jumpjunkie2004 0 #1 January 4, 2006 After having 10 super soft landings six of them stand-ups, on 12/28/05, I broke my left ankle on jump #62. I flared at the right height, but the winds were funky. Instead of setting me down gently, my canopy picked me up and dropped me down pretty hard. Here's what I did wrong: 1. Flared a too hard for the wind conditions. 2. When I started to fall, I think I reached for the ground with my left hand which made me tip over. I didn't keep my toggles even. 3. I didn't check the winds before I went up. 4. I didn't save enough flare. This was my fifth broken ankle - second from skydiving(Jump #7). It is possible that someone less breakable would have escaped this without a trip to the orthopedic guy's office. Hopefully, someone will read this post and will avoid making these same mistakes. Always check the wind speed and direction before you go up. Don't forget to save some flare, and keep both hands at the same level. Be safe :)Jump, Land, Pack, Repeat... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LawnDart21 0 #2 January 4, 2006 Don't beat yourself up. Live and learn. Quote3. I didn't check the winds before I went up. Most experienced jumpers don't do that either. (Turn to a jumper, any jumper, at 8000ft and ask them what the ground winds and winds aloft are doing, and chances are you'll get a "deer in headlights" look from them. Or if they are slick, they'll say "They are honking", and change the subject.....lol QuoteWhen I started to fall, I think I reached for the ground with my left hand which made me tip over. I didn't keep my toggles even. Many the crash resulting from that move in our sport. It basically flys (turns) the canopy into the ground. As a general rule, the smaller the canopy, the bigger the mess. QuoteDon't forget to save some flare Save for what? The next jump? -- My other ride is a RESERVE. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Orange1 0 #3 January 4, 2006 Hope your ankle heals quickly. Can you explain exactly what you mean by "funky" winds? I've twice been lifted and dumped by the canopy after starting my flare, both times in pretty thermic conditions. In the first instance the same thing happened to a TI on the same load (i.e. I do believe it was the conditions rather than my experience level). 2nd time was on Monday when I had a very nasty final approach - canopy kept on feeling like it wanted to collapse (this after a rather edgy canopy flight through a number of thermals, needless to say I didn't jump again that day). Both times I just held my flare where it was till I felt I was low enough again to finish it, but of course there's not enough speed left for a decent landing. Couple of questions maybe some more experienced guys can answer: 1 - does WL affect this kind of thing? (i'm only about 0.75 at the moment) 2- what IS the best way to salvage a situation where your canopy feels rocky on final? I kept it in full flight as taught but am wondering whether it wouldn't have been better to fly in some brakes and take a PLF. Then again, if I had done that, like jumpjunkie I may not have had enough flare left to land ok after I got picked up? 3- any other suggestions re handling a "pick up"?Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumpjunkie2004 0 #4 January 4, 2006 thank god I have a 210 :) I don't need to beat myself up - I have a entire family of whuffos that are taking care of that - they've got it covered :(Jump, Land, Pack, Repeat... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cocheese 0 #5 January 4, 2006 Remember when you were learning how to ride a bike ?I got pretty scraped up while learning. But they all kept saying it was easy. It wasn't. Then one day it was easy. Thirty three years later and i'm still falling off bikes here and there. Moral of story ? There isn't one. Skydiving and bikes are dangerous. Hit the pea pit ? Wishing you soft landings. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LawnDart21 0 #6 January 4, 2006 One suggestion I would make regarding your reaching for the ground is this: One of the best habits you can form in landing your canopy is an even, symmetrical flare. Regardless of Upwind, downwind, crosswind landing direction, giving the canopy an even symmetrical flare will give you the greatest chances for success. (Some people will suggest steering into a turn/crosswind landing as you flare, I disagree with that emphatically). Anyways, what I found helped me and others I have suggested it to, is to verbally (aloud) repeat to yourself "together, together, together" during your flare. Its a mental and audible cue to keep your hands together (symmetrical) during your flare. If you see a hand start to go lower than the other, get louder "TOGETHER, TOGETHER, TOGETHER!" until your hands are level again. Repeat "together" to yourself from the moment you start the flare till your canopy has stopped fling. Its hokey, but it works. -- My other ride is a RESERVE. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumpjunkie2004 0 #7 January 4, 2006 Thanks for your well wishes. It was pretty windy and my canopy was bumpy before I flared. The guy watchin said it was rippling. I never realized that my canopy could pick me up like that. Some of the guys that use high performance canopies at my DZ do it all the time. They just know how to make themselves "pop up". It didn't occur to me that could happen on my Spectre 210.Jump, Land, Pack, Repeat... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #8 January 4, 2006 one more 5. Was not ready to/did not PLF...____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #9 January 5, 2006 QuoteAnyways, what I found helped me and others I have suggested it to, is to verbally (aloud) repeat to yourself "together, together, together" during your flare. Its a mental and audible cue to keep your hands together (symmetrical) during your flare. If you see a hand start to go lower than the other, get louder "TOGETHER, TOGETHER, TOGETHER!" until your hands are level again. Repeat "together" to yourself from the moment you start the flare till your canopy has stopped fling. Good idea. Another thing that I've found helps me to flare symetrically is to flare to the center of the body instead of to the sides - ie at the end of the flare your hands are in your crotch, not at your hips. Keeps your hands within your peripheral vision, making it easier to see when one is higher than the other. It also helps me to avoid reaching - kinda hard to reach with one hand when both of them are in your crotch. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #10 January 5, 2006 QuoteMost experienced jumpers don't do that either. (Turn to a jumper, any jumper, at 8000ft and ask them what the ground winds and winds aloft are doing, and chances are you'll get a "deer in headlights" look from them. Or if they are slick, they'll say "They are honking", and change the subject.....lol Quote I got into the habit some years back... Of making it a ritual to grab a handful of grass and throwing it up in the air as I get ready to board the aircraft, and making a conscious mental note of which way I'll be facing when landing... I do of course check the wind sock...blades etc, on the way down...but in the back of my mind I kind of know what to expect. Another habit I got into from doing a lot of demos, is looking around for things indicating wind direction and speed off the DZ....things like smoke from a factory or trash fire...flags on buildings...the general 'track' the plane is taking across the ground... You have to ask yourself, which way would I land if there was an emergency and I had to exit...here and now. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yamtx73 0 #11 January 5, 2006 QuoteQuoteAnyways, what I found helped me and others I have suggested it to, is to verbally (aloud) repeat to yourself "together, together, together" during your flare. Its a mental and audible cue to keep your hands together (symmetrical) during your flare. If you see a hand start to go lower than the other, get louder "TOGETHER, TOGETHER, TOGETHER!" until your hands are level again. Repeat "together" to yourself from the moment you start the flare till your canopy has stopped fling. Good idea. Another thing that I've found helps me to flare symetrically is to flare to the center of the body instead of to the sides - ie at the end of the flare your hands are in your crotch, not at your hips. Keeps your hands within your peripheral vision, making it easier to see when one is higher than the other. It also helps me to avoid reaching - kinda hard to reach with one hand when both of them are in your crotch. That's the way I was taught to flare, bring both hands together in your crotch. It does prevent you from putting your hand out, plus it puts your arms in position should you need to do a PLF.The only naturals in this sport shit thru feathers... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZigZagMarquis 9 #12 January 5, 2006 QuoteAfter having 10 super soft landings six of them stand-ups, on 12/28/05, I broke my left ankle on jump #62. I flared at the right height, but the winds were funky. Instead of setting me down gently, my canopy picked me up and dropped me down pretty hard. Here's what I did wrong: 1. Flared a too hard for the wind conditions. 2. When I started to fall, I think I reached for the ground with my left hand which made me tip over. I didn't keep my toggles even. 3. I didn't check the winds before I went up. 4. I didn't save enough flare. This was my fifth broken ankle - second from skydiving(Jump #7). It is possible that someone less breakable would have escaped this without a trip to the orthopedic guy's office. Hopefully, someone will read this post and will avoid making these same mistakes. Always check the wind speed and direction before you go up. Don't forget to save some flare, and keep both hands at the same level. Be safe :) JumpJunkie, Sorry to hear that you bent yourself and I hope you heal up just fine... welcome to the broken bones club... Also, Thanks for posting and, if I may, I'd like to say "good on you" for taking responsibility for what happened and not blaming things on others, gear, the earth rotated, etc. Again, I hope you heal up good as new. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites OSOK 0 #13 January 5, 2006 Quote One of the best habits you can form in landing your canopy is an even, symmetrical flare. Regardless of Upwind, downwind, crosswind landing direction, giving the canopy an even symmetrical flare will give you the greatest chances for success. (Some people will suggest steering into a turn/crosswind landing as you flare, I disagree with that emphatically). Excuse me if in wrong... but are you suggesting that it's better to land moving sideways as you land crossing than having an asymetrical flare to make sure you touch down going forward only? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites LawnDart21 0 #14 January 5, 2006 QuoteExcuse me if in wrong... but are you suggesting that it's better to land moving sideways as you land crossing than having an asymetrical flare to make sure you touch down going forward only? Yes. The most important thing on any landing (HP wing over swoops/carves excluded), into the wind, downwind, crosswind, is that you have a level canopy over your head. Trying to turn into the wind has caused countless unnecessary injuries in our sport. Go skim the incident reports and see how many low turn injury incidents you can find where it states "jumper was attempting to turn into the wind too low". Trust me, there are alot in there. You may not always stand up a cross wind landing, but with a level canopy over your head, chances are you will walk away from it with nothing more than a couple of grass stains. -- My other ride is a RESERVE. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wmw999 2,587 #15 January 5, 2006 QuoteExcuse me if in wrong... but are you suggesting that it's better to land moving sideways as you land crossing than having an asymetrical flare to make sure you touch down going forward only?QuoteYes. What he said. You can always PLF if you're coming in more sideways than you can run off. However, if you're going down fast because of that late turn, your PLF has to be a whole lot better. Here is an article by Skratch Garrison on the topic. Skratch has been jumping since the 1960's in a stellar manner. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites seejanefall 0 #16 January 5, 2006 I am really sorry to hear about your newest ankle injury. I hope you heal quickly. _____________ PMS #394 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites seejanefall 0 #17 January 5, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteAnyways, what I found helped me and others I have suggested it to, is to verbally (aloud) repeat to yourself "together, together, together" during your flare. Its a mental and audible cue to keep your hands together (symmetrical) during your flare. If you see a hand start to go lower than the other, get louder "TOGETHER, TOGETHER, TOGETHER!" until your hands are level again. Repeat "together" to yourself from the moment you start the flare till your canopy has stopped fling. Good idea. Another thing that I've found helps me to flare symetrically is to flare to the center of the body instead of to the sides - ie at the end of the flare your hands are in your crotch, not at your hips. Keeps your hands within your peripheral vision, making it easier to see when one is higher than the other. It also helps me to avoid reaching - kinda hard to reach with one hand when both of them are in your crotch. That's the way I was taught to flare, bring both hands together in your crotch. It does prevent you from putting your hand out, plus it puts your arms in position should you need to do a PLF. I was always told by Ralph to "Flare to your plaything" (edited to add this was instruction on student sized canopies, I know my 150 has a different flare point) _____________ PMS #394 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites artistcalledian 0 #18 January 5, 2006 its little things that stick in your mind... the next jump i do i'll say out aloud TOGETHER and flair to the centre of my body, cheers________________________________________ drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jumpjunkie2004 0 #19 January 5, 2006 There is no one to blame but myself. I know that. I'm guilty of not checking the winds. I'm guilty of not knowing my canopy better - I really had no clue that my canopy could pick me up like that. I can attribute some of my situation to lack of experience, but the bottom line is that we are each responsible for ourselves. Do we have a secret broken bones club handshake? Jump, Land, Pack, Repeat... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,114 #20 January 5, 2006 >but are you suggesting that it's better to land moving sideways as >you land crossing than having an asymetrical flare to make sure you >touch down going forward only? At first - yes. Most people who try to compensate this way do it the wrong way - they stick their hand out to 'break their fall' and end up turning their canopies _away_ from the wind. This is bad. A symmetrical flare is your best bet initially; it will slow you down quite a bit and allow you to PLF. Once you get more experience, it's better to flare-turn so that you end up into the wind; this gets you the slowest possible landing. It's a good technique to learn, but should be learned under good conditions before you try it 'for real' to save your butt. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pilotdave 0 #21 January 5, 2006 I think it's also important to point out that a parachute can't be landed "wing low" like a plane can to compensate for crosswind drift. The options are to land wings level with a little crosswind component, or turn to face more into the wind and finish off wings level. A parachute can't maintain a sideslip. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mdrejhon 8 #22 January 5, 2006 QuoteAfter having 10 super soft landingsAsk me about my experiences after my brake lines got replaced (about jump 70ish) - nothing as bad as you, but a few scary landings. It wasn't until I learned about monitoring something called "tail deflection" when familiarizing myself with a new flare band. I kept my hands all the way up to the stops, and when I flared, I had no flare until I pulled about 7 inches. It threw off my flare timing, leading to some exciting landings, and my first tarmac landing (nearly lost my balance on that one). It made me pretty frustrated until I figured out I needed to start my flare just before tail deflection, not all the way to the stops -- because the new brake lines (PD specs) were much more loose than my old brake lines. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites OSOK 0 #23 January 6, 2006 QuoteQuoteExcuse me if in wrong... but are you suggesting that it's better to land moving sideways as you land crossing than having an asymetrical flare to make sure you touch down going forward only? Yes. The most important thing on any landing (HP wing over swoops/carves excluded), into the wind, downwind, crosswind, is that you have a level canopy over your head. Trying to turn into the wind has caused countless unnecessary injuries in our sport. Go skim the incident reports and see how many low turn injury incidents you can find where it states "jumper was attempting to turn into the wind too low". Trust me, there are alot in there. You may not always stand up a cross wind landing, but with a level canopy over your head, chances are you will walk away from it with nothing more than a couple of grass stains. Ok, I think you got me wrong. I did not mean a turn as in "damn, I'm crosswind I need to face upwind to land right." I meant the kind of asymetrical flare where you're about to touch down and maybe didn't line it up 100% right and the canopy starts to fly a bit sideways, you compenstate to keep it level. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
OSOK 0 #13 January 5, 2006 Quote One of the best habits you can form in landing your canopy is an even, symmetrical flare. Regardless of Upwind, downwind, crosswind landing direction, giving the canopy an even symmetrical flare will give you the greatest chances for success. (Some people will suggest steering into a turn/crosswind landing as you flare, I disagree with that emphatically). Excuse me if in wrong... but are you suggesting that it's better to land moving sideways as you land crossing than having an asymetrical flare to make sure you touch down going forward only? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LawnDart21 0 #14 January 5, 2006 QuoteExcuse me if in wrong... but are you suggesting that it's better to land moving sideways as you land crossing than having an asymetrical flare to make sure you touch down going forward only? Yes. The most important thing on any landing (HP wing over swoops/carves excluded), into the wind, downwind, crosswind, is that you have a level canopy over your head. Trying to turn into the wind has caused countless unnecessary injuries in our sport. Go skim the incident reports and see how many low turn injury incidents you can find where it states "jumper was attempting to turn into the wind too low". Trust me, there are alot in there. You may not always stand up a cross wind landing, but with a level canopy over your head, chances are you will walk away from it with nothing more than a couple of grass stains. -- My other ride is a RESERVE. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,587 #15 January 5, 2006 QuoteExcuse me if in wrong... but are you suggesting that it's better to land moving sideways as you land crossing than having an asymetrical flare to make sure you touch down going forward only?QuoteYes. What he said. You can always PLF if you're coming in more sideways than you can run off. However, if you're going down fast because of that late turn, your PLF has to be a whole lot better. Here is an article by Skratch Garrison on the topic. Skratch has been jumping since the 1960's in a stellar manner. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
seejanefall 0 #16 January 5, 2006 I am really sorry to hear about your newest ankle injury. I hope you heal quickly. _____________ PMS #394 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
seejanefall 0 #17 January 5, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteAnyways, what I found helped me and others I have suggested it to, is to verbally (aloud) repeat to yourself "together, together, together" during your flare. Its a mental and audible cue to keep your hands together (symmetrical) during your flare. If you see a hand start to go lower than the other, get louder "TOGETHER, TOGETHER, TOGETHER!" until your hands are level again. Repeat "together" to yourself from the moment you start the flare till your canopy has stopped fling. Good idea. Another thing that I've found helps me to flare symetrically is to flare to the center of the body instead of to the sides - ie at the end of the flare your hands are in your crotch, not at your hips. Keeps your hands within your peripheral vision, making it easier to see when one is higher than the other. It also helps me to avoid reaching - kinda hard to reach with one hand when both of them are in your crotch. That's the way I was taught to flare, bring both hands together in your crotch. It does prevent you from putting your hand out, plus it puts your arms in position should you need to do a PLF. I was always told by Ralph to "Flare to your plaything" (edited to add this was instruction on student sized canopies, I know my 150 has a different flare point) _____________ PMS #394 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
artistcalledian 0 #18 January 5, 2006 its little things that stick in your mind... the next jump i do i'll say out aloud TOGETHER and flair to the centre of my body, cheers________________________________________ drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumpjunkie2004 0 #19 January 5, 2006 There is no one to blame but myself. I know that. I'm guilty of not checking the winds. I'm guilty of not knowing my canopy better - I really had no clue that my canopy could pick me up like that. I can attribute some of my situation to lack of experience, but the bottom line is that we are each responsible for ourselves. Do we have a secret broken bones club handshake? Jump, Land, Pack, Repeat... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,114 #20 January 5, 2006 >but are you suggesting that it's better to land moving sideways as >you land crossing than having an asymetrical flare to make sure you >touch down going forward only? At first - yes. Most people who try to compensate this way do it the wrong way - they stick their hand out to 'break their fall' and end up turning their canopies _away_ from the wind. This is bad. A symmetrical flare is your best bet initially; it will slow you down quite a bit and allow you to PLF. Once you get more experience, it's better to flare-turn so that you end up into the wind; this gets you the slowest possible landing. It's a good technique to learn, but should be learned under good conditions before you try it 'for real' to save your butt. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #21 January 5, 2006 I think it's also important to point out that a parachute can't be landed "wing low" like a plane can to compensate for crosswind drift. The options are to land wings level with a little crosswind component, or turn to face more into the wind and finish off wings level. A parachute can't maintain a sideslip. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mdrejhon 8 #22 January 5, 2006 QuoteAfter having 10 super soft landingsAsk me about my experiences after my brake lines got replaced (about jump 70ish) - nothing as bad as you, but a few scary landings. It wasn't until I learned about monitoring something called "tail deflection" when familiarizing myself with a new flare band. I kept my hands all the way up to the stops, and when I flared, I had no flare until I pulled about 7 inches. It threw off my flare timing, leading to some exciting landings, and my first tarmac landing (nearly lost my balance on that one). It made me pretty frustrated until I figured out I needed to start my flare just before tail deflection, not all the way to the stops -- because the new brake lines (PD specs) were much more loose than my old brake lines. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites OSOK 0 #23 January 6, 2006 QuoteQuoteExcuse me if in wrong... but are you suggesting that it's better to land moving sideways as you land crossing than having an asymetrical flare to make sure you touch down going forward only? Yes. The most important thing on any landing (HP wing over swoops/carves excluded), into the wind, downwind, crosswind, is that you have a level canopy over your head. Trying to turn into the wind has caused countless unnecessary injuries in our sport. Go skim the incident reports and see how many low turn injury incidents you can find where it states "jumper was attempting to turn into the wind too low". Trust me, there are alot in there. You may not always stand up a cross wind landing, but with a level canopy over your head, chances are you will walk away from it with nothing more than a couple of grass stains. Ok, I think you got me wrong. I did not mean a turn as in "damn, I'm crosswind I need to face upwind to land right." I meant the kind of asymetrical flare where you're about to touch down and maybe didn't line it up 100% right and the canopy starts to fly a bit sideways, you compenstate to keep it level. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
OSOK 0 #23 January 6, 2006 QuoteQuoteExcuse me if in wrong... but are you suggesting that it's better to land moving sideways as you land crossing than having an asymetrical flare to make sure you touch down going forward only? Yes. The most important thing on any landing (HP wing over swoops/carves excluded), into the wind, downwind, crosswind, is that you have a level canopy over your head. Trying to turn into the wind has caused countless unnecessary injuries in our sport. Go skim the incident reports and see how many low turn injury incidents you can find where it states "jumper was attempting to turn into the wind too low". Trust me, there are alot in there. You may not always stand up a cross wind landing, but with a level canopy over your head, chances are you will walk away from it with nothing more than a couple of grass stains. Ok, I think you got me wrong. I did not mean a turn as in "damn, I'm crosswind I need to face upwind to land right." I meant the kind of asymetrical flare where you're about to touch down and maybe didn't line it up 100% right and the canopy starts to fly a bit sideways, you compenstate to keep it level. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
