Dropzone Morals

[popsjumper 2]

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...Sorry to be a fly in your ointment folks. I guess discenting opinions aren't allowed. A post was made. I responded. The three of you jumped me. I responded in kind. Because I haven't capitulated to your way of thinking then I must be pushed to the side (with your "piss off" comment).

*Sigh* You've so far missed every point entirely...has nothing to do with dissenting opinion, capitulating or being "pushed aside." Sorry that you are reading all that into the responses to your posts.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[MarkM 0]

This is normal. Skydiving isn't a fascination with death so much as a celebration of life. You don't put life on hold because of death. You go out, put in some jumps, think about how great the guy or girl was and then raise some beers to them at the end of the day.

[CSpenceFLY 1]

Well this one was hyjacked to hell.

All things being considered I would rather still be here doing what I love than have all of you fuckers talking about my dead ass.


.

[CSpenceFLY 1]

Oh and btw if I did die skydiving I would want all of you to sit around at least for a day or two and talk about what a great guy I was.


.

[popsjumper 2]

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...I know for a fact that if I die skydiving and I really hope I don't, then I would like others to keep jumping and doing the things they love, I don't need them to stop doing what they love to show respect.

I agree 100%.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[dharma1976 0]

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That is the actual death part, I can hardly see anyone turning round and saying;

"He died doing something that he loved.... dying!"

Moving swiftly back on topic, I know for a fact that if I die skydiving and I really hope I don't, then I would like others to keep jumping and doing the things they love, I don't need them to stop doing what they love to show respect.

And now for the More Zen approach, you are all dying everyday you are living...

As far as flying loads, I jump at a DZ that does thats for sure...has caught some slack for that, unless there is some extraordinary reason like hellfire winds or a thunderstorm, why shouldnt they...Shit I would be the first to run to the grocery and get some flowers and do a flower drop on a load that day...theres somethign kinda touchign about jumping out of a plane with flowers, like how they blow apart in your face and stuff...

Cheers
Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[Taylor610 0]

BTW folks, I've made plenty of same day jumps when close friends went in. I've flown loads when others have died in a jump plane crash. Been there. Done that. The original post was about continuing ops during an incident. I think if there is sufficient staffing and people can focus on their jobs then there's nothing wrong with it. The bigger the DZ the easier it is to continue ops. I would take offense to it unless the staff couldn't perform to a high level during a stressful time.
***

Chris, I greatly appreciate your insight and response to the thread. For those of you "intelligent" people who are not so inspired, that you might see what happens to to the skydiving community when accidents occur, then I respectfully ask that you reread what diverdriver wrote, take some note of understanding that just maybe, "experience" does shed some light on how we take things and how we respond back to them. In this case, I believe Chris is right. After owning a DZ for 8 years and 25+ years in the sport, I can tell you from experience, just because someone loved the sport, was no consolation to their family at that moment.

As to the thread topic, that should be left to the individual. Some may want to show respect by jumping, some may want to sit that one out and ponder the time they had with the individual. I am not sure if it should be classified as a measurement of a persons moral standards whether they do or not.

[winsor 236]

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Hi.

I am new here, awesome site, lots of good info, and great forums. I am lucky to have found this site.

A quick blurb about me, and then my question. I am a student, I have 4 jumps however, I haven't jumped since January. I am starting over from AFF Stage 1. I am an American Expat currently in Australia. I will be doing my training here.

I just had a quick question. I was supposed to jump just this passed Sunday, to start my training again. I was very eager, and looking forward to this. However, tragically, Saturday, the day before. Somebody jumped, had a malfunction, and passed on as their reserved failed to open in time.

I opted to postpone my jump, and retraining, not out of fear but out of respect, as I just didn't feel right jumping the day after somebody's life was lost...where I was going to be jumping.

I found out a day later, that Sunday, the day after, it was 'Operations as Normal'.

What I am asking is if something terribly tragic like this happened at your DZ, would the DZ be down for a day or two, or would business just go on as usual.

If it was my operation, I would have shut operations down for at least the weekend.

Another quick note, this DZ has had 3 deaths in the last 2 years...?

Thats pretty bad...isn't it?

Thanks for any feed back, and see you on the boards!

A) Shutting down because someone neglects to open their parachute in a timely manner is unwarranted. If there is a life-flight or whatever the helicopter takes precedent, and an incident involving substantial damage to the jump aircraft or crippling injury to the jump pilot puts a damper on things, but otherwise life goes on.

I have been on a load where on climbout we tried to locate the body of someone who had impacted on the last load. It turns out he arrived (with nothing out) in the middle of a family picnic, so our efforts were wasted.

If you fall off a ladder, you should climb back up it before going to the hospital.

B) 3 deaths in 2 years? That sucks, but I consider it unlikely that the DZ was responsible per se. Ted Mayfield aside, DZOs tend to try to keep their customers alive.

In some cases, skydivers are hell-bent upon proving that something or another is NOT fatal - with predictable results (Hey! Watch this!).

If you want a hobby that doesn't reward bad decision making with a mild case of rigor mortis, skydiving is a bad choice. Stick around long enough and you will be on hand when someone bounces.

On the up side, so long as it is not you, you are ahead of the curve.

On the down side, it usually involves losing friends.


BSBD,

Winsor

[chaoskitty 0]

We'd probably have to sit around for a day or two because most of us probably came to the boogie with you. Leave us stranded, ya bastard!

[Superman32 0]

You jump out of a "perfectly good airplane"? There are some inherent dangers that go along with that, you may even die as a result.
YOU choose to jump. YOU know the risk.
Those that have gone in knew the risk just as well as you do. They chose to jump, I assume, because they loved it NOT because they wanted to die. I think speaks sadly in their memory when people compare it to committing suicide or dying of cancer, etc.
If you are grieving over someone, I have empathy for you, but as AggieDave said, if somebody quit because I went in, I would be pissed.

Like the cheesy T-shirt says, "I do it not to escape from life, but to keep life from escaping". That is what I would want remembered

Inveniam Viam aut Faciam
I'm back biatches!

[popsjumper 2]

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...After owning a DZ for 8 years and 25+ years in the sport, I can tell you from experience, just because someone loved the sport, was no consolation to their family at that moment.

Did you continue jumps after an accident at your DZ?
Why/Why not?


Edited to past tense as per knock on the head from Spence.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

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We'd probably have to sit around for a day or two because most of us probably came to the boogie with you. Leave us stranded, ya bastard!

The keys are in the console....

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[CSpenceFLY 1]

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...After owning a DZ for 8 years and 25+ years in the sport, I can tell you from experience, just because someone loved the sport, was no consolation to their family at that moment.

Do you continue jumps after an accident at your DZ?
Why/Why not?

He is one of the "smart" DZOs.He sold his.


.

[tigra 0]

Very well said! All of it.......

[Taylor610 0]

Do you continue jumps after an accident at your DZ?
Why/Why not?
***
We would continue jumping after and accident, if it was not a hinderance to any rescue/emergency response. If it involved transport of an injured jumper, I normally held off until after the ambulance left. In the case of a fatality, we would wait until the FAA released us back to operations status.

CSPENCE...Thanks...and God Bless Jack! (and all of the other DZO's out there!)

[popsjumper 2]

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Chris, I greatly appreciate your insight and response to the thread....I respectfully ask that you reread what diverdriver wrote

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I told my family flat out that I never wanted them to say "well he died doing something he loved". It just seems like such a rationalization to the risk we take and then impose it apon our family. Our family members usually never see us jump or know the stories we have. They just know that we are gone and died a horrible, painful death. That's all they are left with.

And that's fine for him and his family.
A little different here with respect to the family…we’ve had the discussion and they are perfectly aware of the risk and are completely comfortable with my wish to be celebrated rather than mourned. I would like to think that the comfort and acceptance would carry over to my skydiving friends and family - to those of them to whom I have spoken, it has.

I would think that most skydivers have had discussions with their respective families and have come to their own conclusions on the subject.

But to say "experience" plays a part in making intelligent or inspired decisions in the case at hand is off base. I get the feeling that you are saying that because you guys have been in the sport longer, then your viewpoint is more valid than any other...

So from me...register one more vote on continuing operations.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[riggerrob 643]

Knock on wood, but I have never seen a bounce.
One time I saw the Master Rigger rushing around frantically ... and a harness descending with nothing below the leg straps, so I just steered my tandem student towards the (running) airplane.

When Harley suicided beside the runway at Perris Valley, everyone was pissed that the runway was blocked - by emergency vehicles - and they could not jump for the rest of the afternoon.

Sorry, but just because a couple of people decided to suicide does not justify "standing down" for a day.

[popsjumper 2]

Ageed.

Not having actually witnessed a bounce (and hopefully never to see one) but having been on DZs when two deaths occurred - both were off DZ and neither caused ops to cease...only delayed.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[skygirlpc 0]

Grips,
I think that (as some have already said) it is different for every person. If, God forbid, I go in on a jump I would like to hope that they get back in the air and jump. But if I am ever at the dz, once again God forbid, when someone goes in I don't think that I could get right back in the air. I am a very emotional person and it would take me some time to work it through and get back in the air. So, what I am saying I would want people to do and what I am saying I would do are two different things. I guess that I'm just not tough enough to do what I would want people to do for me!
Danielle

"Life is either a great adventure or nothing." - Helen Keller

[Grips 0]

Its good to hear that most, if not all of the responses were that they would wish for continued jumping, after a death. Its good to know, and helps me to understand that Ops continued the next day. (I do not know if they continued the same day. I will know that later).

Maybe if I had several more jumps, and was more experienced, I would have felt differen't about jumping the next day (or even the same).

*Just to clarify* it wasn't a friend of mine, or anybody close to me, it sounds like that might have been misunderstood.

But, thanks, its good to know that its not a disrespectful thing to continue ops, if something does happen.

[diverdriver 7]

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But to say "experience" plays a part in making intelligent or inspired decisions in the case at hand is off base. I get the feeling that you are saying that because you guys have been in the sport longer, then your viewpoint is more valid than any other...

Your viewpoint is your view point. My viewpoint is from a few more years down the road. I've seen a bit more. Instead of jumping me in the beginning of the thread as overreacting why don't you ask me why I see it that way? Maybe you could learn something. Maybe even about yourself and why you do this sport.


When I started this sport I thought that more than a few people with more experience were just cracked. Maybe I am cracked. Maybe you'll be cracked in a few years and you'll have someone with a year or two experience tell you that you are overreacting/being overprotective/stifling fun. When you do you and I will have more understanding between us.

I never said the poster (to whom I originally responded to) was wrong. Never. The words disturbed me because I've heard them over and over for so many years and I happen to disagree with that rationalization. She has no obligation to change her view because of my post. My being "disturbed" by what she wrote is not her problem. It's my view. Just mine.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[Taylor610 0]

But to say "experience" plays a part in making intelligent or inspired decisions in the case at hand is off base. I get the feeling that you are saying that because you guys have been in the sport longer, then your viewpoint is more valid than any other...

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God Bless you for your opinion, and all I am saying is experience will offer you more of an "view" of all of the aspects. I am not beating you down, merely suggesting that Chris made a statement that holds allot of validity in most cases. I can also share with you from experience, that someone loving the sport, is no consolation for the person delivering the news, nor for the person receiving the news. A loved one is still lost...

Sorry, but just because a couple of people decided to suicide does not justify "standing down" for a day.
***
Nor have I suggested anything of the sort. Please read my post.

[popsjumper 2]

I sent you a PM

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[OATSF14 0]

I agree with the original post. I hope the family can say I died doing what I loved to do. Makes no since otherwise.

[Zenister 0]

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I would love my family to say one day that I died doing what I loved. And I would expect my friends to be back in the sky in my memory.
No use moping around. Go do what you love!
(Oh, and they better be singing in the plane on the way to altitude!)

So you are hoping to go in one day? I find that disturbing.....

I think you are reading more into it than what was meant....

Then they need to choose different words because it's exactly what was said. She's hoping that one day in the future her family says she died skydiving (doing something she loves).

as opposed to dying slowly, painfully lacking full motor functions in a care ward? or killed by a DD in a car wreck? no way... everybody HAS to die... I'd MUCH rather my friends and family KNOW i died doing something i chose to, something that gave me pleasure and enjoyment DESPITE the risks rather than have them remember i died in a hospital bed or by another slow method

i've two friends who were killed attempting to sail around the world.. i miss them often, but i KNOW (from conversations about exactly this) they accepted the risks, accepted their fate, and died MUCH happier than they would have if they had ended their lives trapped in some sterile hospital room....

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.