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Trae

Ethics v's secrets v's safety.

By Trae, in General Skydiving Discussions

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Trae    1

Trae
Where do ethics/secrets/safety and even basic human decency get compromised in our sport?

There appears to be a strong tendency within our little skydiving world to minimise some of the true reality of incidents....... fatal and otherwise.
Blaming the injured /deceased or implying it was their fault often seems to be the first option.

At what point are basic human rights and dignities compromised by the requirement to not bring our sport/business into disrepute?
As the sport has transformed into more of a business for some do the financial imperatives sometimes over-ride the need for open sharing of safety information and incident reports?

Is it possible for ethical sporting requirements to cross over into irresponsible and even negligent keeping of secrets.?

A possible example of this is safety information and incident reports that are distributed for 'members only ' use.

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jlmiracle    7

jlmiracle
Quote

There appears to be a strong tendency within our little skydiving world to minimise some of the true reality of incidents....... fatal and otherwise.
Blaming the injured /deceased or implying it was their fault often seems to be the first option.



In most cases, their actions caused their own injury or death.

Quote

Is it possible for ethical sporting requirements to cross over into irresponsible and even negligent keeping of secrets.?

A possible example of this is safety information and incident reports that are distributed for 'members only ' use.



huh? What exactly does "members only" mean? Are you talking USPA members, members at a particular dz?

J
Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

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lawrocket    3

lawrocket
Quote

There appears to be a strong tendency within our little skydiving world to minimise some of the true reality of incidents....... fatal and otherwise.



Actually, I've noticed the opposite.

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Blaming the injured /deceased or implying it was their fault often seems to be the first option.



It'll account for the vast majority of incidents by this first step. Would you rather we start by attempting to affix blame on George W. Bush?

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At what point are basic human rights and dignities compromised by the requirement to not bring our sport/business into disrepute?



There is no requirement that I know of. It turns out that craters bring disrepute to our sport all on their own. IT is pretty obvious to anybody that the sport is dangerous. But if someone bounces because of stupid shit, you should say,"He did some stupid shit" and detail why it was stupid.

A welder just cooked himself here in Fresno yesterday. He was welding a fuel tank that had not ben purged. I feel for the guy's family, but damn, "that was stupid" is a pretty honest thing to say.

Lose altitude awareness without an AAD and crater? Yeah, you'd have thought he would have seen the planet coming at him. Undignified thought? No. THe worst part may be pointing out the obvious. If someone's feelings are hurt by some criticism, the "tough noogies" doctrine applies.

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Is it possible for ethical sporting requirements to cross over into irresponsible and even negligent keeping of secrets.?



OF course it is. I wouldn't call it "negligent." Maybe irresponsible. Too often, though, this keeping of secrets is to maintain that "dignity" you so value. Dignity means jack and shit when answers are needed.

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A possible example of this is safety information and incident reports that are distributed for 'members only ' use.



I'd rather that than open distribution to Joe Whuffo. THat's why most professions and academic have peer review and discipline boards that are closed to the public. Is it to keep a secret? No. It's to solve a problem without interference of people who have no idea what the hell is going on, but make some assumptions that can be pretty harmful.

Note that the information is SHARED between people who are best at using it and distributing the lessons to all. NEgligence? Hell no. I say bravo!


My wife is hotter than your wife.

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Eiley    0

Eiley
Quote

Where do ethics/secrets/safety and even basic human decency get compromised in our sport?

There appears to be a strong tendency within our little skydiving world to minimise some of the true reality of incidents....... fatal and otherwise.
Blaming the injured /deceased or implying it was their fault often seems to be the first option.

At what point are basic human rights and dignities compromised by the requirement to not bring our sport/business into disrepute?
As the sport has transformed into more of a business for some do the financial imperatives sometimes over-ride the need for open sharing of safety information and incident reports?

Is it possible for ethical sporting requirements to cross over into irresponsible and even negligent keeping of secrets.?

A possible example of this is safety information and incident reports that are distributed for 'members only ' use.



I wish you would provide some concrete examples or facts when you make these sorts of statements.

I've seen nothing here in Oz to substantiate your claim. The vast majority of incidents are caused by errors of the victim.

One incident I know of personally that was apparently 'buried' by the media was a pretty darn clear case of suicide (which the media has a policy of not reporting). Nothing sinister in that.

The incident reports you speak of are pretty easy to come by, unless there are double 'real' incident reports I don't know of kept under lock and key by the sekrit cabal?

Could you perhaps be a little more specific about your concerns?

nothing to see here

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happythoughts    0

happythoughts
Quote

Could you perhaps be a little more specific about your concerns?



This is another chapter of the "evil DZO" conspiracy. :S They are like the Illuminati except with airplanes.

Usually the threads start out with unfounded references to billions and billions of skydivers dying weekly. Read any of them.

No actual facts. Sensationalism. Spurious defamation. It's like the National Inquirer without the ethics.

This was my favorite. The DZOs were blamed for not telling adults that it was hot. :S

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There doesn't appear to be any checks or balances in place with this. Perhaps the need to turn over the $$$$ during the brief summer hols is also having its affect.

Used to be responsible DZ operators would call a halt if it was noticed people were getting TOO HOT.

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diverdriver    7

diverdriver
Fact: Over 85% of all fatal plane crashes (not just skydiving) are caused by human error.

Fact: Over 90% of all fatalities in skydiving are caused by human error.


So why is it so weird for you to hear that the skydiver did something that got himself/herself killed/injured? We are the weakest link in this activity.
Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

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Trae    1

Trae
in reply to "It appears there is not much in his life he is happy with"
.................

Personal woffle (B& CS )aside ,I find the subject matter at issue interesting and hope to attract others interested in discussing such matters.
If this is a taboo subject then perhaps that says a lot more than my little so called 'rants.'

The 85 - 90% of incidents due to personal error also points to the remaining 10-15% being for other reasons.

It is within this 'other' that there exists the possibility of other people being responsible for the victims death or injury.eg reserve packing errors.

To pretend that mistakes don't happen is :S
To attempt to cover them up is criminal.
To believe that such things don't happen is naive.
To keep such info hidden is ????????j

Perhaps unethical perhaps something else.
Does any-one actually operate under a code of ethics?

"Shake the bush & see what falls out."
"Don't let it land onya"
"Look there's spiders near the top catching flies."
"It's all right sonny ..them crows"ll get 'em when their nice an' fat."

:)

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happythoughts    0

happythoughts
Quote

If this is a taboo subject then perhaps that says a lot more than my little so called 'rants.'



"taboo" isn't the word that fits. "Fiction" is the word that I would use.

There is no "secret conspiracy". You don't come off as having some "secret knowledge" at all.

Conspiracy theorists are, at least, well intentioned. You repeatedly make wild, smearing allegations about the ethics of others without providing any actual information.

If anything you wrote sounded credible, people would listen.

The diatribe has grown tiring.

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goose491    0

goose491
I am indeed "interested" in this subject matter, and will accept your "invitation" to discuss.

"Blaming the injured /deceased or implying it was their fault often seems to be the first option."

Firstly, I did not reading this. And immediately thought of a quote that I have read on these boards -as I'm sure you have as well:

"Often, when a skydiver dies, there is a desire on the part of his friends to "not speak ill of the dead" - to not suggest or imply that his death was due to a mistake he made. However, 99% of the serious injuries and fatalities in this sport are due to mistakes, and one reason the sport is gradually getting safer is that people learn from other's mistakes _before_ they make them themselves. This forum is intended for just that sort of learning."
-billvon

The truth is that 85-90% of injuries and fatalities in this sport occur due to an error on the part of the skydiver in question. You present that this leaves 10-15% of 'em, the result of someone else's boner move. I would add that gear malfunction should be included here but it is not. What's more important though, is that you seem to convey a belief that we do not consider, or that we try to mask the fact, that our actions in the sky have an affect on the safety of our peers. I find that unfair and from my experience, completely untrue.

Now here's a grey area. I present you the example of a two way tandems where the drogues come into contact. :o Did you see the video? I bet you didn't. ;) This might fall into a category you are describing. Videos, incident reports that are passed around for "members only". Well, let's disect it. It is not being ignored. It is being used as a learning tool by those who stand to learn from it. I trust that the incident is "discussed" at great lengths. But existence of that video could cause the DZ it's tandem ticket. Hmmm... what to do?



My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

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Trae    1

Trae
in reply to "I am indeed "interested" in this subject matter, and will accept your "invitation" to discuss.
..............................

Cheers and a bit of applause.:ph34r:
Perhaps some overly sensitive viewers have something to hide ;):P:S

As for the tandem incident you describe ..no I haven't seen it but it does sound like it's in the realm of this topic. I've got a few incidents on tape (one or two with myself in them ) that also qualify. Perhaps I'm restricted by the code of ethics from sharing these. (refrain refrain )
Myself & others learnt from them and all concerned had to wear a fair bit of ribbing as well. ..luckily no tears. Thing is it wasn't hidden. Quite the opposite.

What I've seen more recently is people wiping over their mistakes . pretending like they didn't happen. not sharing them so others could learn...altering the facts a bit.
It's as if some less experienced people need to trick others into believing that they are better than they actually are. Several close calls on tracking dives where inexperienced people sort of nearly killed their mates and then the vid goes missing or didn't work.:(

Sure I could be more specific but once again the code & perhaps even the law (it's not libel if it's true )
sort of retrains sorry refrains me.

I'm more interested in getting the weird hide mistake behaviour a bit more out in the open...ie secrets. not conspiratorial or ???:S like some appear too eager to imply/state ..... simply small time hide the mistake behaviour from incompetents and inexperienced types. Sometimes the incompetents might be running the shop.

Filthy crap when this is related to fatalities or serious injuries . eg dumping a reserve to cover a body when the main or nothing would've done just as well............& yes this does happen & quite a bit over time.
Point the finger? ....I'd prefer to talk about it and perhaps even come up with some ways of recognising such behaviour and exposing it as dysfunctional.

This could improve on that 10 -15% just a bit.

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mjosparky    4

mjosparky
Quote

It is within this 'other' that there exists the possibility of other people being responsible for the victims death or injury.eg reserve packing errors.




Do you know of any injuries or deaths caused by rigging errors or mistakes made by instructors? If so you should be willing to share with us or you are part of the secrecy conspiracy you keep refereeing to.

Since you have been at it for over 20 years, what part of skydiving do you like.[:/]

Sparky
My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

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Trae    1

Trae
in reply to "Do you know of any injuries or deaths caused by rigging errors or mistakes made by instructors? If so you should be willing to share with us or you are part of the secrecy conspiracy you keep refereeing to.

Since you have been at it for over 20 years, what part of skydiving do you like. "
.......................

I like the pretty white clouds OK? Secret conspiracy????:S
You want more personal ? ...PM. or :P

back to the subject
From reading the previous code of ethics a bit closer it seems to me that there are a few cross-over points.

No 3 states . Act honestly , fairly and properly in dealings with students , other parachutists and with the general public.

no 7 Refrain from intentionally injuring the professional reputation of any other member , parachuting organisation or the Federation.

no9 "Encourage and assist others to develop good attitudes , skills and knowledge relating to the sport."

Hypothetically (if you must) say I was privy to a bit of info about a murderously incompetent rigger ....,if I was to get fully with no3 then no 7 could get in the way a bit. And no 9 would take a back seat and stay baffled with BS.

For me no 4 is a given ... I've never told a lie :) ...... haven't had to.

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Trae    1

Trae
in reply to "I just read your profile and your occupation fits. "
....................

So tell me something I don't know.:P
As you appear to insist on being personal....
I suppose in your 30 years of skydiving you've never seen some-one try and cover up a mistake?:S or blame some-one else for their own deficiencies .??

Perhaps you could share something from your own experiences ...........perhaps not.

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darkwing    5

darkwing
I've been around for a while, and I am afraid I haven't seen any evidence to support your contentions. I have been close to several DZs and have never seen a hint of behavior to support your paranoid conspiracy asserrtions. Of course maybe you hang out with a group that regularly behaves like you suggest, but I haven't heard of them.

Blaming the deceased is the first option because it is overwhelmingly true.

Sorry you are so tortured about this.

-- Jeff
My Skydiving History

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stratostar    5

stratostar
you've never seen some-one try and cover up a mistake? or blame some-one else for their own deficiencies .??
(quote aimed at sparky)

Yes I have seen just as you have said.
Most of the hiding of the truth I have personally seen have been done by DZO's or instructors and DZO's hushing up a mistake.
But by far the most endangering and greedy cover up's I have seen have been by owner/operators.[:/]
Almost every one of the cover up's I have seen, the weekend fun jumper and even fulltime instructors wouldn't have a clue that it was happening, unless you know the law, FAR's and know something about aircraft maintaince and you TAKE THE TIME TO LOOK. :o
Most of these things take some looking around in order to see.
As far as somone going in, unless you are one of the first persons at the P.O.I . you will never know if anything was tampered with or covered up, only but a few scumbags in the sport would do this, but you never know what someone will do
if they feel they are at fault or could be at fault.
It's kind of like having a plane crash and it just so happends that the logbooks were in the plane and they burned up in the wreakage, were they really in the plane at impact or were they tossed in the burning wreakage after to try to hide the illegal maintaince?:o
That is one good reason to have the S&TA not be the DZO and the rigger and the A&P and the first on the P.O.I.
at least then the more people involved before the cops and feds get there the less chance of a cover up.:)
In this sport here in the good ol USA, if you tell the truth and speek out to USPA or the FED's then your a rat and get blacklisted and slamed by others as someone who is lier or disgruntled with a personal agenda to "get them", how many times have we seen that here, it don't seem to matter to many that maybe the person is telling the truth and saw what they saw, or that there is a paper trail to prove that it is true.
One good thing is that most the old schoolers who would do this shit are getting old and starting to die off.:P
So all of you who think that this shit don't happen or hasn't been done before just keep your head in the sand at least that way you won't see it coming at you.:o:S

short list of things I personally have seen done.>:(
1. flying with out carb heat installed on plane
2. using oil out of the waste oil can cuz out of fresh oil
3. flying with out a transponder or working radio
4. using a fake stc for mogas
5. flying jumpers without a pilot license or with a supended one
6. jumpship flying with a bent crank for a year (R-985)
7. fuel tank marked 100LL with pink shit coming out the other end
8. tandem reserves swapped out with the main.(thats now the old main in the reserve pack tray)
9. DZO repairing bent props by bending back into place.
10. false aircraft maintaince logbook entries

That is the short list:S

~
you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

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