Long Spots

[lisamariewillbe 1]

If the spot is a bit long, but a jumper leaves the aircraft anyways (jumper may not want to make the pilot do a go around, because their the only group left in the plane and its not that long, and it might be possible to get back to the DZ) what does the jumper need to know .... ie do we pull higher, leave the toggles stowed etc etc?

I did this recently but didnt pull higher then planned, and did not have wind drift indication so I ended up landing down wind in a field of animals. However I am thinking that since I wasnt to far off I could have done something different to make it back. I however did not change my flight pattern (minus the flared turn) and as soon as I opened and realized I wasnt going to make it back I just picked a place... instead of thinking of a way to get back.

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[kelel01 1]

What I was told in my canopy course is that you need to try different options - flying in half brakes, 3/4 brakes, deep brakes, on rears, etc., to determine what gives YOUR canopy the flattest glide in EACH GIVEN SITUATION (downwind, into the wind, etc.). It might take a while to figure it out.

Of course, someone on here with actual EXPERIENCE, as opposed to something they were taught, might have a better, simpler answer for you.

[dragon2 2]

If you're not the last out, generally don't pull higher.
Don't leave your toggles stowed, or at least get them un-stowed before your decision altitude, people have had problems with stuck toggles at low altitudes before...
If you're running with the wind, some brakes or rear risers (depending on your canopy) will help keep you in the air longer so you'll fly further.
Get-back-itis will hurt you more than landing downwind in a field somewhere, so if you can't make it back or are not sure, just do what you did and pick a field by 1500 ft or so. You don't need a wind indicator per se, you should know the wind direction before you go up, and if you know jumprun and where the airport is you should have a good idea of the wind, if not you can do windchecks. Try to stick together as a group when landing out, and maybe one of the others does know the wind. But if you still don't know, or the wind changed or something, landing downwind is way preferable over a low turn. And maybe not getting out is preferable over landing out in the firstplace

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[skybytch 273]

Sounds like you did the right thing considering your experience level - that is, you picked a safe landing area up high and commited to it.

Pulling higher is an option but depending on where you are in the exit order and how many other people are in the air with you sometimes it's not the best option.

Leaving the toggles stowed (which effectively has you flying in half brakes) is also an option, but again may not be the best option. If you choose to do this release them above your decision altitude, just in case.

Once you're jumping your own canopy, definitely spend some time up high in different wind conditions determining what you need to do to get the best glide out of your canopy at your wingloading. This is something that is taught and practiced in most canopy control courses (yet another reason they are worth doing).

[sundevil777 102]

Many different opinions that can vary depending on your canopy, but I think that you'll usually go farther with the wind if you hold some brakes or rear risers. For going into a really strong wind that has you going backwards it may be best to use front risers to increase your forward speeed and reduce your time in the air (going backwards).

I think an important thing for you to remember is to always know the direction the wind is coming from based on landmarks. You should never have a downwinder just because you can't see a wind sock. If the wind is so slight that it doesn't matter, then it is easy, but you should always know the general wind direction and how to align your out landing.

Sometimes picking your landing spot right away is best, it might be safest/away from obstacles or near a road for easy hitchiking. Other times you can glide back a long way before needing to commit to your landing spot.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[Superman32 0]

I'll also add a little comment from a canopy course.
Spread your chest strap as far as it will go and bring the slider down the risers and behind your head. This should also help flatten your glide.

Another little hint, if you unstow your brakes lines but still want to fly in brakes, put your hands through the toggles and grab on to your MLW or your leg straps. This will reduce the amount of effort needed to hold down the toggles.

Inveniam Viam aut Faciam
I'm back biatches!

[skybytch 273]

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put your hands through the toggles and grab on to your MLW or your leg straps.

Good point. I put my thumbs into the hip rings, works great.

[billvon 3,116]

>what does the jumper need to know ....

1. Know the outs. At least take a look at them (drive by, check em out under canopy) to see which outs are useful and which are dangerous, and which have things like powerlines next to them.

2. Know the wind. Check it before takeoff; it will probably be the same when you're landing. (And if you land out there probably won't be a windsock to help you.)

3. Don't open high unless you are the last out _and_ jump run is into the wind, or winds are light.

4. If you are upwind, generally some level of brakes (1/4 to 1/2) will get you farthest. If you are downwind, then full flight is generally best. If you are backing up, front risers will get you down faster (and thus you won't back up as much.)

5. If you have time and know how to do it, kill your slider, pull it down, loosen your chest strap and pull your legstraps forward so you can sit more than hang.

6. Gear maintenance for best glide:
-Ensure collapsible PC is working well (or get one)
-Ensure there is enough slack in brake lines
-Replace line sets regularly

[lisamariewillbe 1]

Thanks all , some clarification...

Where I was, the previous two loads had landed with hanger on the right, so thats what I picked (granted winds were only about 5ish, so it wasnt a huge deal but with the elavation difference (approx 1000 ft higher, it made for faster landings) I had considered doing a crosswind landing but I have only done that twice (on purpose) and felt more confident in just going the way I had planned when I thought I could get back.

I couldnt stay with my group because I pull at 4 and they pull at 2500 I didnt even see them but for a few seconds.

Im glad I didnt mess up considering my level. I feel a bit better, and it wont bug me as much anymore

I did not loosen my chest straps... at this point once I am gear checked and pin checked I still choose to remain that way until I recieve formal canopy coaching.

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[tbrown 26]

Between now and your first canopy course, buy a copy of Brian Germain's "The Parachute and Its Pilot". This is a most excellent book that begins with pretty much the assumption that the reader knows nothing about canopies or flying them and builds on the basics. Eventually someday you might be interested in the second half of the book, if & when you think you'd like to try swooping. But the first half has a really good chapter on how to set up apporaches in different wind conditions; crosswind, downind, against the wind, long and difficult spots, etc. There's also great stuff about avoiding canopy collapse, how to NOT spin up an open canopy, and long standard straight in approaches. It's packed with information you need to know and when you get to a canopy course, bring the book with you.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[squirrel 0]

this may seem a bit out of line, but an off landing once in awhile to me is ok. i like the challenge. but i am coming from the world of flying hot air balloons, we always land "off" so to speek. landing off keeps me sharp, gets me back to actually looking for a landing area, analyzing the area, checking the wind, and barn storming it in to a new place.

a technique we use when flying balloons to locate power lines, dont look for the lines, look for the poles or towers, and possibly power line paths, or roads, cut through the normal landscape. cheers

________________________________
Where is Darwin when you need him?

[faulknerwn 38]

I like landing off too :-) Its fun to meet new neighbors! Heck - last time I was in Perris Valley I landed off 4 times in one day chasing gear - I became good friends with the pickup guy....

Heck - 2 of our last 3 CRW records we haven't landed anywhere near the airport :-) The world is our dropzone!

W

[lisamariewillbe 1]

I didnt enjoy it, esp with the fact that it was a brand new DZ to me (Perris) and it was in a herd of animals, it makes for a interesting story, and the story gets better everytime I tell it.... but I would prefer to land on the DZ

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[EvilLurker 2]

One big help in getting back from a long spot is making the frontal area of your body as small as possible. Sit back in your harness, get your knees up and keep your elbows close to your body. Partial brakes might help, depending on your canopy. I got the best glide when flying downwind with about 1/4 brakes, but I'm sure it varies. Getting "small" is what really helped me out, though, and I've gotten back from some loooong spots (every time, I never did land out).
I throw my PC at 3500, also, which is a huge advantage.

[Ron 10]

Control inputs will differ depending on the type of canopy you have and if you are up wind or down wind.

Do a search for "Magic Spot" and see what you get.

It is a useful tool to give you an idea on where you are going to land and what inputs help or hurt your glide ratio.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[CrazyL 0]

Reading this post provides some very helpful hints for landing out decision making.On PD's website there is good info regarding accuracy and the long spot,great short reads i'd suggest. Once the decision to land out has been made collect data asap. Where? open area near road/pathway. Obstacles? look and look again. Power lines/ fences? Looking for poles/paths in landscape. Winds? Like billvon mentioned 'know wind direction prior to leaving the ground',it helps. Look for water, can see wind on water. Learn how to read wind on water. Under canopy ground speed check. Figure out which direction forward speed is slowest. Try to know by 1500 feet. Prepare for PLF, walk away.

[artistcalledian 0]

Quote

Between now and your first canopy course, buy a copy of Brian Germain's "The Parachute and Its Pilot". This is a most excellent book that begins with pretty much the assumption that the reader knows nothing about canopies or flying them and builds on the basics. Eventually someday you might be interested in the second half of the book, if & when you think you'd like to try swooping. But the first half has a really good chapter on how to set up apporaches in different wind conditions; crosswind, downind, against the wind, long and difficult spots, etc. There's also great stuff about avoiding canopy collapse, how to NOT spin up an open canopy, and long standard straight in approaches. It's packed with information you need to know and when you get to a canopy course, bring the book with you.

i bought that book, excellent read !

________________________________________
drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police

[sky-pimp 0]

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Spread your chest strap as far as it will go

i'm sure i've been told this !!! but what does it acheve for getting back from a long spot ???

---

YeHaaaaaaaaaaa

[davelepka 4]

If you open up, and are far-ish from the DZ, choose a landing area between yourself and the DZ that you are sure you can make by pattern altitude (the altitude you normally enter the pattern). This may be right below you depending on conditions. If you do not see any clear areas between yourself and the DZ, turn around and find a suitable landing area, and forget about the DZ.

Being last out will generally have you upwind of the DZ, in which case try flying in half brakes, this will help your glide (only with the wind at your back, such as when you are upwind, and flying toward the DZ).

Once you are over your chosen field, check your altitude. If you are above your pattern altitude, look again inbetween yourself and the DZ to see if there is another field you are sure you can make by pattern altitude. if so, proceed toward that field.

Keep up the 'stepping stone' method unitl you reach the DZ or you hit your pattern altitude. The idea is to always have a clear field within your reach, and give up on making it closer to the DZ when you reach your pattern altitude. This is the point where you procced with your landing as you planned, just in a different location.

All of your altitudes (downwind, base and final) will be the same, as will the direction of all your turns (N,S,E,W). This is why you need to know the wind direction, jump run direction, and the relation of several landmarks in refernce to the DZ. Simply knowing to 'land toward the hanger' doesn't help if you cannot see the hanger.

Yes, it is complicated, and there is some info you need going in to help you make desicoins while in the air. This is where a written flight plan, including wind direction and speed, jump run direction, DZ and landmarks will help to illustrate the situation before you go up. Sooner of later this will become second nature.

A few tips:

- A suitable landing area is one that allows you to fly your intended pattern. A field with an irruglar shape may not allow this, and should be lower on your list of places to land.

- Keep in mind that you have to get out of where ever you land. Animals, lakes, rivers, ditches, highways and such will make this harder. The best choice may not be the closest to the DZ. If you have the choice, land closer to a road for your own convienence (this porvided you have a safe suitable possible landing area near a road).

- Plan ahead, plan ahead, plan ahead. The wriiten flight plan will help you to see the big picture. Where you'll be jumping, where you'll need to fly, and how the wind will play into this. You only need to do this before your first jump each day (unless there are significant changes to the wind speed or direction, in which case make up another plan). Soon enough you will understand the mechanics of it all, and you won't need to write it down to understand you course of action.


Take advanatge of some canopy coaching as soon as possible. Ask specific questions about off field landings, and ideas for making the most out of them. As you saw, you are open to landing off on any jump, should be ready to do so every time you leave the airplane.

Good job not running into a tree, or a cow, like many others seem to do.

[lisamariewillbe 1]

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or a cow, like many others seem to do

I did run into a animal.... but I landed in a huge herd of them.... and I tried yelling at them to move ....

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[davelepka 4]

Sorry, my mistake. Actually blame the livestock, they didn't move as per your instructions. That's probably why they'll end up as dinner soon.

[lisamariewillbe 1]

lol yea blame them.... hey most of them moved... then it got down to 2, and then one moved, but well I hit the one in the rear while trying to flare turn .... I had never turned below 300 feet before so I was a bit nervous about it but that minor turn had me nip him instead of a head on collide

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[artistcalledian 0]

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lol yea blame them.... hey most of them moved... then it got down to 2, and then one moved, but well I hit the one in the rear while trying to flare turn .... I had never turned below 300 feet before so I was a bit nervous about it but that minor turn had me nip him instead of a head on collide

did you get your foot stuck up its arse?

________________________________________
drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police

[CrazyL 0]

I would'nt unfasten the chest strap though.

[Ron 10]

Quote

i'm sure i've been told this !!! but what does it acheve for getting back from a long spot ???

It allows the risers to spread a bit. This allows the canopy to flatten out some.

Lift is generated directly in the opposite direction from the surface. So if the canopy has a sharp bow in it some of the lift is wasted by going out insted of up. Buy flattening out, more lift is supposed to be available.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334