Dropzone Morals

[tbrown 26]

Some smaller dropzones will in fact shut down, at least for the day, though I've never seen one close for an entire weekend.

Other places, bigger operations with two or more twin engine turbos and a lot of jumpers can't really afford to. An airplane sitting on the ground is a money hole. Besides, these places usually have a bunkhouse full of jumpers who have travelled long distances from colder snowbound states, or even from countries all over the world to jump there for things like the climate and the dropzone's reputation as a great place to jump. Their vacation is every bit as precious as yours and they can't be expected to cool their heels because some local yokel bit the dust (soory about that, I DO care when we lose anyone, I'm just trying to empathize with a visitor's point of view).

Three deaths in two years ? It happens at some of the bigger places. Used to happen a whole lot more - believe me. Time was when you'd go to any major boogie and you knew ahead of time that somebody would bounce - and somebody would. That's just the way it used to be, so it is better now, mostly.

Finally, about "dying doing what I love". Splatting like a bug on a windshield is not something that I love. I have assured my family that IF I ever go in, it will most certainly be an accident and that I fought with it all the way down.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[MooChooser 0]

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i've two friends who were killed attempting to sail around the world.. i miss them often, but i KNOW (from conversations about exactly this) they accepted the risks, accepted their fate, and died MUCH happier than they would have if they had ended their lives trapped in some sterile hospital room....

Even if it was a hospital room 60, 40 or even 10 years from now?

I dont mean to be insensitive but in my opinion the "died doing something they loved" tag is more for the benefit of those left behind.

[popsjumper 2]

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This is normal. Skydiving isn't a fascination with death so much as a celebration of life. You don't put life on hold because of death. You go out, put in some jumps, think about how great the guy or girl was and then raise some beers to them at the end of the day.

THAT is what I'm taking from this thread...fits my life philosophy to a T.

Now, I'm done here...

Blue Skies and Be Safe

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Zenister 0]

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i've two friends who were killed attempting to sail around the world.. i miss them often, but i KNOW (from conversations about exactly this) they accepted the risks, accepted their fate, and died MUCH happier than they would have if they had ended their lives trapped in some sterile hospital room....

Even if it was a hospital room 60, 40 or even 10 years from now?

I dont mean to be insensitive but in my opinion the "died doing something they loved" tag is more for the benefit of those left behind.

absolutely..

"how long" is MUCH less important than "how well"...

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[Superman32 0]

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I dont mean to be insensitive but in my opinion the "died doing something they loved" tag is more for the benefit of those left behind.

Of course is a benefit for those left behind.
I've witnessed a lot of people dying and dead. In my opinion, it's irrelevant how you actually die. Was it painful, was it slow, did you die quietly in your sleep? How does it matter to you? You are dead, just a piece of meat with no feeling, no pain, and no memories.
What does matter are the people that loved you and have to deal with your demise. Those are the people that have to wake up every morning and miss you. They're the ones still alive and in pain.
So if you tell me that "died doing something they loved" is just a tag to help comfort those left behind, I ask you, what is the problem with that?

Inveniam Viam aut Faciam
I'm back biatches!

[tigra 0]

OK, here's the thing- "died doing something he loved" or "died living his life to the fullest" is sometimes valid but more often than not, its an empty cliche used when someone died senselessly and left the world much too soon. (And there have been so many stupid senseless fatalities in this sport- good people who made bad choices!) I *think* that's what Chris and Wally are trying to say. And yes, your perspective does change when you've been around the sport for a while.

As to the original question about "morals"- I don't think a person is any more or less moral if they continue jumping immediately after a serious incident. We all cope differently.

[LawnDart21 0]

I'm not a mod, that said,

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"died doing something they loved"

has been discussed at nauseum in past threads.

Please try to keep this thread on track, its essentially about the morality of jump operations continuing if a fatality occurs, not about whether or not its tragic to die doing what you love to do.

For the record, I think it's appropriate for a DZ to continue operations if continuing to do so does not impact the safety of operation.

Skydiving is a business, and every slot/ every load flown can make the difference in whether or not your DZ is able to stay in business.

From a personal morality stand point, I can recall a few years ago when a close friend died on landing after an 8 way we were on together. It happened late morning. After we left the hospital late afternoon, the rest of the jumpers of the load all returned to the DZ and made the same jump with an open slot for him. The consensus was we needed to get back in the air that day, I don't think it was disrepectful to do so, and I am thankful that our DZ chose to continue operations to allow us to do so.

--
My other ride is a RESERVE.

[Beverly 1]

Hey Chris,

Sorry for the late reply. No I do not want to die skydiving, but I and my family understand the risks involved in this sport.
If I were involved in an accident in this sport, or having sex, or 4x4ing, or kickboxing, or mountain climbing etc, I would have died doing something I enjoyed doing and not like my aunt that died in a car accident because some asshole skipped a stop street.

I love skydiving and my skydiving family and close friends. I would be very very shocked to have one of them fatally hurt. I have only been on DZ's where the people hurt and killed I have not known personally. It affects you differently.

Hope I did not freak you out too badly.

Here's to lots of safe and fun jumps!!

I think true friendship is under-rated

Twitter: @Dreamskygirlsa

[MooChooser 0]

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"how long" is MUCH less important than "how well"...

I agree, but thats missing my point a little. Why would someones quality of life be any lower just because they don't die in a skydiving accident?

The alternative isnt necessarily bad. Maybe they just go on living life as per normal.

[LawnDart21 0]

Wrong person, I think you were replying to Zenister.

--
My other ride is a RESERVE.

[CSpenceFLY 1]

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Hey Chris,

Sorry for the late reply. No I do not want to die skydiving, but I and my family understand the risks involved in this sport.
If I were involved in an accident in this sport, or having sex, or 4x4ing, or kickboxing, or mountain climbing etc, I would have died doing something I enjoyed doing and not like my aunt that died in a car accident because some asshole skipped a stop street.

I love skydiving and my skydiving family and close friends. I would be very very shocked to have one of them fatally hurt. I have only been on DZ's where the people hurt and killed I have not known personally. It affects you differently.

Hope I did not freak you out too badly.

Here's to lots of safe and fun jumps!!

I haven't seen very,umm, any fatal sex accidents.You must do it differently over there.


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[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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Sorry, I guess I've seen too many people die to think that there is some glory by dieing skydiving. There's none.

I share your thoughts Chris. However, I can understand why someone would say this. Death is never a happy topic and always hard to deal with. That phrase is a way of dealing with loss, nothing else. Would you rather your family say: Damn, he had such potential but just sat around the house and died of boredom? Instead, they can take comfort that at least in this tragedy they knew you were out there doing what made you happy...nothing more...nothing less. It is a way to celebrate a person's life instead of concentrating on their passing.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

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[skybytch 273]

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He clearly (IMO) meant that IF he has the misfortune of going in, then at least his family would have the comfort of knowing he died doing something he loved.

If I die skydiving it's likely that I fucked up. Hopefully I'll go in while doing everything I can to fix my fuck up, but attempting to fix a fuck up isn't something I love to do.

My family knows I love skydiving, but they also know that I'd much rather die of old age than from impact.

Back to the topic, imho it's not disrespectful at all for the dz to continue operations after a fatality. It's up to each individual jumper whether they choose to continue jumping that day or not. There's no real need for those who didn't know the deceased to have their day cut short, and some of those who did know the deceased may want to grieve for them by jumping instead of by drinking.

[CSpenceFLY 1]

Well said.


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[Eiley 0]

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People die.
Not to put words in her mouth, but I don't think she meant in anyway that she wanted to die. I think that there are many more horrific ways to go. It's my personal belief that if it's your time to go, you will go. Better to go in quick and doing something you love, than to linger in pain and suffering with a debilitating disease or being a victim of some senseless crime or ...

Wow, you guys really know what's what. Between the three of you there is exactly 4 years of experience according to your profiles. You really must have seen alot. It's easy to buy into the rationalizations when you're new.

Hi Chris,

My partner was killed in a canopy collision (and died instantly) at age 27.

He also had Huntington's Disease and we had spent many a long night figuring out what to do in the next 8 years when he started the long, drawn-out, humiliating process of first losing his mind, then the use of his body, then the drastically premature death that was absolutely 100% guaranteed for him.

Will you accept my assertion that it was better he went the way he did?


(Oh, and I had no problem whatsoever with operations at the DZ carrying on as normal).

nothing to see here

[freakflyer9999 1]

My best friend, Steve, died in a skydiving accident several years ago. It was at a small Cessna only DZ, so we did stop operations for the rest of the afternoon, since the staff was involved in assisting with the investigation.

I was at the DZ first thing the next morning, but unfortunatly we were winded out that day. I didn't get to jump again until the next weekend, but I did jump again as soon as I could.

As someone else in the thread mentioned, I had ridden to the DZ with Steve that day. The keys to his truck were right where we had agreed they would be in case anything ever happened. I drove his truck back to his house, removed all of his porn so his mother wouldn't have to and cleaned up the place for him.

His family and I took solace in the fact that he died doing the only thing that we had ever seen give him life. We all die sometime, might as well happen pursuing life on the edge rather than sitting on the couch in front of the TV smoking a cigarette.

BSBD.

[Grips 0]

Yeah, I'm not down with the whole sitting on the couch, smoking a cigarette, and watching life pass me buy 'thing'.

Thanks again everybody who responded. I feel better now, knowing what I do.

I still don't know if I felt right, jumping the next day after somebody 'bounced', but again, that could be because I am very new to this sport. Regardless, I will jump again in a week or two, and hopefully knock over a few of those AFF jumps!

Cheers.

[UntamedDOG 0]

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I opted to postpone my jump, and retraining, not out of fear but out of respect, as I just didn't feel right jumping the day after somebody's life was lost...where I was going to be jumping.

Fact #1 The sky isn’t getting any safer by refusing to jump.

Fact #2 The friend who bounced is not becoming any less deceased by refusing to jump.

One very important lesson that you need to learn is that many skydivers are extremely jaded with regard to death in our sport.

My home DZ has about 2-3 fatalities per year. When I had low jump numbers, I would get very nervous after hearing about a fatality. I would ask a lot of questions and try to find out the details and if anyone knew the victim.

After Adria Allen died, I realized that I was going to have to grow a thicker skin if I had any hope of continuing in this sport. You can’t have self doubt if you want to skydive. You can’t let another persons misfortune/negligence translate to your own abasement.

Eventually, you will reach a point where you will stop asking questions. You will accept the risk without trying to trivialize the facts.

Many skydivers have reached this point of clarity already. This is why the jumpers at your dropzone didn’t throw their rigs in the trunk and drive off. The dropzone stayed open because people were willing to jump.


UntamedDOG

[riggerrob 643]

Different people cope with stress in different ways.
After a friend dies, some people are so distraught, rattled, depressed, etc. that they should not be allowed near fast-moving machines (i.e. jump planes).
Some of those people turn to recreational drugs to dull their emotions. I tried drinking heavily for years, but - in the long run - concluded that it was not working as I always woke up with a throbbing head and the same old list of problems. Ergo, I have not touched a drop of alcohol in almost 9 years.

Operators (i.e. skydivers- tend to prefer some form of physical outlet (running, swimming, lifting weights, skydiving, etc.) for their emotions.

We do know that fear, anxiety, and other strong emotions cause the body to secrete a variety of hormones: adrenaline, etc. If those hormones just float around in the bloodstream, they eventually become toxic.
The only method - that works for me - to purge the body of unhealthy hormones is to go for a long swim or a skydive.
Skydiving works well because it forces me to empty my mind of everything not directly related to surviving this jump. Emptying the mind is a common Bhuddist meditation practice.

[phoenixlpr 0]

Have you ever stopped driving for days beacuse someone has died in car accident in the country? In your town? In your neighborhood? In your family?

You should have stopped dribing at least for the weekend!

[diverdriver 7]

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Hey Chris,


Hope I did not freak you out too badly.

Here's to lots of safe and fun jumps!!

And to you too Beverly.


Stay safe to all!

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125