Speculation and Incidents

[Ron 10]

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If you have any facts or examples specific to this dz regarding it's culture which may have something to do with the losses they have endured, let's hear them. Otherwise it sounds like speculation to me.

Asking a question is not speculation. Its asking a question. BIG difference.

Again I will ask...Can you explain why they have more accidents than many larger DZ's?

Thats a question.

Speculation would be, "Maybe that the instructors are all part time drug dealers and hookers had something to do with the VD epidemic in Thailand".

There is a difference, but its much more fun to call someone a jerk rather than answer questions. Its even more fun to assume the question was something other than the question asked.

Not once did I ever say that "skyride" had shit to do with anything.

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Do you ask about dz culture for every incident? It seems like a fair question, but it isn't always asked. Why ask for this one, and not others? Solely the bad run they've had, or does something else pique your interest about that, for this dz? (Maybe it should be asked for each incident ... hence the form I and others have asked for to capture similar data points across for all incidents.)

I ask whenever something seems strange. And in this case it seems to be more than a DZ that size would have.

That seems strange so I asked the question. I have asked that same question several times in the past about different DZ's.

I think it is a valid question for many accidents. It can help find out things like:

1. Maybe a swoop pond INCREASES accidents since you have people come there and try to go big.

2. Maybe winter layoffs bring more accidents.

3. Maybe visiting jumpers from overseas pull lower.

4. Maybe viviting jumpers come to a DZ and act different since they are "Away" and will not suffer if they get grounded. (we had a guy that would come to Zhills and pull low. The last load of every day he would really hum it. His friends said he never did that at home. When I aksed him why he did it here...His answer was that he didn't care if he got grounded, he was leaving Monday anyway."

Each of these, could be found only if you ask the question about the culture of the DZ.

1. If the locals are not pounding in, only visitors then its not the culture of the DZ, but a change might be needed in the brief visiting jumpers get.

2. Winter layoffs might mean that the folks need a visit to the hanging harness.

3 + 4. Maybe visiting jumpers sould be told ahead of time that its not cool and they will spend their skydiving vaction on the ground.

It is a natural reaction to defend the "home" and defend the dead/injured....So I don't get all pissed when people attack me.

But it is a valid question.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[LawnDart21 0]

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Sorry had to go for something whitty.

Still waiting for something witty..........

--
My other ride is a RESERVE.

[CSpenceFLY 1]

Do you want me to explain it?


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[davelepka 4]

THANK GOD we don't have to answer to the NTSB or the FAA in the wake of a skydiving incident.

That said, what do you think those organizations do with an accident investigation? My guess would be they look at the circumstances, SPECULATE as to the probable causes, then investigate the facts and evidence to come to a conclusion. Even then, those conclusions are often times just educated speculation.

So why do they bother to investgate at all? Because the best way to prevent future accidents is to understand the accidents from the past, and implement training, procedures, or equipment changes that will prevent repeats of the same situation.

With the absence of the formal investigations, all we have is the discussion of other jumpers, using the inforamtion provided to help us gain some useful knowledge from a bad situation.

Do these discussion sometimes get off track? Yes they do. Is the new track sometimes also helpful and informative, albeit about a different, related situation? Absolutely, and that information is every bit as valuable to a jumper who had not previously considered it, despite it's lack of direct relevance to the incident being discussed.

This is all we have to work with. For the record, before DZ.com, or the internet was popular, all we had to work with was word of mouth, and Parachutist, neither of which presented a very clear or in depth picture of the situation. Having open discussions, in a global forum, has done far more good than harm. Far more.

Maybe your issue is that there isn't enough thread splitting in the incidents forum?

As far as the fear of speculation causing some incidents to go unreported, that seems a little paranoid to me. Considering the popularity of DZ.com, and the small size of the community, you would littlerly have to have every jumper on the field agree to a pact of absolute silence regarding an icident to keep it from the public eye. Even then, if the media gets involved, enough jumpers monitor the news wires to catch even the smallest blurb. If all that fails, we've seen family memebers log on looking for answers as to what happend to their family members.

[LawnDart21 0]

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Maybe your issue is that there isn't enough thread splitting in the incidents forum?

Maybe that's the answer.

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As far as the fear of speculation causing some incidents to go unreported, that seems a little paranoid to me.

I'm not paranoid, they really are out to get me.....

In all seriousness, I've read threads over the last few years where it has been openly stated incidents are withheld from this board due to the rampant speculation that is always generated.

Your right, if someone goes in, inevitably it will find its way here due to the media and our small community, but there are also injurious incidents that occur that may really offer educational value to others that are not posted on this board. I would wager that alot if not most people on this board know of atleast one major injurious incident that has occured during their time in the sport that did not get posted on this board).

Thats all I'm really saying, I mean lets say there are 5 hook turn injuries all on the same type canopy, but only 2 incidents get reported. 2 incidents on the same canopy = coincidence. But if all 5 got posted, now we have uncovered a potential canopy issue. We all benefit.

--
My other ride is a RESERVE.

[Guest 1010]

good points Ron, and info like that would be worthwhile for many incidents/dz not just this one, ie I'd like to see it more "normalized" for lack of a better term.

And for Dave, yes, I'd like heavier moderation incl splitting threads and more deleted posts. Yes the internet here is useful, but often it is _not_ better than word of mouth and real bonfire discussions. In real life it could go like this: New guy: "I heard he was always drunk." Old (respected) guy: "No, he hadn't drank in years." ends that discussion, but here it would just _start_ the discussion about a problem the guy beat years ago.

You can have it good, fast, or cheap: pick two.

[riggerrob 643]

And for Dave, yes, I'd like heavier moderation including splitting threads and more deleted posts.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Agreed!

Can I tell Sangiro how to run his website?
Hee hee!

Perhaps we need two or three threads for each accident.

The first thread would be for "just the facts maam," limited to first-hand witnesses and people directly connected with the investigation. This first thread would be "read only" for most people and new information would only be posted after being reviewed by moderators.

The second thread would be reserved for condolences.

The third thread would be the most entertaining with all its random speculation, mud-slinging, etc.

[davelepka 4]

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And for Dave, yes, I'd like heavier moderation incl splitting threads and more deleted posts. Yes the internet here is useful, but often it is _not_ better than word of mouth and real bonfire discussions

For the record, I'm not saying that is the answer, but that maybe thats the answer the OP was looking for. Persoanlly, I'm not sure there's a 'problem'. Maybe things could be better, but I know for sure the current system is helpful. If the 'new' system would be as helpful or not, is up in the air, and for that reason, I'd say just leave it be.

I disagree that the word of mouth or actual bonfire talk is better than what we have now. We have access to the insight of a huge number of very smart and experienced people who might never have an occasion to visit your local bonfire.

Furthermore, the most qualified jumper in your area may not be present at the bonfire. What you have is the senior jumper at the bonfire taking the lead. I've walked up to the bonfire to find a guy with 200 jumps talking out his ass to a group of 100 jump wonders and tandem students. It's the blind leading the blind, and up to pure chance if it gets corrected, or just runs it's course.

The home page says something like "The single best source for skydiving information", and for jumpers off student status, this is pretty close to the truth. You'll never find a better cross section of jumpers and experience levels anywhere. It may seem liek overkill the way advice gets corrected down to the nth degree, but in the end it does go alng way to ensure the accuracy of the advice.

[LawnDart21 0]

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We have access to the insight of a huge number of very smart and experienced people who might never have an occasion to visit your local bonfire.

Don't forget we also have access to a number of total dumb asses on here as well........lol

Anyways, I have received some very supportive PMs from people (Thank you) regarding this issue and even most of the counter points here in the thread were valid and thought provoking.

I never set out to say "I AM RIGHT, IT MUST BE DONE MY WAY", I just wanted to offer a moment of pause for people to consider the impact of what they post, and I think (hopefully) I was able to do that. If nothing changes (my initail thought) so be it, I think this exchange was worth it for me and hopefully for a few others.

Blue skies, Tom

--
My other ride is a RESERVE.

[JeepDiver 0]

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Do you not have anything beneficial to contribute to this thread? Or are you resigned to just making witty commentary for the sake of your own amusement?

Unless I have factual information, I generally have very little to say. I understand the point of your thread. I often do not have the time to reply to most threads or I am unwilling to make a hasty conclusion about a subject I am unable to answer/understand intelligently. I was trying to be witty. Glad you approve. There is nothing worse than trying to be witty and failing badly at it.

[packerboy 3]

I've been called a sarcastic asshole for it But I try to keep that at work.

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In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson