feuergnom 29 #1 January 12, 2006 In the thread covering the drowing of a TI and his pax in hawai tombuch raisend an interesting that's worth further discussion Quote Quote I was wondering how much emphasis is placed on toggles and steering in the training of the student? I know not all people have the same awareness on their first jump but i can't help but think that if she had realized he was incapacitated and through her training used the toggles as an EP to steer closer to shore that the outcome might have been different. I don't know about the specific training offered to this student, or at this drop zone, nor can I say that any specific training would have changed the outcome. However, bmcd308 brings up a good point. Sometimes students can help a situation if they have some training. In fact, FAR 105.45(a)(2)(i) requires that the student be provided with a briefing to include "... the procedures to be used in case of an emergency with the aircraft or after exiting the aircraft, while preparing to exit and exiting the aircraft, freefall, operating the parachute after freefall, landing approach, and landing." See http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/...tle14/14cfrv2_02.tpl Of course there are many drop zones that treat the student as just a passenger, and provide no safety training at all. Offering the student a bit more training is good for the student, the instructor, the drop zone, and the skydiving industry. This incident suggests that we should all revisit the way we treat and train our tandem students. (emphasis mine) disclaimer: this is meant to be controversial, but still: play the ball not the player, ok? this fits well in the attitude of some TI's that they are "hauling meat" or even worse "hauling ass" and that every pax is just another pain in the ass trying to kill them (as displayed quite frequently in these forums). it also goes hand in hand with the attitude of some TI's that "no training is required cause i'm the parachutist in command and I will do anything that's necessary and the pax has no business touching or doing anything. to add even more fuel to the fire: if you really invest time to train your passengers and treat them as students i more than once got the frowning looks of seasoned TI's like "Hey, you're just wasting your time dude" Quote This incident suggests that we should all revisit the way we treat and train our tandem students. so the above statement from tombuch is _IMVHO_ more tha true feel free to flame or comment in any way as a TI in training i more than welcome your thoughts & inputsThe universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle dudeist skydiver # 666 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,588 #2 January 12, 2006 One point (I'm no TI) is that in this case, the student might not have spoken much English; she was apparently a Japanese tourist. That would make a lot of things a lot tougher. That said, I remembered that incident as soon as talk began about the incapacitation. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Liemberg 0 #3 January 12, 2006 QuoteI was wondering how much emphasis is placed on toggles and steering in the training of the student? IMO? None, whatsoever other than "pull right - turn right, pull left - turn left." There is no way of knowing what happened there In Real Life from behind my computer screen but in order to steer, if nobody hands them to you - you first have to reach the toggles! When a tandempassenger of mine steers, he/she usually starts after I have presented the toggles in front of his/her face. In MY breefing this is emphasized as "I'll show the toggles in front of your face. You grab the lower portion. This is the only thing YOU get in your hands, during the jump. WAIT therefore untill I do so and don't start reaching behind your back..." Why? It has happened in the past that a student grabbed behind her, probably looking/feeling/ searching for the toggles. She found and pulled the cutaway handle, killing both herself and her tandemmaster... Though what tombuch said sounds good in theory, and I do like to show a few things while under canopy to the passenger, it doesn't go any further than 'monkey training' - they wouldn't know where the toggles were on opening to begin with and IMHO couldn't reach them even if their life depended on it. Their best chance is a good dose of old fashioned luck and a docile canopy left at half brakes. Just picture a passenger still firmly attached at the hips, trying to reach BOTH toggles and steering the pair out of harms way... NOT! Recently, when a videoman had a midair with the tandempair on opening and the tandemmaster was killed in the collision, after the landing the passenger freed himself from the harness and managed to reach a nearby farm for help... QuoteThis incident suggests that we should all revisit the way we treat and train our tandem students. This incident suggest we should revisit the way we deem tandemmasters 'physically fit' to do their task... (You may also want to notice that the press 'sort of frowned upon' the age of the tandemmaster in question (69!), while the DZO told everybody about the excellent shape this senior citizen was in...) "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Elisha 1 #4 January 12, 2006 (warning: I obviously don't know what I'm talking about since I'm not a TM) From what I remember about my first two tandems, the place (SkyDance in Davis) gave us the opportunity to pull ourselves and let us steer after opening. We were given our own Alti as well on our wrist and about a 500' or so window (6K to 5500) to pull - if not the TM did it. If we told them we wanted to try and "save our lives", we did practice touches before boarding and during freefall. My point is, even if the local DZ does NOT want the passenger trying to do this, how can an extra few minutes of training hurt? What about showing a picture of what a good canopy looks like and one with the risers as well to show where the brakes are stowed? Besides pull right -> turn right and pull left -> turn left, mention both = brakes/flare and the concept of braked turns? I realize this could be information overload, but you're just giving an extra few minutes overview. I wrote this in a few sentences, so it shouldn't take that long. Again, it is only for a just-in-case scenario, not YOU REALLY NEED TO REMEMBER THIS like for AFF-I. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Liemberg 0 #5 January 12, 2006 QuoteWhat about showing a picture of what a good canopy looks like and one with the risers as well to show where the brakes are stowed? 1. Knowing what a good canopy looks like isn't going to help you in any way if you are not able to cut away and pull the reserve. When you jump with me, I sure as hell am not going to tell you. 2. Knowing where and how the brakes are stowed wont do you any good either - if your not an urang utang. Your arms are too short... "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tombuch 0 #6 January 12, 2006 Can a student actually get the toggles from the riser on a tandem jump? It probably depends on the type of tandem system and how the two harnesses have been positioned. I've been able to do it from the front maybe once, but it's a super tough reach even for an experienced tandem instructor. IMO, suggesting that the student reach back and get the toggles from the riser isn't practical, or as some have suggested, not even safe because they may grab the cutaway handle. With that said, I think they should be taught to steer when handed the toggles. In the case discussed here, we don't know what condition the TI was in. He may have had a stroke or heart attack, and it may have been sudden onset. It's also possible that there was a gradual disability. I know I've been super sick or tired on a few tandems and was very happy I had taught the student to steer. Once the parachute is open it takes only a few seconds to do a controllability check and hand the toggles off to the student. Likewise, I like them to know where the main ripcord is and have access to it. It's great for teaching, but there is always a very slight chance that the student just might need to save the instructors life. It can happen. So, I like teaching the student mostly because it improves retention, but as an aside, it makes the jump safer for the instructor too. .Tom Buchanan Instructor Emeritus Comm Pilot MSEL,G Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Liemberg 0 #7 January 13, 2006 Quotesuper sick or tired on a few tandems and was very happy I had taught the student to steer. Q: What is worse than a heavy passenger? A: A heavy passenger without arm muscles... In case of 'super sick' as a rule I don't jump - my business terms say I can do that. Should anything in that nature happen anyway MY PLAN is to give the student the toggles and point him towards land... When thinking about this whole situation and what one could do about it, I was reminded of a fellow jumper who passed away recently. He was jogging with his brother, said he didn't feel well, sat down and died. AFAIK he passed a recent medical test for parachute jumping. He was in his fourties... Quotethere is always a very slight chance that the student just might need to save the instructors life. I have to weigh that against an island that is only 3 miles wide, with a DZ only a mile from the surf. Since there are cases where a student opening at altitude could get us in the water AND I don't want to change my routine all the time, I would never do that on a first tandem. Most of them are first tandems... "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NelKel 0 #8 January 13, 2006 requires that the student be provided with a briefing to include "... the procedures to be used in case of an emergency with the aircraft or after exiting the aircraft, while preparing to exit and exiting the aircraft, freefall, operating the parachute after freefall, landing approach, and landing.<<<<<<< i more than welcome your thoughts & inputs<<<<< ALSO This stuff was expermintal back in the day. Lets all remember manufactures were denied for years, before the FAA addopted it, and to which they now have a word in its regulation. Students are to be given a visually accesible altimeter, and trained how to use it. They must be shown the location, and operation of the drouge release handle. They must be orientated to the airport are among a few that were left out by the above. Because of this the USPA was able to set up Tandem progression for Cat. A and B. Although many progressive drop zones were doing this before regulation guidlines. There are many DZ that do not follow this policy, they do not want to OVERTRAIN/confuse students. They do not want to take a chance that a tandem passenger will break/lose and expensive altimiter. There are Tandem Instructors that do not want students to interact with them in drouge fall, such as pulling. As to wiether is should be enforced, well there are alot of rules that should be enforced. Like the only person who may pack a tandem main is...? Now how many times do you see that? Personaly I believe from what I have read so far is that MAX knew he was in trouble, probably a stroke, and having probably already handed the student her toggles, was trying to instruct her to make the Landing zone. That why I believe witnesses states there was an attempt to turn left but was sluggish, or not enough. That sounds like a student as pilot. The language barrier could have also contributed, you can't take your translater with you for the jump._________________________________________ Someone dies, someone says how stupid, someone says it was avoidable, someone says how to avoid it, someone calls them an idiot, someone proposes rule chan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
feuergnom 29 #9 January 13, 2006 Note: I'm not a TI - yet, i'll start my training in the next few weeks. a littel background to bring things into perspective: i've been working for/with tandem instructors for 4 years now. doing their paperwork, handing out waivers, dealing with customers, briefing passengers one-on-one. so i guess this gives me some insight on how a small tandem business can be run. i_know_that my little corner of the world works different than other DZ's or tandem businesses and my thought may not apply to any of you experienced guys. BUT - and this but is really big - i know how much difference a good, thorough briefing/training proir to jumping makes. i know it takes definitely more time actually talking to people rather than showing the some kind of briefing video. not to speak of training an exit and freefall-position in real life. as a sidenote: i know also that much of a "sucessfull" tandem ride is based on how well the communication between TI and pax runs. but the more the passengers know, the better they can communicate with the one's the trust with their life tombuch said: Quote I think they should be taught to steer when handed the toggles. […] Likewise, I like them to know where the main ripcord is and have access to it. It's great for teaching, but there is always a very slight chance that the student just might need to save the instructors life. It can happen. amen to that! as for NelKel: QuoteThere are Tandem Instructors that do not want students to interact with them in drouge fall, such as pulling. There are TI's out there, that do not want passengers to anything but to shut up and behave like a piece of dead cargo that is to be delivered from 12k+ to groundlevel Elisha said: Quotehow can an extra few minutes of training hurt? i know it doesn't hurt, it only takes time and a real person to do it. read: money. apparantly this thought doesn't fit into profit oriented ways of dealing with tandems maybe my feelings/thoughts will change once i've made a couple of hundred tandem-jumps. but right now i think that the more and the better you train your passengers/students the safer, the more relaxed and joyfull the ride will be - for you and your studentThe universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle dudeist skydiver # 666 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Liemberg 0 #10 January 13, 2006 Quotethe more and the better you train your passengers/students the safer, the more relaxed and joyfull the ride will be - for you and your student I'm not so sure about 'more', but with 'better' you are definitely on the right track... And though at times 'dead cargo' seems appealing, if you are not into interacting with other human beings and therefore not good at communicating what works and what doesn't, 'interesting times' are guaranteed when you start out doing tandems. Breaking news: They are alive! They are going to feel you breathe...they observe you as you observe them. Rumor has it that some of them are actually able to think... My life as TI is a whole lot easier if the student/passenger trusts me. I'm well aware that there is no particular reason why I should get this trust 'instinctivly' - I have to work on every jump with every student/passenger to get it... "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
feuergnom 29 #11 January 13, 2006 QuoteAnd though at times 'dead cargo' seems appealing, if you are not into interacting with other human beings and therefore not good at communicating what works and what doesn't, 'interesting times' are guaranteed when you start out doing tandems. so - who decides who is going to be a TI and who should stick to RW, freefly or whatever in the first place? The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle dudeist skydiver # 666 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GravityGirl 0 #12 January 13, 2006 You know what I think would be really neat? Maybe we could do a briefing on the Waiver Video that is similar to an Airplane briefing. Everyone know that there is a floatation device under your seat cushion or for land flights that your seat cushion can actually be used as flotation device. THis is how your seatbelt works. Should we expereince a sudden loss of pressure.... Maybe some simple briefings like toggle location, chest strap location, etc. The student will likely not even think of it.... unless things actually happen. Just a thought. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Peace and Blue Skies! Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Liemberg 0 #13 January 13, 2006 Quoteso - who decides who is going to be a TI and who should stick to RW, freefly or whatever in the first place? Tandem Instructor Examiner? Due to the limitations of the medium, I might have been less clear than is desirable. What I was meaning to say is that though you should reach a technical level where you don't need the cooperation of your student/passenger to fulfill your prime task (open at least one parachute and make a safe landing) and therefore it 'might as well be dead meat' or 'non-cooperative meat', it is lot more fun if your passenger in freefall isn't 'freezing' or 'fighting you all the way to deployment-altitude'. Like others, I'll take 'freezing' anytime over 'fighting'... To get your student/passenger to cooperate, people skills come in handy... AFAIK 'interesting times' is a Chinese euphemism for times of war, turmoil and disorder... @ GravityGirl: can I get a copy of the video? "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tombuch 0 #14 January 13, 2006 QuoteYou know what I think would be really neat? Maybe we could do a briefing on the Waiver Video that is similar to an Airplane briefing. ...THis is how your seatbelt works. Should we expereince a sudden loss of pressure.... The seatbelt briefing is already required for every airplane flight, including skydiving flights with tandems. See 91.107. http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?&c=ecfr&tpl=/ecfrbrowse/Title14/14tab_02.tpl It requires that the pilot ensure that each passenger is briefed on how to fasten and unfasten their seat belt, when to fasten and unfasten the seatbelt, and that each passenger actually use their seatbelt for taxi, take off and landing. The pilot can delegate this responsibility, as is done on commercial flights, but the pilot remains responsible for ensuring each passenger is briefed and uses the seatbelts. Often we ignore this requirement in the skydiving world. The seatbelt briefing IS a requirement. It's easy, but as with so many other things, it requires that the tandem instructor actually talk to the student. .Tom Buchanan Instructor Emeritus Comm Pilot MSEL,G Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Elisha 1 #15 January 13, 2006 Ummmm, tom? She was using the airline seatbelt as an example of something we could do for tandems but for toggles, chest strap, etc.....and I'm glad Bonnie agrees with me! Yes, we the seatbelt thing is done for skydivers aslready. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tombuch 0 #16 January 13, 2006 QuoteUmmmm, tom? She was using the airline seatbelt as an example of something we could do for tandems but for toggles, chest strap, etc.....and I'm glad Bonnie agrees with me! Yes, we the seatbelt thing is done for skydivers aslready. Not everyplace, and not by all instructors. I've seen far too many tandem instructors slip the belt on and off through the back of the student harness without even telling the student. I've even watched a few clip the student harness to the instructor harness and then use one belt for the instructor and none for the student. That approach is not legal or safe. I know she was using the seatbelt thing as an example of how things are already done, and that toggles etc. could be handled the same way. I just wanted to point out that not every DZ is even mentioning seatbelts, and it's something we should take seriously. .Tom Buchanan Instructor Emeritus Comm Pilot MSEL,G Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mfrese 0 #18 January 14, 2006 As for your core questions, and some of the others I see in this thread, I can only offer my opinions, so here ya go: - The DZ I generally do tandems at now makes every effort to provide a thorough, detailed briefing covering everything from aircraft emergencies to how we land the canopy. Will I ever include (or ask to be included) a briefing on equipment, such as how to grab and flare toggles without my assistance? Not a chance. To understand why, do a tandem as a student, it'll be pretty self-evident that, no matter how good your briefing is, you just don't have the range of motion to reach anything that will help you. Toggles? If you've got arms like an NBA player, I suppose you can reach the steering toggles, but what about flare toggles? How detailed do we need to make that briefing, anyway? - The "meat" issue. Unless you have the unbridled love of humanity evidenced by Mother Teresa and some breeds of dog, you're going to have students that make you feel that way. I'm fairly inexperienced as a TM with about 850 or so, but I'd say I really enjoyed about 800 of them, had another 25 that were OK, and had 25 where I simply had to grit my teeth and do my best Mother Teresa impersonation. You can spend an hour on your briefing, sometimes an entire FJC, take extra care on the ground, on the plane, talk them through the exit and the skydive 15 times...and they'll still go fetal and start windmilling their arms as soon as you exit. I hope you still have a positive attitude about being a TI when you encounter those people...but believe me some days it's an effort. - In the US, the FAA has the final enforcement power over tandem skydiving, so, in fact (at least the way I interpret the FARs), I am the parachutist in command, and I'm responsible for making sure they get to the ground undamaged. There is no requirement that they learn anything...but I try to make sure they learn everything they want to learn given the time I have them with me. MikeDoctor I ain't gonna die, Just write me an alibi! ---- Lemmy/Slash Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Elisha 1 #19 January 14, 2006 I understand...but again, think airline briefing video like GravityGirl said. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
