SwampThing 0 #51 December 11, 2005 I think it's just being pointed out to you that you're being hypocritical when you say it's okay here, but not here. You claim it makes you drive better, perhaps another person feels it makes them skydive better. You lost credibility when you said you wouldn't jump high because of the realized risk, but it's okay to drive high because there isn't any risk. The Pessimist says: "It can't possibly get any worse!" The Optimist says: "Sure it can!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
agent_lead 0 #52 December 11, 2005 i think we can safely assume that driving a car and jumping out of a plane are 2 completly differant beasts...-------------------------------------------- www.facebook.com/agentlead Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #53 December 11, 2005 Quote i think we can safely assume that driving a car and jumping out of a plane are 2 completely different beasts... Quote Not getting it huh... You can assure driving a car and jumping are different. Doing either while impaired will eventually bite you. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
goose491 0 #54 December 12, 2005 WoW, it really is amazing how different things are when you cross an imaginary line. People in the US tend to make a mountain out of a mole-hill when it comes to marijuana use. I don't want to steer this thread into SC or anything, but this is very true as compared to the general view held north of the Border. I've been reading this thread, aware that mentioning a recreational use of marijuana can label someone and have them flamed all to hell. I commend agent-lead and acknowledge the balls it took to be honest about his marijuana use. Fact: The affects of marijuana on ones ability drive safely and efficiently have been tested and tested again. There are none. Fact: Go to any source of info provided by those that make it an illegal substance and you get "There have been no extensive studies.... blah blah blah" Pot is not illegal because of what it does to the mind or the body. Pot is illegal because hemp stood to destroy the Pulp and Paper industry and they lobied against it. Again, not wanting to get all SC on you guys but does anyone ever remember "Weed Rage"? Well if you do, then today you are aware of yet another Fact: Your government has lied to you about this stuff. My Karma ran over my Dogma!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tso-d_chris 0 #55 December 12, 2005 QuoteQuotelol i really dug myself into a hole on this one eh? smoking weed is second nature to me it hinders my driving none... its not the same effect as drinking and driving.. Anybody who believes that is thinking like an absolute fool. I hope you don't kill anyone. Actually, scientific evidence backs up his claim, at least as long as he smokes less than three joints in fifteen minutes, prior to driving. QuoteTHC's effects after doses up to 300 ?g/kg never exceeded alcohol's at BACs of 0.08 g% and were in no way unusual compared to many medicinal drugs (Robbe 1994). Yet THC's effects differ qualitatively from many other drugs, especially alcohol. Evidence from the present and previous studies strongly suggests that alcohol encourages risky driving whereas THC encourages greater caution, at least in experiments. Another way THC seems to differ qualitatively from many other drugs is that the former's users seem better able to compensate for its adverse effects while driving under the influence. For Great Deals on Gear Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
winsor 236 #56 December 12, 2005 Quote Again, not wanting to get all SC on you guys but does anyone ever remember "Weed Rage"? Well if you do, then today you are aware of yet another Fact: Your government has lied to you about this stuff. I beg to differ. In order to lie, you must be aware that what you are saying is untrue. If, on the other hand, you put forth a tale that you believe heart and soul, it is not lying - regardless of the fact that there is not one iota of truth contained therein. Compared to alcohol or tobacco, marijuana is truly a Gift from God (which is, of course, not saying much). In order to oppose legalization of marijuana, one must subscribe to rather a large number of patent falsehoods. Unfortunately these falsehoods are useful to quite a few vested interests - the apprehension industry, the criminal trial industry, the incarceration industry, the pulp and paper industry and so forth - so their veracity is not questioned. I do not happen to touch any mind-altering substances stronger than coffee, so my vested interest is that I am expected to fund policies based on ignorance and stupidity through my taxes. Unfortunately, the dumber the policy, the more vociferous is the defense put forth by those who enforce it; paradoxically, in order to avoid the appearance of stupidity they embrace it wholeheartedly. In any event, if you smoke and jump just try not to bounce, since it makes stoners look bad. Blue skies, Winsor Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #57 December 12, 2005 Goose & tso-d, thanks for your interesting comments, which raise important points. I will respond with my head & not my heart. First of all, there's a huge difference between attitudes on marijuana generally, and attitudes on driving while under the influence of marijuana. I agree that the conservative-based attitudes and criminal laws on marijuana use in the US are often ridiculous and politically-driven. Let me put it this way: you have no idea how many Greatful Dead concerts I attended before some of you were even born; let's just say my attitude is definitely "north of the border". So that's not a source of my opinion. Now my attitude about driving under the influence of marijuana is the same as my attitude about driving under the influence not only of alcohol, but, say, a large enough dosage of prescription painkillers to cause impairment: it's not the same as alcohol, but it's still highly reckless and irresponsible; and the fact that a regular toker may have grown comfortable with driving while high from having done it so often provides me with cold comfort. Put another way, the fact that he hasn't crashed yet is hardly proof that he isn't impaired. As for studies into marijuana & driving impairment, that's actually a tough one. I do a lot of source research for work, so I'm comfortable with the process, and accustomed to identifying researchers' agendas and separating the wheat from the chaff. But on this topic (THC & driving impairment), I found it VERY hard to find NEUTRAL studies or articles, i.e., those that don't have a partisan agenda one way or the other: either they're in the "just say no" camp, like law-enforcement bodies or MADD-based groups (Mothers Against Drunk Driving), or they're in the "pro" camp, like NORML (National Organization on the Reform of Marijuana Laws) or groups aligned with them. So right there, that makes about 90% of the "studies" or articles you'd find in an average Google search to be highly suspect. One study I did find was by the Institute for Human Psychopharmacology at Maastricht University in the Netherlands, commissioned by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA). What made me comfortable with its probable neutrality was (a) it was done in 1999, when the NHTSA was under the control of the Clinton Administration (hardly a bastion of rabid conservatism), and (b) it was done by an independent university in the Netherlands, where attitudes (and laws) on marijuana are about as liberal as anywhere in the world. (Here's the link: http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/people/outreach/traftech/pub/tt201.html ) Read the study, and the methodology, and the raw data; and then read the conclusion: "Marijuana, even in low to moderate doses, negatively affects driving performance in real situations. While previous research on alcohol effects alone show that alcohol at BACs around .10 is far more impairing than low or moderate THC doses alone, marijuana does impair driving performance. Drivers would be less than normally able to avoid collisions if confronted with the sudden need for evasive action." The fact that being high on marijuana may be less of an impairment while driving than being drunk on alcohol does not mean that the impairment is not there. That's why I think it's irresponsible to blow a J and then drive home in rush-hour traffic. And that's why I stand by my previous posts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
goose491 0 #58 December 12, 2005 QuoteQuote Again, not wanting to get all SC on you guys but does anyone ever remember "Weed Rage"? Well if you do, then today you are aware of yet another Fact: Your government has lied to you about this stuff. I beg to differ. In order to lie, you must be aware that what you are saying is untrue. If, on the other hand, you put forth a tale that you believe heart and soul, it is not lying - regardless of the fact that there is not one iota of truth contained therein. So when they said that they knew for fact that smoking weed will have similar effects on a person as say, rabies on a dog, (turning them into irrational, aggressive physical attackers without motive) it was not a lie because... being completely fabricated on the spot, they didn't know it wasn't true. Interesting logic. Fact is, they did declare it as fact... and thusly, it was a lie. My Karma ran over my Dogma!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #59 December 12, 2005 Quote I commend agent-lead and acknowledge the balls it took to be honest about his marijuana use. Quote Hi Goose~ Let me clarify the point I was trying to make. 1st, I have no feelings one way or the other about how smoking dope effects you while jumping and driving... At one time I'd done well more than my fair share of both, the same with drinking...as well as various other recreational party favors. I think if your bricks are cemented in tight enough, it's not a major issue...Back when I did 'partake' my skill level was such that I could hang with the best of 'em even wasted. (I have the trophies to prove it!) My tongue in cheek jab at Mr. Lead is more in regard to the inconsistent opinion he voices that it's okay to drive...nothing will happen, been doing it for years...but it's dangerous and evil to jump under the influence. For me anyway, driving safely is every bit as much of a challenge as skydiving. Both require focus and concentration... The thing with skydiving is, the people jumping are IMO totally focused on the dive, there aren't kids screaming, cell phones ringing, people around you not paying attention... to some degree I feel jumping is almost safer! It is a personal choice..marijuana use, and I do agree the effects are less than drinking. Would I jump with a stoner? Sure, why change now, same with a drinker... I'm just pointing out that it may be somewhat hypocritical to say it's okay here...but not there. That's like saying, it's okay to carry around a hand grenade on Monday and Tuesday, but for safety reasons never do it on Wednesday... 2nd, What I mean by saying that eventually it will bite you... I honestly believe, (now) that if you're doing anything impaired, you're playing the odds. Anything can and does happen around / to you. Be it jumping, driving, jogging, or walking the dog... Your fault or not, the outcome is drastically different in regards to whether you're twisted or straight. Look at what happened at SDC a while back, incidents being blamed on trace amounts of drugs detected in the person... "WE" all know that's likely not the root cause, but that's where the blame gets placed...same with driving, in most states down here...get into an accident with injuries, even if it's clearly not your fault, and they find you to be under the influence....you're fucked...big time! Came a time that personal 'cost - benefit analysis' changed my habits on drug & alcohol use. It's no longer worth the risk to me to break the law, I have too much to lose. Given my experiences, far be for me to tell someone else they shouldn't indulge... If Agent-Lead smokes dope when he drives but not when he jumps...good for him, his choice. But I don't think he's being honest with himself when he draws 'his' imaginary line. Party on Dooods! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites goose491 0 #60 December 12, 2005 QuoteAs for studies into marijuana & driving impairment, that's actually a tough one... I found it VERY hard to find NEUTRAL studies or articles, I agree it's tough to find. I would present that it would be risky business to put out word that you had findings contrary to big brother... nowadays however, it's getting easier and easier to speak the truth. I can't seem to find anything about it online, but the study I had seen was actual closed circuit course driving tests, performed by a University in Montreal, Quebec. They had a number of volunteer drive the courses, then do them again after smoking twice the amount of pot each volunteer admited to consuming regularily (to err on the side of the effects of the plant) Pretty tough for me to figure out what personal agenda the shcool would have you know? My Karma ran over my Dogma!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airtwardo 7 #61 December 12, 2005 Quotewas actual closed circuit course driving tests... *** As opposed to 'real driving situations' as quoted in the Netherlands study... I for one always concentrated more at 'test' time than I do normally. I also know back when I was a smoker, I drove a whole lot better with a Black & White behind me than I did with a multi colored VW minibus! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tso-d_chris 0 #62 December 12, 2005 There are numerous neutral studies that show that impairment due to THC is minimal, on par with over the counter cold medicine, with recreational dosages. Some of these studies have been done for and/or commissioned by the NHTSA. BTW I'm pretty good about identifying credible studies, as well. I'm not condoning smoking and driving, nor smoking and jumping. I don't care either way. Evidence has been sought unsuccessfully to show the impairment caused by THC is similar to impairment caused by alcohol. The fact is, THC impairment is minimal, by comparison. I'm far more worried about drivers that drive while talking on their cell phones than I am about drivers who might have smoked a joint before or during their drive. For Great Deals on Gear Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites goose491 0 #63 December 12, 2005 QuoteQuotewas actual closed circuit course driving tests... *** As opposed to 'real driving situations' as quoted in the Netherlands study... I for one always concentrated more at 'test' time than I do normally. I also know back when I was a smoker, I drove a whole lot better with a Black & White behind me than I did with a multi colored VW minibus! I know what you're saying, but not sure what you're getting at. In either scenario, the drivers being tested were aware that they were being tested right? So it matters not if it was closed course, or on the actual road. My Karma ran over my Dogma!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andy9o8 2 #64 December 12, 2005 QuoteI also know back when I was a smoker, I drove a whole lot better with a Black & White behind me than I did with a multi colored VW minibus! Uh..I have it on good authority that that minibus was actually white...you only thought it was multi-colored.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites RossDagley 0 #65 December 15, 2005 Quotelol man i been doing it for 14 years every day... i have never been in an accident..ever.. Yeah - and I've been falling asleep at the wheel whilst driving for over 10 years too, thinking I'd always get away with it. Earlier this year it bit and I almost wrote my car off. Could have been a whole lot worse. When you kill someone, I'm sure the line "I've been doing it without a problem for 14 years until now" will really help the victims family... 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goose491 0 #60 December 12, 2005 QuoteAs for studies into marijuana & driving impairment, that's actually a tough one... I found it VERY hard to find NEUTRAL studies or articles, I agree it's tough to find. I would present that it would be risky business to put out word that you had findings contrary to big brother... nowadays however, it's getting easier and easier to speak the truth. I can't seem to find anything about it online, but the study I had seen was actual closed circuit course driving tests, performed by a University in Montreal, Quebec. They had a number of volunteer drive the courses, then do them again after smoking twice the amount of pot each volunteer admited to consuming regularily (to err on the side of the effects of the plant) Pretty tough for me to figure out what personal agenda the shcool would have you know? My Karma ran over my Dogma!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #61 December 12, 2005 Quotewas actual closed circuit course driving tests... *** As opposed to 'real driving situations' as quoted in the Netherlands study... I for one always concentrated more at 'test' time than I do normally. I also know back when I was a smoker, I drove a whole lot better with a Black & White behind me than I did with a multi colored VW minibus! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tso-d_chris 0 #62 December 12, 2005 There are numerous neutral studies that show that impairment due to THC is minimal, on par with over the counter cold medicine, with recreational dosages. Some of these studies have been done for and/or commissioned by the NHTSA. BTW I'm pretty good about identifying credible studies, as well. I'm not condoning smoking and driving, nor smoking and jumping. I don't care either way. Evidence has been sought unsuccessfully to show the impairment caused by THC is similar to impairment caused by alcohol. The fact is, THC impairment is minimal, by comparison. I'm far more worried about drivers that drive while talking on their cell phones than I am about drivers who might have smoked a joint before or during their drive. For Great Deals on Gear Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
goose491 0 #63 December 12, 2005 QuoteQuotewas actual closed circuit course driving tests... *** As opposed to 'real driving situations' as quoted in the Netherlands study... I for one always concentrated more at 'test' time than I do normally. I also know back when I was a smoker, I drove a whole lot better with a Black & White behind me than I did with a multi colored VW minibus! I know what you're saying, but not sure what you're getting at. In either scenario, the drivers being tested were aware that they were being tested right? So it matters not if it was closed course, or on the actual road. My Karma ran over my Dogma!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #64 December 12, 2005 QuoteI also know back when I was a smoker, I drove a whole lot better with a Black & White behind me than I did with a multi colored VW minibus! Uh..I have it on good authority that that minibus was actually white...you only thought it was multi-colored.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RossDagley 0 #65 December 15, 2005 Quotelol man i been doing it for 14 years every day... i have never been in an accident..ever.. Yeah - and I've been falling asleep at the wheel whilst driving for over 10 years too, thinking I'd always get away with it. Earlier this year it bit and I almost wrote my car off. Could have been a whole lot worse. When you kill someone, I'm sure the line "I've been doing it without a problem for 14 years until now" will really help the victims family... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
