice...

[davelepka 4]

If you make a tool, and it breaks, and the rigger loses a finger, you might have a problem.

What a rigger does with a rig under his or her care is their responsibility. This is what the riggers ticket is for. It's an end to the chain of responsibility, they are approved and rated as qualified to make 'executive' decisions regarding equipment and it's assembly or maintenence.

You have no control nor knowledge of what the rigger will do with these tools. If they use a packing paddle to beat someone to death, would you fear liability in the death? Surely not. It's the same thing with rigging tools. How or even if the rigger uses the tools is out of your control.

You will not get rich with this plan. What you may get is free rigging, which can be a pretty good deal. 90% of what a rigger charges is labor, so they can afford to give away a good bit of that in exchange for goods or services.

[EricTheRed 0]

Quote

I am a law student and I graduate from law school in 13 days. I can not give you legal advice however I strongly suggest you speak with an attorney in your state. If you can not afford an attorney check with your local bar association. They can direct you to free legal aid centers and attorneys offering free legal advice. You can also call law schools in your area that have legal aid clinics. They would have the best information (for free) on your exposure to liability in this area. This is my .02

Sounds like your disclaimer course was a success

illegible usually

[Remster 30]

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What a rigger does with a rig under his or her care is their responsibility. This is what the riggers ticket is for. It's an end to the chain of responsibility, they are approved and rated as qualified to make 'executive' decisions regarding equipment and it's assembly or maintenence.

Perhaps that is true, but that would not stop some other party in including you in a lawsuit.

Remster

[goose491 0]

I hear your concern and understand where it comes from but seriously, you should see some of the innovations some riggers come up with in terms of useful "tools".

Can you say MacGyver?


As already posted, the responsibility lies with the rigger and so does the choice of tools used so if you think you can make something new and improved, I say have at it!

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I think mostly he wants to duplicate existing tools

That might be an issue... seeing as someone surely has a patent on whatever tools are already created... but if it's not mass produced, I'm sure there's no prob.

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[Elisha 1]

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The products liability "industry" being what it is, you would be wise to talk with a lawyer before going ahead with this.

To address the thread title more, this would fall under Products Liability Insurance, or to be more general, a Commercial General Liability policy (under the respective coverage). Call up your local insurance agent that sells Commercial General Liability policies if you're interested.

And do the attorney thing too.

[councilman24 37]

Lowell Bachman and ParaGear were included in a lawsuit years ago over a packing data card. The used to sell paper cards that had their company name and address on them. All they did was sell the blank card. They didn't pack the rig, sell the rig, or have anything else to do with the rig, rigging, or jump. If I recall right the card was actually blank in the rig. They eventually got Paragear dismissed from the lawsuit but cost them about $10,000 in lawyer fees.

I relate this story because they do sell rigging tools made for them and with their name engraved on the tool! If Lowell thought he could get sued over this he wouldn't be doing it. I know of other rigging tools with company names on them. Again, if they thought they could be sued they wouldn't do it. Should Sears be concerned about their wrench being used to tighten a link or bolt on an engine cylinder?

This isn't legal advice but it is example of litigation wary companies not worrying about rigging tools.

Even with all the advice and caveats above, man I wouldn't worry about this one.

About making some of the tools stronger. It's probably good that some of the tools are made out of material softer than the rigs metal components. The tools wear and not the rigs gromments, etc. For instance, I don't think I'd want a steel kneeling plate instead of the aluminum one. Just something to keep in mind.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[RhondaLea 4]

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Should Sears be concerned about their wrench being used to tighten a link or bolt on an engine cylinder?

No. But they should be concerned if the wrench breaks during use, flies up and takes out an eye.

That would be one basis for a product liability lawsuit.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[councilman24 37]

Yeah, but you get a new wrench.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[RhondaLea 4]

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Yeah, but you get a new wrench.

Indeed you do.

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[BASE1036 0]

I personally wouldnt worry about it, just take a look at some of the improptu tools already in a rigging loft, I am sure that old broom stick handle was designed as a packing device....
There is shit used all of the time while packing a reserve.

Daniel
Protect Yourself and Your Loved Ones
Tasers - Pepper Spray - Stun Guns and more!
www.dallassecuritysupply.com

[tr027 0]

The only litigation risk I see would be a rigger somehow injuring himself with your tools (ya know, running with scissors or something like that). The certificated portion of the rig is the rigger's responsibility, not yours.

"The evil of the world is made possible by nothing but the sanction you give it. " -John Galt from Atlas Shrugged, 1957

[Eule 0]

First off, thanks for the many replies!

I'm going to respond to several posts in one reply, so we'll see how it goes.

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mr2mk1g> It would not be unreasonable therefore to knock up a little document stating that the
mr2mk1g> rigger assumes all responsibility for choosing to use the tools you create and that they
mr2mk1g> are to examine each one for suitability for the task for which they intend to use it.

I had thought of doing something like this. Sort of like the GPL, "no warranty, you're on your own".

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mr2mk1g> Of course if you wanted to cheap out on the problem, just ensure your rigger friend
mr2mk1g> suffers from amnesia about where he got his tools.

I thought of this too. :) We go over the design, and a tool mysteriously shows up in the loft a few
days later...

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Andre1> If you can not afford an attorney...

...one will be appointed for me? Just reading that phrase made me think of Miranda rights. Hey,
maybe I can get busted for something, get a public defender, and then ask him or her about this
question as well... that'd be free, too! :)

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davelepka> If you make a tool, and it breaks, and the rigger loses a finger, you might have a
davelepka> problem.

Agreed. I'm not as concerned about that, mostly because I figure it's less likely to happen. Basically
I figure that a rigger breaking his finger is more likely to conclude "shit happens" and let it go at that
than someone who got hurt on a jump.

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goose491> [duplicating existing tools] That might be an issue... seeing as someone surely has a
goose491> patent on whatever tools are already created... but if it's not mass produced, I'm sure
goose491> there's no prob.

Patents are interesting... they don't actually stop you doing something, they just give someone else the
right to sue you. Of course, I am trying to avoid getting sued at all. I'm pretty sure that if something
_is_ patented, I can make one for myself for "educational purposes" with no problem. Like you said,
selling lots of copies would be a problem. Depending on what the modification is, it might even work
out to just sell the improved part to people that already own the basic tool, or to buy the basic tool in
quantity, modify it, and sell that version.

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councilman24> It's probably good that some of the tools are made out of material softer than
councilman24> the rigs metal components. The tools wear and not the rigs gromments, etc.

Understood. I already thought of basic things, like needing to radius all the corners on hard materials
used in a tool so there's not any sharp edges that might cut the nylon, or using locknuts so a loose nut
doesn't end up in a packed canopy, and so on. For anything that's a variation on an existing tool, I
want to hold the existing tool in my hand, and watch how it is used on a rig, before I think about a
modification.

At this point, I'm at least going to talk to him in more detail about what he wants to do, and maybe
sketch some things out. Depending on how that goes, I may start making chips, or I might seek
some legal advice.

Thanks!

Eule

PLF does not stand for Please Land on Face.

[popsjumper 2]

Quote

I wouldnt worry about it....

True story:
Used to work for a telephone equipment manufacturer.
Due to customer idiocy, we had to put warning lables inside outdoor cabinets that read:

-Do Not Urinate Into the Cabinet-
-Do Not Place Combustible Materials on the Heating Pads-

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239