OATSF14 0 #1 January 22, 2006 Should be cleaning the house. That is my regular Sunday morning choir. But not today. I am waiting for the playoffs to begin. I will do no work today. I pulled my old log books and took a look. It is amazing to me how clear some of those jumps remain today. A friend and I took a drive one day in his MGB and drove by a dropzone. We stopped, watched and decided to try it. The small town was named: Slaughtersville. The spot was the middle of the cemetary. First jump was Aug 13, 1977. From the log book: Jump 1: “35’ T-10/ 24’ 4 line release. Static line. Temp 100 degrees/0-5 wind. 3,000 ft static line”. Jumpmaster notes were fine. My notes: “I am not religious but I think I saw God. Slammed into the ground. Gotta get better at this or there will be much pain” Jump 3: Static line. First jump on a PC. My notes: “Wow! I want one of these. Nice landing and the thing turns fast.” Jump 19: My Notes: “Had to exit early. Plane out of gas. The bulb came on. I’m hooked”. Jump 119: First cut away. Strato-Cloud. My notes: “That sucked. At least I know I can do it”. Jump 320: Pilot stalled the plane on climbout. (182). “My notes: That sucked. Pilot let airspeed bleed on climb out. Nice dive though”. (this jump changed my way of flying. I became much more professional whenever I flew the plane) Jump 488: Second malfunction. Notes: “High speed malfunction. Mis-routed pilot chute. Wrapped around leg strap. We always gear checked each other but not today. We were mad at one of the jumpers so we never said a word to each other. Opened below the tower. (height 620’)” (I remember waiving at 2000 and throwing the pilot chute. Nothing happened. I looked over my shoulder and there it was......just following me down. I looked back at my altimeter and noticed the house getting really big really fast. I immediately pulled my reserve. Line stretch, release bakes, flair. This jump made me more altitude alert.) On and on and on.....The point is, I still remember very clearly these specific jumps and the people I jumped with. One of my JMs sold marijuana to the students at OU. (Oklahoma University) One of my JMs was a cop who chased him all week. One of my JMs was a Lawyer who continually offered his services to the dealer if he ever got caught by the cop. We had Army Rangers, Air Force Pilots, college kids and it was just a fun place to go. I laid off jumping for about 9 years. Got back into it recently. The people are the same. You have the young guys chasing the young girls. You have the young girls who just want to skydive. You have the jumpers who want to change how the place is operated. Over all, it is still as I remember it, a great place to be. Skydiving is the only sub-culture I have belonged to that shares the camaraderie of my old squadron days. In many ways it exceeds it. The only thing I have noticed is that many people nowadays jump and leave the DZ. That is too bad. Hanging around after the jumping, drinking beer, lying, and just sharing the day helps builds that camaraderie. With all the differences of opinion on this website it is still a fact that we all share something in common. For some ungodly reason we jump out of airplanes. That statement in itself in itself is amazing to me. What a rush. Gotta go, pre-game. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CSpenceFLY 1 #2 January 22, 2006 Great post.I also wish more people would hang out after jumping.You amost have to plan some huge party and advertise for a month to get people to stay. . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #3 January 22, 2006 QuoteGreat post,I also wish more people would hang out after jumping, almost have to plan some huge party and advertise for a month to get people to stay. . Quote I often have the same thought...For me anyway, I learned as much or ever MORE from the nightly bull sessions listening to the 'old guys' ! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Loonix 0 #4 January 22, 2006 It's nice to see someone with thousands of jumps saying these things.. Too many on dz.com is saying that skydiving is after all just another hobby. Well, not to me, it is way more. On our little dropzone at voss, norway, I dare say we have that cameraderie (spelling?!) you talk about. Perhaps because going back to the city takes at least 2 hours, so most arrives on friday or saturday and jump, party like hell, and those who are more or less up to it jumps on sunday as well. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mdrejhon 8 #5 January 23, 2006 Excellent skydiving history -- this is worthy of the History Forum. (I always enjoy reading these -- including airtwardo's very interesting stories. We newbies are quite spoiled with today's equipment) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Spenck 0 #6 January 23, 2006 Nice post -------------------------------------------------------------------------- "The day you were born you were born free, that is your privilege" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ltdiver 3 #7 January 23, 2006 QuoteQuoteGreat post,I also wish more people would hang out after jumping, almost have to plan some huge party and advertise for a month to get people to stay. Quote I often have the same thought...For me anyway, I learned as much or ever MORE from the nightly bull sessions listening to the 'old guys' ! This was one of the first lessons my JM taught me. I -used- to disappear right after jumping was over. He pulled me aside and informed me that I'd learn even more after hours, listening to the stories around the campfire if I'd just hang around. He was very right. Wherever you are, stay and hang around awhile. You think skydiving's fun? Wait until the sun goes down! ltdiver Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites steve1 5 #8 January 23, 2006 Glad you're back. There's way too many people who leave the sport never to return. And they are really missing out on a whole lot of fun. I agree the people haven't changed that much. Most jumpers are still a wild and crazy bunch. There are a lot of older jumpers than there once were though. Someone who was 35 was really really old way back when. Now I see jumpers about twice that old still jumping out of planes. The ram-air canopy allowed that to happen. When I returned to the sport I was also amazed at what people were doing in the air. I recall watching some jumpers dirt diving a jump prior and thinking, there's no way they could possibly do all that, but yet they were. Back in the early 70's a 25 way round was a world record...Now that's nothing. Isn't it great to be back!.....Steve1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Airman1270 0 #9 January 28, 2006 QuoteGreat post.I also wish more people would hang out after jumping.You amost have to plan some huge party and advertise for a month to get people to stay. _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Yes, this is the one aspect of the sport that has eluded me over the years, for a variety of reasons. In the old days, it was that 3-4+ hour drive home. In recent years, it's the wife & kids, dinner, baths, etc. that prevent me from hanging around and getting to know people better. Another major factor is the hysterical drunk driving laws passed in the last several years, coupled with increasing use of police roadblocks, that can snag a moderate drinker who dared enjoy three beers in two hours with his friends. This behavior poses no threat to public safety and would not have been noticed just 15 years ago, but today can easily land you in jail overnight even if the charges are soon dropped. Cheers, Jon S. DAMM - Drunks Against Mad Mothers Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 4 #10 January 28, 2006 Quotethat can snag a moderate drinker who dared enjoy three beers in two hours with his friends. This behavior poses no threat to public safety Do you really believe this? SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andrelr 0 #11 January 30, 2006 Not a hobby at all. More a way of life: a collection of larger-than-life freinds, great memories and creaky knees... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Airman1270 0 #12 January 30, 2006 QuoteQuotethat can snag a moderate drinker who dared enjoy three beers in two hours with his friends. This behavior poses no threat to public safety Do you really believe this? _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Yes. Throughout my adult life (graduated high school in 1976, drinking age 18) we were occasionally confronted by various sources (including p.s.a.'s on radio stations geared to young people) with the accepted alcohol breakdown stats which indicated that an "average" size male could consume up to three drinks in an hour without exceeding the legal limit. "Average" was somewhere between 170 - 200lbs. "Legal" at the time was .10 b.a.c. "Legal" was also understood to be safe. We did not have an epidemic of horrible accidents caused by people who honored this standard. The really bad stuff, the stuff that motivated MADD to get organized, etc., was caused by people who got smashed way beyond the legal limit, then compounded their behavior with reckless driving. The point is that I, at over 200lbs., can drink two or even three beers in an hour without losing control and posing a threat to you. Since the law has been redefined, making formerly legal behavior illegal, I can now get into a lot of trouble for two beers, despite the fact that I'm not drunk, nor am I driving in a dangerous manner. This makes it unlikely that I will hang around the DZ over a beer with my friends if I know I have to drive home that evening. Of course, accidents can happen for a variety of reasons, even to people who are not drinking. Equally obvious, one of these accidents can occur after one has had a beer. (After all, having that beer does not eliminate the possibility of one of these non-alcohol related accidents from occurring.) The trouble is that all attention will be focused on that beer; It will be considered by many the reason the accident happened in the first place. If you drink a beer, then are struck by a guy who suddenly pulled out of his driveway with his headlights off, you will be blamed even though the accident was clearly not your fault. Just pray you get me on your jury. Cheers, Jon S. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ripcord4 0 #13 January 30, 2006 The point is that I, at over 200lbs., can drink two or even three beers in an hour without losing control and posing a threat to you. __________________________________________________ This shows that you are not even aware you are impaired. One drink will slow your reflexes and reaction time, and that poses a threat to other drivers. A driver that is aware he is under the influence may pay strict attention to driving, even though he should not be on the road. It is the driver that is UNAWARE or does not feel he is impaired is the greater danger. You wouldn't jump after consuming 2 or 3 beers in the hour before your load, would you? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 4 #14 January 30, 2006 QuoteThe point is that I, at over 200lbs., can drink two or even three beers in an hour without losing control and posing a threat to you. I spent over 30 years picking up after people who felt that they were in control and not a threat to anyone. Its bull shit. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Airman1270 0 #15 February 1, 2006 Quote The point is that I, at over 200lbs., can drink two or even three beers in an hour without losing control and posing a threat to you. __________________________________________________ This shows that you are not even aware you are impaired. One drink will slow your reflexes and reaction time, and that poses a threat to other drivers. A driver that is aware he is under the influence may pay strict attention to driving, even though he should not be on the road. It is the driver that is UNAWARE or does not feel he is impaired is the greater danger. You wouldn't jump after consuming 2 or 3 beers in the hour before your load, would you? _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Again, my point is that the standard has been redefined. We did not have an epidemic of people causing tragic accidents after drinking a few beers, unless, of course, they were also driving in a hazardous manner to begin with. Obviously, a careless driver doesn't become any less dangerous after having a beer, but I don't believe it's necessarily the alcohol that would be the dominating factor in any subsequent incident. At the same time, I don't believe a careful driver necessarily becomes a threat after drinking a few beers. With a 30 year driving history and a clean record I think I can speak with some credibility on the subject. I have rarely jumped after ANY beer, and would not do so according the the conditions you posed in your question. I did, once, make a jump after drinking three beers in three hours. I did an easy small-way way, and kept the workload light with an emphasis on opening a bit higher than normal. In keeping with the purpose of this thread, I offer this discussion as a possible explanation as to why there might be fewer jumpers hanging around over a beer or two after sunset. The current political climate has many people believing that even a small amount of alcohol will turn a careful driver into an out-of-control threat to public safety. Many of the people who believe this work as cops and are willing to arrest you at a roadblock even though you're not impaired and that the case would stand little chance of ending in a conviction. Cheers, Jon S. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 4 #16 February 2, 2006 In 2004, 39% of all traffic fatalities were found to be alcohol related. That’s 16,600 people dead because someone felt they could drink and drive. The affects of alcohol are like the affects of hypoxia, hard for the one affected to notice the difference. It has been proven in test after test that one drink will reduce your ability to make decisions quickly or at all for that matter. It is hard to believe there are still people so cavalier about getting in a 2 or 3 thousand pound vehicle after having “a couple of beers” and point it at others. You are betting you can pull it off. The problem is you are betting with other peoples lives. Sparky http://www.alcoholalert.com/drunk-driving-statistics.htmlMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Airman1270 0 #17 February 2, 2006 QuoteIn 2004, 39% of all traffic fatalities were found to be alcohol related. That’s 16,600 people dead because someone felt they could drink and drive. The affects of alcohol are like the affects of hypoxia, hard for the one affected to notice the difference. It has been proven in test after test that one drink will reduce your ability to make decisions quickly or at all for that matter. It is hard to believe there are still people so cavalier about getting in a 2 or 3 thousand pound vehicle after having “a couple of beers” and point it at others. You are betting you can pull it off. The problem is you are betting with other peoples lives. _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ In the incidents you cite, how much alcohol was consumed? And does the evidence show that it was the alcohol that "caused" the accident? If the drivers involved were legally drunk, then this argument is irrelevant to this discussion. A drunk guy might be sitting at a red light and be rear-ended by a sober guy. You can claim all you want that the accident was "alcohol-related" but it is clearly the sober guy who caused the wreck. The alcohol was irrelevant in this case. (Of course, this is little comfort to the drunk guy who's in a heap of trouble regardless...) If you are claiming that even a small amount of alcohol will impair a driver to the point of becoming a threat to public safety, than you are suggesting that ANY alcohol consumption prior to driving should be illegal. My bitch about this subject is that it's possible to obey the law and still be arrested & prosecuted. If you're right, this means the only jumpers who should enjoy that sunset beer with their friends are those who are camping overnight. (Trying to keep this vaguely within the context of the "logbook" subject.) Try as we might, this is sliding beyond the bounds of "General Skydiving Discussions." Should we continue at the Bonfire? Thanks again, Jon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 4 #18 February 2, 2006 Draw and conclusions you want. It is obvious you feel you are able to drink and drive.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Airman1270 0 #19 February 3, 2006 QuoteDraw and conclusions you want. It is obvious you feel you are able to drink and drive. _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ I am able to drink a little and drive safely. I do not claim that I can exceed the legal limit without becoming impaired. Do you believe that it is possible for an adult to drive safely after consuming a small amount of alcohol? Or do you think driving after ANY amount poses a threat? We are left with a situation in which people can obey the law and still be hassled by the cops. I'd like to hear your thoughts on this. Jon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 4 #20 February 3, 2006 I think you know my thoughts on this.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
mdrejhon 8 #5 January 23, 2006 Excellent skydiving history -- this is worthy of the History Forum. (I always enjoy reading these -- including airtwardo's very interesting stories. We newbies are quite spoiled with today's equipment) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Spenck 0 #6 January 23, 2006 Nice post -------------------------------------------------------------------------- "The day you were born you were born free, that is your privilege" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ltdiver 3 #7 January 23, 2006 QuoteQuoteGreat post,I also wish more people would hang out after jumping, almost have to plan some huge party and advertise for a month to get people to stay. Quote I often have the same thought...For me anyway, I learned as much or ever MORE from the nightly bull sessions listening to the 'old guys' ! This was one of the first lessons my JM taught me. I -used- to disappear right after jumping was over. He pulled me aside and informed me that I'd learn even more after hours, listening to the stories around the campfire if I'd just hang around. He was very right. Wherever you are, stay and hang around awhile. You think skydiving's fun? Wait until the sun goes down! ltdiver Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve1 5 #8 January 23, 2006 Glad you're back. There's way too many people who leave the sport never to return. And they are really missing out on a whole lot of fun. I agree the people haven't changed that much. Most jumpers are still a wild and crazy bunch. There are a lot of older jumpers than there once were though. Someone who was 35 was really really old way back when. Now I see jumpers about twice that old still jumping out of planes. The ram-air canopy allowed that to happen. When I returned to the sport I was also amazed at what people were doing in the air. I recall watching some jumpers dirt diving a jump prior and thinking, there's no way they could possibly do all that, but yet they were. Back in the early 70's a 25 way round was a world record...Now that's nothing. Isn't it great to be back!.....Steve1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Airman1270 0 #9 January 28, 2006 QuoteGreat post.I also wish more people would hang out after jumping.You amost have to plan some huge party and advertise for a month to get people to stay. _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Yes, this is the one aspect of the sport that has eluded me over the years, for a variety of reasons. In the old days, it was that 3-4+ hour drive home. In recent years, it's the wife & kids, dinner, baths, etc. that prevent me from hanging around and getting to know people better. Another major factor is the hysterical drunk driving laws passed in the last several years, coupled with increasing use of police roadblocks, that can snag a moderate drinker who dared enjoy three beers in two hours with his friends. This behavior poses no threat to public safety and would not have been noticed just 15 years ago, but today can easily land you in jail overnight even if the charges are soon dropped. Cheers, Jon S. DAMM - Drunks Against Mad Mothers Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 4 #10 January 28, 2006 Quotethat can snag a moderate drinker who dared enjoy three beers in two hours with his friends. This behavior poses no threat to public safety Do you really believe this? SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andrelr 0 #11 January 30, 2006 Not a hobby at all. More a way of life: a collection of larger-than-life freinds, great memories and creaky knees... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Airman1270 0 #12 January 30, 2006 QuoteQuotethat can snag a moderate drinker who dared enjoy three beers in two hours with his friends. This behavior poses no threat to public safety Do you really believe this? _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Yes. Throughout my adult life (graduated high school in 1976, drinking age 18) we were occasionally confronted by various sources (including p.s.a.'s on radio stations geared to young people) with the accepted alcohol breakdown stats which indicated that an "average" size male could consume up to three drinks in an hour without exceeding the legal limit. "Average" was somewhere between 170 - 200lbs. "Legal" at the time was .10 b.a.c. "Legal" was also understood to be safe. We did not have an epidemic of horrible accidents caused by people who honored this standard. The really bad stuff, the stuff that motivated MADD to get organized, etc., was caused by people who got smashed way beyond the legal limit, then compounded their behavior with reckless driving. The point is that I, at over 200lbs., can drink two or even three beers in an hour without losing control and posing a threat to you. Since the law has been redefined, making formerly legal behavior illegal, I can now get into a lot of trouble for two beers, despite the fact that I'm not drunk, nor am I driving in a dangerous manner. This makes it unlikely that I will hang around the DZ over a beer with my friends if I know I have to drive home that evening. Of course, accidents can happen for a variety of reasons, even to people who are not drinking. Equally obvious, one of these accidents can occur after one has had a beer. (After all, having that beer does not eliminate the possibility of one of these non-alcohol related accidents from occurring.) The trouble is that all attention will be focused on that beer; It will be considered by many the reason the accident happened in the first place. If you drink a beer, then are struck by a guy who suddenly pulled out of his driveway with his headlights off, you will be blamed even though the accident was clearly not your fault. Just pray you get me on your jury. Cheers, Jon S. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ripcord4 0 #13 January 30, 2006 The point is that I, at over 200lbs., can drink two or even three beers in an hour without losing control and posing a threat to you. __________________________________________________ This shows that you are not even aware you are impaired. One drink will slow your reflexes and reaction time, and that poses a threat to other drivers. A driver that is aware he is under the influence may pay strict attention to driving, even though he should not be on the road. It is the driver that is UNAWARE or does not feel he is impaired is the greater danger. You wouldn't jump after consuming 2 or 3 beers in the hour before your load, would you? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 4 #14 January 30, 2006 QuoteThe point is that I, at over 200lbs., can drink two or even three beers in an hour without losing control and posing a threat to you. I spent over 30 years picking up after people who felt that they were in control and not a threat to anyone. Its bull shit. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Airman1270 0 #15 February 1, 2006 Quote The point is that I, at over 200lbs., can drink two or even three beers in an hour without losing control and posing a threat to you. __________________________________________________ This shows that you are not even aware you are impaired. One drink will slow your reflexes and reaction time, and that poses a threat to other drivers. A driver that is aware he is under the influence may pay strict attention to driving, even though he should not be on the road. It is the driver that is UNAWARE or does not feel he is impaired is the greater danger. You wouldn't jump after consuming 2 or 3 beers in the hour before your load, would you? _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Again, my point is that the standard has been redefined. We did not have an epidemic of people causing tragic accidents after drinking a few beers, unless, of course, they were also driving in a hazardous manner to begin with. Obviously, a careless driver doesn't become any less dangerous after having a beer, but I don't believe it's necessarily the alcohol that would be the dominating factor in any subsequent incident. At the same time, I don't believe a careful driver necessarily becomes a threat after drinking a few beers. With a 30 year driving history and a clean record I think I can speak with some credibility on the subject. I have rarely jumped after ANY beer, and would not do so according the the conditions you posed in your question. I did, once, make a jump after drinking three beers in three hours. I did an easy small-way way, and kept the workload light with an emphasis on opening a bit higher than normal. In keeping with the purpose of this thread, I offer this discussion as a possible explanation as to why there might be fewer jumpers hanging around over a beer or two after sunset. The current political climate has many people believing that even a small amount of alcohol will turn a careful driver into an out-of-control threat to public safety. Many of the people who believe this work as cops and are willing to arrest you at a roadblock even though you're not impaired and that the case would stand little chance of ending in a conviction. Cheers, Jon S. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 4 #16 February 2, 2006 In 2004, 39% of all traffic fatalities were found to be alcohol related. That’s 16,600 people dead because someone felt they could drink and drive. The affects of alcohol are like the affects of hypoxia, hard for the one affected to notice the difference. It has been proven in test after test that one drink will reduce your ability to make decisions quickly or at all for that matter. It is hard to believe there are still people so cavalier about getting in a 2 or 3 thousand pound vehicle after having “a couple of beers” and point it at others. You are betting you can pull it off. The problem is you are betting with other peoples lives. Sparky http://www.alcoholalert.com/drunk-driving-statistics.htmlMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Airman1270 0 #17 February 2, 2006 QuoteIn 2004, 39% of all traffic fatalities were found to be alcohol related. That’s 16,600 people dead because someone felt they could drink and drive. The affects of alcohol are like the affects of hypoxia, hard for the one affected to notice the difference. It has been proven in test after test that one drink will reduce your ability to make decisions quickly or at all for that matter. It is hard to believe there are still people so cavalier about getting in a 2 or 3 thousand pound vehicle after having “a couple of beers” and point it at others. You are betting you can pull it off. The problem is you are betting with other peoples lives. _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ In the incidents you cite, how much alcohol was consumed? And does the evidence show that it was the alcohol that "caused" the accident? If the drivers involved were legally drunk, then this argument is irrelevant to this discussion. A drunk guy might be sitting at a red light and be rear-ended by a sober guy. You can claim all you want that the accident was "alcohol-related" but it is clearly the sober guy who caused the wreck. The alcohol was irrelevant in this case. (Of course, this is little comfort to the drunk guy who's in a heap of trouble regardless...) If you are claiming that even a small amount of alcohol will impair a driver to the point of becoming a threat to public safety, than you are suggesting that ANY alcohol consumption prior to driving should be illegal. My bitch about this subject is that it's possible to obey the law and still be arrested & prosecuted. If you're right, this means the only jumpers who should enjoy that sunset beer with their friends are those who are camping overnight. (Trying to keep this vaguely within the context of the "logbook" subject.) Try as we might, this is sliding beyond the bounds of "General Skydiving Discussions." Should we continue at the Bonfire? Thanks again, Jon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 4 #18 February 2, 2006 Draw and conclusions you want. It is obvious you feel you are able to drink and drive.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Airman1270 0 #19 February 3, 2006 QuoteDraw and conclusions you want. It is obvious you feel you are able to drink and drive. _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ I am able to drink a little and drive safely. I do not claim that I can exceed the legal limit without becoming impaired. Do you believe that it is possible for an adult to drive safely after consuming a small amount of alcohol? Or do you think driving after ANY amount poses a threat? We are left with a situation in which people can obey the law and still be hassled by the cops. I'd like to hear your thoughts on this. Jon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 4 #20 February 3, 2006 I think you know my thoughts on this.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
mjosparky 4 #10 January 28, 2006 Quotethat can snag a moderate drinker who dared enjoy three beers in two hours with his friends. This behavior poses no threat to public safety Do you really believe this? SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrelr 0 #11 January 30, 2006 Not a hobby at all. More a way of life: a collection of larger-than-life freinds, great memories and creaky knees... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Airman1270 0 #12 January 30, 2006 QuoteQuotethat can snag a moderate drinker who dared enjoy three beers in two hours with his friends. This behavior poses no threat to public safety Do you really believe this? _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Yes. Throughout my adult life (graduated high school in 1976, drinking age 18) we were occasionally confronted by various sources (including p.s.a.'s on radio stations geared to young people) with the accepted alcohol breakdown stats which indicated that an "average" size male could consume up to three drinks in an hour without exceeding the legal limit. "Average" was somewhere between 170 - 200lbs. "Legal" at the time was .10 b.a.c. "Legal" was also understood to be safe. We did not have an epidemic of horrible accidents caused by people who honored this standard. The really bad stuff, the stuff that motivated MADD to get organized, etc., was caused by people who got smashed way beyond the legal limit, then compounded their behavior with reckless driving. The point is that I, at over 200lbs., can drink two or even three beers in an hour without losing control and posing a threat to you. Since the law has been redefined, making formerly legal behavior illegal, I can now get into a lot of trouble for two beers, despite the fact that I'm not drunk, nor am I driving in a dangerous manner. This makes it unlikely that I will hang around the DZ over a beer with my friends if I know I have to drive home that evening. Of course, accidents can happen for a variety of reasons, even to people who are not drinking. Equally obvious, one of these accidents can occur after one has had a beer. (After all, having that beer does not eliminate the possibility of one of these non-alcohol related accidents from occurring.) The trouble is that all attention will be focused on that beer; It will be considered by many the reason the accident happened in the first place. If you drink a beer, then are struck by a guy who suddenly pulled out of his driveway with his headlights off, you will be blamed even though the accident was clearly not your fault. Just pray you get me on your jury. Cheers, Jon S. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ripcord4 0 #13 January 30, 2006 The point is that I, at over 200lbs., can drink two or even three beers in an hour without losing control and posing a threat to you. __________________________________________________ This shows that you are not even aware you are impaired. One drink will slow your reflexes and reaction time, and that poses a threat to other drivers. A driver that is aware he is under the influence may pay strict attention to driving, even though he should not be on the road. It is the driver that is UNAWARE or does not feel he is impaired is the greater danger. You wouldn't jump after consuming 2 or 3 beers in the hour before your load, would you? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 4 #14 January 30, 2006 QuoteThe point is that I, at over 200lbs., can drink two or even three beers in an hour without losing control and posing a threat to you. I spent over 30 years picking up after people who felt that they were in control and not a threat to anyone. Its bull shit. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Airman1270 0 #15 February 1, 2006 Quote The point is that I, at over 200lbs., can drink two or even three beers in an hour without losing control and posing a threat to you. __________________________________________________ This shows that you are not even aware you are impaired. One drink will slow your reflexes and reaction time, and that poses a threat to other drivers. A driver that is aware he is under the influence may pay strict attention to driving, even though he should not be on the road. It is the driver that is UNAWARE or does not feel he is impaired is the greater danger. You wouldn't jump after consuming 2 or 3 beers in the hour before your load, would you? _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Again, my point is that the standard has been redefined. We did not have an epidemic of people causing tragic accidents after drinking a few beers, unless, of course, they were also driving in a hazardous manner to begin with. Obviously, a careless driver doesn't become any less dangerous after having a beer, but I don't believe it's necessarily the alcohol that would be the dominating factor in any subsequent incident. At the same time, I don't believe a careful driver necessarily becomes a threat after drinking a few beers. With a 30 year driving history and a clean record I think I can speak with some credibility on the subject. I have rarely jumped after ANY beer, and would not do so according the the conditions you posed in your question. I did, once, make a jump after drinking three beers in three hours. I did an easy small-way way, and kept the workload light with an emphasis on opening a bit higher than normal. In keeping with the purpose of this thread, I offer this discussion as a possible explanation as to why there might be fewer jumpers hanging around over a beer or two after sunset. The current political climate has many people believing that even a small amount of alcohol will turn a careful driver into an out-of-control threat to public safety. Many of the people who believe this work as cops and are willing to arrest you at a roadblock even though you're not impaired and that the case would stand little chance of ending in a conviction. Cheers, Jon S. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 4 #16 February 2, 2006 In 2004, 39% of all traffic fatalities were found to be alcohol related. That’s 16,600 people dead because someone felt they could drink and drive. The affects of alcohol are like the affects of hypoxia, hard for the one affected to notice the difference. It has been proven in test after test that one drink will reduce your ability to make decisions quickly or at all for that matter. It is hard to believe there are still people so cavalier about getting in a 2 or 3 thousand pound vehicle after having “a couple of beers” and point it at others. You are betting you can pull it off. The problem is you are betting with other peoples lives. Sparky http://www.alcoholalert.com/drunk-driving-statistics.htmlMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Airman1270 0 #17 February 2, 2006 QuoteIn 2004, 39% of all traffic fatalities were found to be alcohol related. That’s 16,600 people dead because someone felt they could drink and drive. The affects of alcohol are like the affects of hypoxia, hard for the one affected to notice the difference. It has been proven in test after test that one drink will reduce your ability to make decisions quickly or at all for that matter. It is hard to believe there are still people so cavalier about getting in a 2 or 3 thousand pound vehicle after having “a couple of beers” and point it at others. You are betting you can pull it off. The problem is you are betting with other peoples lives. _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ In the incidents you cite, how much alcohol was consumed? And does the evidence show that it was the alcohol that "caused" the accident? If the drivers involved were legally drunk, then this argument is irrelevant to this discussion. A drunk guy might be sitting at a red light and be rear-ended by a sober guy. You can claim all you want that the accident was "alcohol-related" but it is clearly the sober guy who caused the wreck. The alcohol was irrelevant in this case. (Of course, this is little comfort to the drunk guy who's in a heap of trouble regardless...) If you are claiming that even a small amount of alcohol will impair a driver to the point of becoming a threat to public safety, than you are suggesting that ANY alcohol consumption prior to driving should be illegal. My bitch about this subject is that it's possible to obey the law and still be arrested & prosecuted. If you're right, this means the only jumpers who should enjoy that sunset beer with their friends are those who are camping overnight. (Trying to keep this vaguely within the context of the "logbook" subject.) Try as we might, this is sliding beyond the bounds of "General Skydiving Discussions." Should we continue at the Bonfire? Thanks again, Jon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 4 #18 February 2, 2006 Draw and conclusions you want. It is obvious you feel you are able to drink and drive.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Airman1270 0 #19 February 3, 2006 QuoteDraw and conclusions you want. It is obvious you feel you are able to drink and drive. _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ I am able to drink a little and drive safely. I do not claim that I can exceed the legal limit without becoming impaired. Do you believe that it is possible for an adult to drive safely after consuming a small amount of alcohol? Or do you think driving after ANY amount poses a threat? We are left with a situation in which people can obey the law and still be hassled by the cops. I'd like to hear your thoughts on this. Jon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 4 #20 February 3, 2006 I think you know my thoughts on this.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
ripcord4 0 #13 January 30, 2006 The point is that I, at over 200lbs., can drink two or even three beers in an hour without losing control and posing a threat to you. __________________________________________________ This shows that you are not even aware you are impaired. One drink will slow your reflexes and reaction time, and that poses a threat to other drivers. A driver that is aware he is under the influence may pay strict attention to driving, even though he should not be on the road. It is the driver that is UNAWARE or does not feel he is impaired is the greater danger. You wouldn't jump after consuming 2 or 3 beers in the hour before your load, would you? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #14 January 30, 2006 QuoteThe point is that I, at over 200lbs., can drink two or even three beers in an hour without losing control and posing a threat to you. I spent over 30 years picking up after people who felt that they were in control and not a threat to anyone. Its bull shit. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Airman1270 0 #15 February 1, 2006 Quote The point is that I, at over 200lbs., can drink two or even three beers in an hour without losing control and posing a threat to you. __________________________________________________ This shows that you are not even aware you are impaired. One drink will slow your reflexes and reaction time, and that poses a threat to other drivers. A driver that is aware he is under the influence may pay strict attention to driving, even though he should not be on the road. It is the driver that is UNAWARE or does not feel he is impaired is the greater danger. You wouldn't jump after consuming 2 or 3 beers in the hour before your load, would you? _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Again, my point is that the standard has been redefined. We did not have an epidemic of people causing tragic accidents after drinking a few beers, unless, of course, they were also driving in a hazardous manner to begin with. Obviously, a careless driver doesn't become any less dangerous after having a beer, but I don't believe it's necessarily the alcohol that would be the dominating factor in any subsequent incident. At the same time, I don't believe a careful driver necessarily becomes a threat after drinking a few beers. With a 30 year driving history and a clean record I think I can speak with some credibility on the subject. I have rarely jumped after ANY beer, and would not do so according the the conditions you posed in your question. I did, once, make a jump after drinking three beers in three hours. I did an easy small-way way, and kept the workload light with an emphasis on opening a bit higher than normal. In keeping with the purpose of this thread, I offer this discussion as a possible explanation as to why there might be fewer jumpers hanging around over a beer or two after sunset. The current political climate has many people believing that even a small amount of alcohol will turn a careful driver into an out-of-control threat to public safety. Many of the people who believe this work as cops and are willing to arrest you at a roadblock even though you're not impaired and that the case would stand little chance of ending in a conviction. Cheers, Jon S. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #16 February 2, 2006 In 2004, 39% of all traffic fatalities were found to be alcohol related. That’s 16,600 people dead because someone felt they could drink and drive. The affects of alcohol are like the affects of hypoxia, hard for the one affected to notice the difference. It has been proven in test after test that one drink will reduce your ability to make decisions quickly or at all for that matter. It is hard to believe there are still people so cavalier about getting in a 2 or 3 thousand pound vehicle after having “a couple of beers” and point it at others. You are betting you can pull it off. The problem is you are betting with other peoples lives. Sparky http://www.alcoholalert.com/drunk-driving-statistics.htmlMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Airman1270 0 #17 February 2, 2006 QuoteIn 2004, 39% of all traffic fatalities were found to be alcohol related. That’s 16,600 people dead because someone felt they could drink and drive. The affects of alcohol are like the affects of hypoxia, hard for the one affected to notice the difference. It has been proven in test after test that one drink will reduce your ability to make decisions quickly or at all for that matter. It is hard to believe there are still people so cavalier about getting in a 2 or 3 thousand pound vehicle after having “a couple of beers” and point it at others. You are betting you can pull it off. The problem is you are betting with other peoples lives. _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ In the incidents you cite, how much alcohol was consumed? And does the evidence show that it was the alcohol that "caused" the accident? If the drivers involved were legally drunk, then this argument is irrelevant to this discussion. A drunk guy might be sitting at a red light and be rear-ended by a sober guy. You can claim all you want that the accident was "alcohol-related" but it is clearly the sober guy who caused the wreck. The alcohol was irrelevant in this case. (Of course, this is little comfort to the drunk guy who's in a heap of trouble regardless...) If you are claiming that even a small amount of alcohol will impair a driver to the point of becoming a threat to public safety, than you are suggesting that ANY alcohol consumption prior to driving should be illegal. My bitch about this subject is that it's possible to obey the law and still be arrested & prosecuted. If you're right, this means the only jumpers who should enjoy that sunset beer with their friends are those who are camping overnight. (Trying to keep this vaguely within the context of the "logbook" subject.) Try as we might, this is sliding beyond the bounds of "General Skydiving Discussions." Should we continue at the Bonfire? Thanks again, Jon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 4 #18 February 2, 2006 Draw and conclusions you want. It is obvious you feel you are able to drink and drive.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Airman1270 0 #19 February 3, 2006 QuoteDraw and conclusions you want. It is obvious you feel you are able to drink and drive. _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ I am able to drink a little and drive safely. I do not claim that I can exceed the legal limit without becoming impaired. Do you believe that it is possible for an adult to drive safely after consuming a small amount of alcohol? Or do you think driving after ANY amount poses a threat? We are left with a situation in which people can obey the law and still be hassled by the cops. I'd like to hear your thoughts on this. Jon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 4 #20 February 3, 2006 I think you know my thoughts on this.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
mjosparky 4 #18 February 2, 2006 Draw and conclusions you want. It is obvious you feel you are able to drink and drive.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Airman1270 0 #19 February 3, 2006 QuoteDraw and conclusions you want. It is obvious you feel you are able to drink and drive. _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ I am able to drink a little and drive safely. I do not claim that I can exceed the legal limit without becoming impaired. Do you believe that it is possible for an adult to drive safely after consuming a small amount of alcohol? Or do you think driving after ANY amount poses a threat? We are left with a situation in which people can obey the law and still be hassled by the cops. I'd like to hear your thoughts on this. Jon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #20 February 3, 2006 I think you know my thoughts on this.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
