Landing Directions

[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

On very light wind days where the windsock may be uninflated, a landing direction should be established in the boarding area. Wind direction arrows can change during landing during light, variable winds.

"If there is no wind sock direction, we will all land to the North." And then face the North to illustrate.

Which may result in the entire load oanding downwind if the wind direction changes by the time the load is landing. The first person down can land into the wind and at least give the load the chance to land into the wind. If the wind direction changes after the first person lands, then nothing can be done and it is safer for everyone to land in the same direction.

Derek

[peek 21]

I am not all that thrilled with the idea of "following the direction of the first person landing".

1. The wind can both change AND _pick up_ from the time the first person lands to when the rest do. If the first person is jumping a small canopy and the rest are jumping larger canopies, the amount of time between the two can easily be long enough for this to happen.

2. The first person down can _make a mistake_ and land downwind.

3. The first person down can deliberately land downwind, knowing that they can easily do that if the winds ar low.

(Not even to mention that the first person down can land crosswind, thereby _really_ confusing everyone else.)

4. Some inexperienced jumpers, even if using larger parachutes, simply do not have the skill to land very well at all, and asking them to land downwind is asking them to risk injury to an even greater degree than they already are.

5. Inexperienced jumpers have been known to do sudden turns near the ground, and I have to believe that this is more likely when they realize they are going to be expected to land downwind. They can change their mind at the last minute and turn too low.


I hope we all recall some of the "I'm having a difficult time learning to land well." threads. Some of these inexperienced people have so little confidence in their ability to land that they are "choking" on landing and biffing in. I don't think we should add to that pressure by asking them to land downwind.

We all know that _physically_ we can easily land downwind in light winds, but skydiving is a very _mental_ sport. Some people are unable to land downwind mentally.

And above all, I hope we all remind ourselves and our fellow jumpers that it is OK to land in whatever direction they want if they land well away from everyone else, and encourage them to do so.

[happythoughts 0]

Quote

Quote

"If there is no wind sock direction, we will all land to the North." And then face the North to illustrate.

Which may result in the entire load oanding downwind if the wind direction changes by the time the load is landing.
Derek

"If the windsock is not inflated" <-- it is important to have a landing direction decided in the landing area because the "first person down" theory is predicated on the idea that one person is down first.

On my last Sunday jump day, we did 3 15-ways. At breakoff, we went in 15 directions. There was 4 or 5 people being that "first person", all landing at the same time. If they all land from their personal direction...

I was stating a plan for one case, no wind. In that case, there is no "downwind" direction.

If the wind does pick up during the plane ride, this is no longer a "no wind" situation. The windsock is inflated.

[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

I am not all that thrilled with the idea of "following the direction of the first person landing".

1. The wind can both change AND _pick up_ from the time the first person lands to when the rest do. If the first person is jumping a small canopy and the rest are jumping larger canopies, the amount of time between the two can easily be long enough for this to happen.

Yes, the wind can change direction from the time the first person lands and the last, but that is the point of following the first person down. Landing in the same direction, even if it is downwind, is safer than landing in different directions because of the collision hazard.

Quote

2. The first person down can _make a mistake_ and land downwind.

Yes, that can happen, but again, landing downwind is safer than a canopy collision.

Quote

3. The first person down can deliberately land downwind, knowing that they can easily do that if the winds ar low.

(Not even to mention that the first person down can land crosswind, thereby _really_ confusing everyone else.)

If the first person down lands downwind either intentionally or unintentionally, they should be grounded and given further instruction to prevent that error in the future.

Quote

4. Some inexperienced jumpers, even if using larger parachutes, simply do not have the skill to land very well at all, and asking them to land downwind is asking them to risk injury to an even greater degree than they already are.

If someone is that risky under canopy, they need to up-size and receive further canopy instruction because they are a danger to themselves and others.

Quote

5. Inexperienced jumpers have been known to do sudden turns near the ground, and I have to believe that this is more likely when they realize they are going to be expected to land downwind. They can change their mind at the last minute and turn too low.

If they are told to land in the same direction as the fist person down, it removes the decision of which way to land. They know which way to land and it removes the chance of a panic turn from realizing too low that they are landing the ‘wrong’ direction.

Quote

I hope we all recall some of the "I'm having a difficult time learning to land well." threads. Some of these inexperienced people have so little confidence in their ability to land that they are "choking" on landing and biffing in. I don't think we should add to that pressure by asking them to land downwind.

We all know that _physically_ we can easily land downwind in light winds, but skydiving is a very _mental_ sport. Some people are unable to land downwind mentally.

Then they should do hop and pops and receive canopy instruction until they can safely fly with other canopies in the traffic pattern. Until they can follow the first person down, they are a danger to themselves and anyone else in the air with them.

Quote

And above all, I hope we all remind ourselves and our fellow jumpers that it is OK to land in whatever direction they want if they land well away from everyone else, and encourage them to do so.

At DZ’s with that option, then landing which ever direction he jumper chooses away from the main landing area is a nice out. Not every DZ has an alternate landing area.

Derek

[riddler 0]

Quote

There was 4 or 5 people being that "first person", all landing at the same time.

Obviously, you don't have enough people at your dropzone flying 60 square-foot canopies

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

"If the windsock is not inflated" <-- it is important to have a landing direction decided in the landing area because the "first person down" theory is predicated on the idea that one person is down first.

On my last Sunday jump day, we did 3 15-ways. At breakoff, we went in 15 directions. There was 4 or 5 people being that "first person", all landing at the same time. If they all land from their personal direction...

I was stating a plan for one case, no wind. In that case, there is no "downwind" direction.

If the wind does pick up during the plane ride, this is no longer a "no wind" situation. The windsock is inflated.

Right, I covered that on in;

1) You can generally figure out in the boarding area who is going to be the first person to land. At that time you can discuss which way they are planning on landing, the winds, etc. This can prevent the first person down from landing downwind.

There must be the condition that if the winds do pick up, the first person down will land into the wind, regardless of what was discussed on the ground.

Derek

[happythoughts 0]

Quote

Quote

There was 4 or 5 people being that "first person", all landing at the same time.

Obviously, you don't have enough people at your dropzone flying 60 square-foot canopies

[DrewEckhardt 0]

Quote

I am not all that thrilled with the idea of "following the direction of the first person landing".

Those of us in favor of following the first person down do not dispute that they may land cross-wind or downwind, that the winds may subsequently change leading to landings other than upwind, or that people with sub-par canopy control skills may be injured on landing.

Our position is that all of this is a safer use of the main landing area and therefore preferable to the various landing directions which result in variable winds.

Stumbling on a cross-wind landing or an embarassing face plant are preferable to coliding with another canopy going > 50 MPH on the ground or in the air.

While I'd like to think such a collision isn't possible, I've been run-over by unguided missiles who were either suffering object fixation or could not ground carve. Intersecting flight paths make such collisions likely. Tunnel vision is also a real problem - people don't see things in front of them until within narrow field of vision.

Better to see a few scrapes than a few low-altitude wraps or highway speed collisions.

[billvon 3,080]

>1. The wind can both change AND _pick up_ from the time the first
> person lands to when the rest do.

Agreed. However, it's still safer for everyone to land going the same direction, even if it means that some people land downwind.

>3. The first person down can deliberately land downwind, knowing
>that they can easily do that if the winds ar low.

Then they should be talked to. A spotter can pick a bad spot and force everyone to land out; that just means that the spotter made a mistake, not that no one should spot.

>4. Some inexperienced jumpers, even if using larger parachutes,
> simply do not have the skill to land very well at all, and asking them
> to land downwind is asking them to risk injury to an even greater
> degree than they already are.

I agree. However, asking them to land going the opposite direction as the other canopies is asking for even more trouble. A newer jumper may not have the skill to thread their Triathalon 190 between several swoopers approaching from the other direction. That means everyone has to land going the same direction, which means that everyone has to land the same direction as the first canopy down.

>5. Inexperienced jumpers have been known to do sudden turns near
> the ground, and I have to believe that this is more likely when they
> realize they are going to be expected to land downwind. They can
> change their mind at the last minute and turn too low.

I believe the best way to prevent this is to teach them that they can safely land downwind. I think the idea that "you absolutely must land into the wind!" has killed a lot of jumpers.

>We all know that _physically_ we can easily land downwind in light
> winds, but skydiving is a very _mental_ sport. Some people are
> unable to land downwind mentally.

Then they have to fix that. It's not OK to land opposite the landing direction of everyone else because they have mental problems with that. We don't let jumpers at rantoul pull at 5000 feet because pulling lower makes them nervous. Pulling too high is a safety issue, just as landing counter to traffic is.

>And above all, I hope we all remind ourselves and our fellow jumpers
> that it is OK to land in whatever direction they want if they land well
> away from everyone else, and encourage them to do so.

Definitely. If there's plenty of room, or it's a cessna DZ and there are only three people on the load, much of this does not apply - as long as people are willing to land far away from the main area so their (possibly different) traffic patterns do not conflict. In addition, at many DZ's, newer jumpers have student canopies with unique colors, and everyone knows to give them a wide berth (and land in odd directions.)

But once you get to a higher traffic DZ, or one where everyone lands in a small area, it's absolutely imperative that everyone lands going the same direction. Which is another way of saying that everyone has to land in the same direction as the first person down.

[peek 21]

Derek, Drew, and Bill,

I probably should have given everyone a better definition of "inexperienced jumper" in my comments about downwind landings.

I agree that by the time someone has enough jumps and has a high enough wingloading that they are landing at the same time as many other jumpers, that they need to land the same direction even if it is downwind during light winds.

What I was thinking as I wrote earlier was the very inexperienced jumper or the student that hears the very experienced jumper or instructor say "Everyone must land the same direction as the first person."

This person might be landing 1 to 2 minutes after everyone else has already landed, and if the wind has picked up, I would hate to see them biff in because they took such a statement too literally.

This could be the case if it is not explained to them well enough. In other words, I hope we are teaching good judgement as well as rules or statements made by experienced jumpers.

Possibly our conversations will increase awareness of this.


For those of you who have mentioned small landing areas that everyone must land in - How small are you refering too?

[billvon 3,080]

>For those of you who have mentioned small landing areas that
>everyone must land in - How small are you refering too?

Depends where you are. At the old Skydive Long Island, it was the far side of the runway, a strip maybe 500 feet by 50 feet wide. At Rantoul it's everyone who lands by manifest. At Perris it's the grass strip. At Mile-Hi it's the area near the wind sock.

[Hooknswoop 19]

25 jumps = "A" license. They should follow the first person down if they have a license. If they are still a student, they should be filling out a flight plan and have guidance via radio from their Instructor to back them up on their landing pattern. The concept of following the first person down should be explained to them prior to receiving their "A" license to prepare them for flying in traffic with other jumpers.

Blue Sky Adventures has (had?) a very small landing area with the runway nearby, taxiway, ditches, trees, roads, powerlines, and buildings.

Derek

[ps5601 0]

Several people have repeatedly insisted on the "first man down" method, due to the serious dangers presented by people landing in different directions.

There is a simple solution to this, one I have seen at several DZs, generally those where you can expect to see lots (30 - 80) canopies in the air at once. You have a big f*ckoff arrow on the DZ pointing in the direction in which everyone is to land. The arrow is controlled by ground staff and NOT the wind.

In light and variable winds the landing direction is obvious to all. Everyone is able to set and fly their pattern, not having to watch who is down when. If the winds change then the ground staff (normally DZ control) can move the arrow as required.

Can the advocates of first man down please post a valid reason as to why they would prefer to use first man down method over the big, easy to read and understand, manually controlled arrow?

Blue skies

Paul

[Nightingale 0]

Yesterday at Perris, someone set the pattern downwind. Most people followed the pattern...quite a few butt slid or tumbled their landings. There were two or three that didn't follow the pattern, yet landed on the grass anyway. Manifest got on the PA and read them the riot act about it. There's no excuse at Perris. There's so much open space that if you don't want to take a downwind, don't land on the grass and stay out of everyone else's pattern.

[peek 21]

Paul: Can the advocates of first man down please post a valid reason as to why they would prefer to use first man down method over the big, easy to read and understand, manually controlled arrow?

Paul, I am not a FMD advocate, but I am commenting anyway.

I think using a large wind indicator that takes at least a few MPH of wind to move it or is controlled by people is one of the better ways of determining landing direction.

It seems to have worked well every place I have seen it used and where everyone knew about it and followed this idea.

Of course not every DZ has one.

[peek 21]

All,

The question I posed earlier: "For those of you who have mentioned small landing areas that everyone must land in - How small are you refering too?"

refered to a landing area in which all skydivers were "required" to land. This could be for any number of reasons, e.g., everything but the runway and landing area is forest or swamp and the DZ manager kicks the DZ out if anyone lands near the runway, etc.

I was wondering how many drop zones were restricted to this degree. (It would be unfortunate if they were.)

Some of my earlier comments assumed that at least some type of "alternate" landing area was available in which to divert and land in the direction of one's choice if otherwise safe to do so.

If there was a landing area this restricted it would seem that very strict landing direction procedures be in place, at least for the majority of the people landing at the same time.

It would also seem that the DZ would have in place some procedures for students and novice jumpers, to make sure they are unlikely to be landing when large numbers of other jumpers are, e.g., assigned pull altitudes.

[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

Can the advocates of first man down please post a valid reason as to why they would prefer to use first man down method over the big, easy to read and understand, manually controlled arrow?

The 'FMD' method is for the first person down to follow the wind indicators, be it a tetrahedron, windsock, or person-controlled wind/landing direction indicator. The ‘FMD’ method is inclusive of following the wind indicators, but doesn’t stop there. The key is that everyone land in the same direction, simply because a canopy collision contains a much higher risk than a downwind landing. I am not advocating downwind landings, I am advocating that everyone land in the same direction into the wind. But if the wind direction changes between the first person and last person down, or the first person down doesn’t land into the wind, it is better to land in the same direction than land into the wind.

Derek

[billvon 3,080]

>Can the advocates of first man down please post a valid reason as
>to why they would prefer to use first man down method over the big,
>easy to read and understand, manually controlled arrow?

Both methods work. The arrow is a way to force everyone to land in the same direction as the first person down, and thus ensure that everyone lands in the same direction. Both have pluses and minuses. In the case of 'first man down', the first guy down can screw up and land downwind. In the case of the arrow, a staff member can screw up and not move the arrow after a sudden wind change.

[billvon 3,080]

>This person might be landing 1 to 2 minutes after everyone else has
> already landed, and if the wind has picked up, I would hate to see
> them biff in because they took such a statement too literally.

This weekend I did a four-way with three other low-experience jumpers. The first person down landed crosswind (at Perris there are only two possible landing directions in the grass area.) By the time I landed, it was a bit of a downwinder.

Katie, at about 60 jumps, set up to land the same way everyone else landed. She said she saw the windsocks at about 100 feet blowing the wrong way, and she elected to just land in that direction rather than do a low turn. She got her feet and knees together, flared, and landed in the dirt student area with a cloud of dust. No injuries; she did a good slider.

She later wondered if she had done the wrong thing by landing opposite the wind direction, but several people talked to her and told her that it's far better to land downwind than to try to turn at 100 feet at her level. In addition, there was traffic in her area (other low-experienced jumpers) who were all landing the same direction. I think she made the right call, and I was glad to see she's not afraid of downwind landings.

[ManBird 0]

Since when did downwind landings become this dangerous and impossible feat? When the ground shows up, pull the thingies. Slide it out if your feet won't keep up with your canopy. Look at the incident reports -- forcing an "into the wind" landing results in canopy collisions and low turns. The "into the wind" philosophy also does not account for swooping, which is often done downwind intentionally in a designated area.

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

Click

[Shark 0]

Quote

The "into the wind" philosophy also does not account for swooping, which is often done downwind intentionally in a designated area.

Which is fine, but intentionally doing a downwinder too many times in the main landing area at most DZs will result in, a) a temporary ban by the S&TA, or b) getting one's ass beat by the locals.

Several DZs have specific areas to do high-performance landings, while restricting final turns less than 90 degrees in the main landing area, primarily into the wind.

Quote

Look at the incident reports -- forcing an "into the wind" landing results in canopy collisions and low turns.

Proper training lessens the chance of this.

[MakeItHappen 15]

Quote

Look at the incident reports -- forcing an "into the wind" landing results in canopy collisions and low turns.

Quote

The ‘FMD’ method is inclusive of following the wind indicators, but doesn’t stop there. The key is that everyone land in the same direction, simply because a canopy collision contains a much higher risk than a downwind landing.

First Person Down [FPD] and land into the wind are a sub-rules to land safely.

It would be nice if on each and every jump everyone landed in the same direction.

I was on a jump recently were the DZ has a 'to the west ONLY' or 'to the east ONLY' landing direction. Our spot, for a 16-way, was long to the west and landing was to the west. The wind was ~15 from the SW. So I was doing this right hand flat turn into the wind ~100->50 ft. I wanted to turn to the west, but there was another jumper there in the airspace that I needed to get a proper landing direction. The other jumper was also doing a right hand low flat turn. That jumper turned into the wind (SW) - not all the way to the west. That jumper was in the place that I wanted to turn into. Our descent rates were about the same. I opted NOT to turn all the way to the west. I did not want to do that canopy collision thing right off the deck (or at any altitude for that matter) and I did not want to land in a turn. I was at the same altitude as the other jumper and was able to get a heading more towards the west than into the wind, but I definitely stopped turning so that I could land without being in a turn. I also did a tiny correction to get out of the canopy burble and get the wind directly - not downwind of the other jumper. I flared and landed safely, albeit not to the west.[*]

After I landed I had several people give me the talk about landing to the west or to the east only.

My story and I'm sticking to it, is that I'd rather break some rule than break my bones. The people that gave me the lecture did not see the preceding airspace conflict. All they saw was that I did not land to the west. Some of these people knew I knew the rule and really asked why I landed more into the wind. Once they understood the sequence of events, they didn't have a problem with what I did.

Turns out that the other jumper did not know about the 'to the west' rule and that is why he did not turn all the way into the western heading.

On this recent jump, I broke the landing direction rule to avoid a canopy collision. Just over a year ago, I broke another landing rule of 'do not land closer than 50 ft from the runway' to avoid another collision. These situations mean that in some scenarios, landing 'rules' might precipitate a collision - if followed absolutely and unquestionably.

Bottom line is: Land Safely.

[*] I was staying on the outside of the jumper's turn initially because I thought he was going to turn to the west. This would have made my landing out of his downwind burble and to the west. Once I realized he was turning into the wind, and only that far, I did more of a westerly turn to get just ahead (aka west of or inside of his turn) of the downwind burble from his canopy at landing. [Ask me to draw you a picture if this is not clear.]
.

.
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[billvon 3,080]

>My story and I'm sticking to it, is that I'd rather break some
>rule than break my bones.

Well, no problem there, but there's a reason that many DZ's have landing rules now - because people have been injured and killed by collisions on landing, collisions caused by people _not_ landing in the same direction. I think everyone understands that there are exceptions. But there are some things that may get a jumper grounded not because they are doing something that may put themselves at a higher risk, but because their actions put other jumpers at risk.