new kc dz not opening?

[flynabeech 0]

You have a Not very Busy Airport and some people would like to utilize it. They just want to go flying (same as GA pilots) They just prefer to get out of the plane and Fly. Big Sky, Plenty of room for all of us.

I couldn't agree more...... it is a big sky and welcome to all. However, please do it in accordance with Federal, state and local regulation. Unfortunately it can't be done Harrisonville!!!

[Thanatos340 1]

OK.. Lets see.. 11 Years ago.. Some Totally different people did something that pissed you off.

These people (Both the Jumpers and the new Owners) are not the same ones that were there before. Just because one group pissed you off, Doesn’t mean you will have the same problems with a different group.

But I will warn you... I have heard that some Skydivers out there are Black... And a couple Jews even jump. Be careful they might show up at the Dropzone too. We couldn’t have that cause we all know them Blacks is just here to rob us and rape our white women!! And Lord help us if any of them Jews Show up!! Cause we all know that once you seen one you seen em all. They are all just alike!!

Are you truly that ignorant??
Just because one group pissed you off, You automatically assume the next group will too??

[bch7773 0]

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Are you people braindead?? Does falling from the sky kill brain cells??
The community does not want another skydiving experience in this town.

the community picked an interesting person to represent them on the forums. nothing like an anonymous insulting troll telling us what EVERYONE in this town wants and needs.

MB 3528, RB 1182

[beowulf 1]

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[Thanatos340 1]

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please do it in accordance with Federal, state and local regulation. Unfortunately it can't be done Harrisonville!!!

I dont have a dog in this race.. This will not effect me in anyway at all. I doubt I will ever get to KC to jump, But I truly hate to see this king of ignorance and unfounded prejudice.

I understand that the locals trying to find any way they can to stop this. They may end up successful in the end or it just may cost the local municipalities a lot in court costs if the Skydivers decide to stand up for YOUR rights. As a GA pilot should be concerned because they may decide to go after you next when some pilot pisses one of them off. Even if it was a pilot from 10 years ago.

And they can still open. Get some office space in town, Sell Jump tickets there... or Sell Stamps and get a free jump ticket with each stamp. Then have a separate entity That gives away Free Jumps to Stamp Collectors. Plane takes off from Federally Funded Airport. Jumpers Land on Private property. Not a Business.

I know of one DZ that had to do something similar until they could get a Zoning Variance.


The bottom line is why would a GA Pilot be so opposed to other General Aviation activities?? I just don’t get it.

[flynabeech 0]

I see you've dug down pretty deep to dispute the dicrimination dard....... nice work. One should be proud. It's no wonder the world is concious of such racism with statements like that. It doesn't appear anyone on the thread has reduced themselves to such demeaning statements besides yourself.

I do see alot of people getting worked about nothing.

.........As for this statement. The city of Harrisonville requested a 1,000,000 insurance policy for the operation. The policy can not be purchased for a 1 million dollar premium. The USPA president suggested Loyds of London...... they won't touch it.

In addition, the city of Independence suffered a 1 million dollar law suit initiated by the family of a fatal skydiver. The engine manufacture Teledyne Continental lost over 20 mil on the same suit. Please investigate the definition of "Nothing" and I'm confident such losses will not warrant such a meaningless statement.

[davelepka 4]

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1. This insurance requirement is manditory for all commercial tennants on the field has been and always will be! (Sorry no Chapter 16 violation)

The individual trying to open the DZ claims to have a first draft copy of a lease that does not include the insurance requirements in question.

If the $1M requiremtns was boilerplate city regulation, why would they have not included it in the first draft?

Additionally, I think that the facts regarding what a DZ operation constitutes have been 'spun' by those in opposition. I'd urge any of the city residents to visit one of the other skydiving centers in the area to see what actual daily operations entails. You'll find it to be quite different than it's being portrayed.

On top of it all is the source of the information against the DZ. It's the owners of the other skydiving centers drawing their business from the same metro area. For all the bad things they have to say abotu DZ operations, you have to ask, why then, they are in that very business themselves?

The obvious answer is that they are using whatever means possible to keep out competition for their customer base. Doesn't this fact at all give you cause to wonder about the validity of their claims? If you have any sense, it should.

Additonally, skydivers are speaking from experiecne regarding the operations of a DZ. The local opposition is speaking from a speculative postion, with some experience from another center open over a decade ago. To truley have an informed opinion on the subject, you would need to contact other city administratos in similar sized metro areas, where a DZ is on opeeration, and ask them about the cost/benefit factors their city has experienced in hosting a DZ. What sort of problems have occurred as a result of the DZ? What costs ahev the city incurred? Conversley, what benefits have the reaped in direct tax dollars, and indirect inceom a a result of increased traffic though their city.

Look, everyone is entitled to their viewpoint, but if you're going to make it public, you have to be preparred to ante up to the level of those you're debating with. So far you're position has mde several allegations about what could happen, but you have no actual instances to refernce, while the skydivers who insist that your concerns are unfounded, have a wide array of experienced to call on from DZ of varying sizes in cities of varyiing sizes.

We can show you where and how it does work, with names and locations. Show us where and how it doesn't work, and they you may have something.

[Thanatos340 1]

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see you've dug down pretty deep to dispute the dicrimination dard

Just trying to illustrate a point. McNasty said he doesn’t want the skydivers there because the group that was there 10 years ago pissed many people off.

The group that was there 10 years ago and this group are two totally different groups and should be regarded as such.

Just showing what this type of thinking leads to. Judge each person on their own merits, not what others similar to them in some way have done.

[mattjw916 2]

Ironically, the efforts of a select few people in your town to garner opposition to the dropzone serves as a rallying cry to skydivers around the country as evident in this thread.

Way to go!!!

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[flynabeech 0]

In addition, the city of Independence suffered a 1 million dollar law suit initiated by the family of a fatal skydiver. The engine manufacture, Teledyne Continental lost over 20 mil on the same suit. Please investigate the definition of "Nothing" and I'm confident such losses will not warrant such a meaningless statement.

I appreciate your insight but the aforementioned situation is exactly where it didn't work. The local community of Harrisonville and surrounding areas are well aware of the associated risk. The Independence accident and their family's didn't help your cause.

Please provide the insurance in order to protect from a repeat situation that occured over a decade ago and it might "fly". There's a reason we learn from history. Otherwise....... your right the previous operation was in place over 10 years ago and the requirements should have been enforced then. As a local tax payer I'm probably still paying for that suit.

In the meantime, your proposing a new risk. The local community has obviously spoken and they're not interested! Check the vote!

The truth is your proposing to drop people from an airplane 14,000 feet above the earth and can not secure an insurance policy to protect the city or the local residents. Just the facts folks......... not here, not now, not ever. We've been there and done that!

[davelepka 4]

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the city of Independence suffered a 1 million dollar law suit initiated by the family of a fatal skydiver. The engine manufacture, Teledyne Continental lost over 20 mil on the same suit.

What was the basis of the suit agaisnt Teledyne Continental? Was this a skydiving accident or a GZ accident.

Skydiving doesn't being unitl you leave the AC, up until that point, it's GA. I've witnessed sveral first jump students who refuse to jump once they get in the door. Not a single one of them can claim to have been skydiving.

If it was a GA accident, than you should watch that the toen doesn't get wind of their possible liability in the case of a GA accident from a flight originating from your local airport.

Seriously though, if we did an audit of each and every business operating within the city limits I;m sure we could find several business's whose indistries have seen crippling lawsuits brought against them, who don't have sufficient coverage, and cannot protect the city. What do we do about them?

My god, I can only imagine how many lawsuits have been brought against general contractors. What will the city do about that? Heavy equipment, cranes, and job sites left un-manned after hours pose significant risk to the populous. Better keep a lid on that.

I propose that this insurance issue has come about not out of concern for liability, but as an impossible obstacle to block the permits for the DZ. If this is the case, time will tell if this legal, and if not, look for a signicant reduction services provided for your AC. If the FAA gets the federal funding pulled, the same 'good old boys' in city hall who are your allies now will quickly become your enemy as the airport will be perpetually at the bottom of the list when the city is doling out funds. I would hazzard to guess that they no concept of the costs invloved in maintaining an airport, and how far they are from being able to meet those costs without federal assistance.

[mattjw916 2]

I _think_ this is the incident he is referring to: http://www.dropzone.com/news/SafetyBoardCitesProbable.shtml

No jumpers exited the plane, so it is a GA accident as I understand it.

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[davelepka 4]

I do applaud your bringing your viewpoint to light here, and your ability to make a sound argument, and maintain that argument without resorting to insults or off-color remarks.

Like I said before, the opposing viewpoints are plain to see, and if there is a solution, it will be through legal means, and quite public at that. Time will tell who will be the victor.

[flynabeech 0]

Your questions are appreciated and very valid........as a GC we manage our risk very well. In addition we obtain proper permits and comply with the local requiremenets to insure these situations do not occur. Our superintendents are constantly pursuing inspections and city participation to manage such risk. The last thing we want for our client or our business is to disregard permitting obligations or legal requirements.

As a company that deals with these issues on a daily basis the permitting and zoning can not be ignored. Any of the local retail developers will tell you the same thing.......sometimes it takes years to get approved in this community. I've participated with large developments around here.....

[Taylor610 0]

The USPA president suggested Loyds of London...... they won't touch it.
***
I don't know exactly what the Insurance policy has to cover, however they cannot require you to provide insurance outside of what the require everyone else to do. I had a similar problem when I opened my DZ and the answer for me was simple. I had to provide to the county a $1,000,000.00 policy that was termed a "slip and fall" policy. It excluded anything that had to do with the skydiving portion of the business. Once you put on your rig, you were not covered. The waiver made it very plain and the county was happy with the policy. I will try to find the company and agents name, but the policy itself was very reasonable. It also covered everything that had to be covered.

For what it's worth...you will be an FBO on the airport and I am sure that is ALL that has to be insured.

[CSpenceFLY 1]

It looks like after prodding from other local DZOs they wrote into the lease that the insurance needs to cover all of the skydivers and every operation.We have all seen these tacktics before.


.

[Thanatos340 1]

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In addition, the city of Independence suffered a 1 million dollar law suit initiated by the family of a fatal skydiver passenger in a general Aviation aircraft. The engine manufacture, Teledyne Continental lost over 20 mil on the same suit. (That had nothing to do with Skydiving, it was a General Aviation Accident) Please investigate the definition of "Nothing" and I'm confident such losses will not warrant such a meaningless statement.

You are correct. General Aviation is dangerous and cost the city Millions. It should be banned.

Your example has nothing to do with Skydiving. it was a general aviation accident. Do you have a $1,000,000 insurance policy that protects the city if you have a plane crash?? Sounds like you should or else you shouldnt be able to use the airport.

[flynabeech 0]

The city of Harrisonvill is not asking for a "slip and fall policy"

The request is for a GL policy that lists Harrisonville as additional insured for skydiving operations. The DZO by contract was required to provide this policy and its a contract requirement. Any commerce operation in this city complies with this specification. However, the other business can obtain this since their not a high risk activity such as skydiving. Again........this is simple business logic for a city managing their risk. The previous DZO couln't provide it and was shut down. Unless something has changed it does not exist to this day..........

Thus all discussions are a mute point

If an insurance carrier is reading these threads and wants to volunteer the policy please step up!

[davelepka 4]

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It looks like after prodding from other local DZOs they wrote into the lease that the insurance needs to cover all of the skydivers and every operation.

I'd love to see the $1M all-inclusive policies they have for their own DZ's.

For that matter I'd love to look at their AC maintenence logs, repack cards for every student rig, and their books along with related tax forms for the last few years.

You know what they say, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone".

[davelepka 4]

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The request is for a GL policy that lists Harrisonville as additional insured for skydiving operations. The DZO by contract was required to provide this policy and its a contract requirement. Any commerce operation in this city complies with this specification

Do other commerce operations require participants to sign a release of liability waiver? Every DZ I've ever been to does, and many of them are inclusive of other parties (land owners, AC owners, etc). I'm sure the city could just as easily be named on a liability waiver as they could on an insurance poilicy.

For that matter, I don't think such a waiver has ever been beaten in court, while insurance compaines make a killing denying claims. What would the city do the case of an incident where the insurance comany refused to pay?

[Amazon 7]

Ok I would like to ask, how many of the pilots on the Airport currently have theri aircraft listed as BUSINESS EXPENSES. IT seems perhaps, in the matter of fairness they would need to get the $1,000,000 insurance as well since they are part of a business entity .

Fair use can be seen from many sides.... and maybe the city, county, state, federal tax authorities need to look closer for some tax evasion.

Does FarmerMcNasty have an airplane based at the airport?

Does LifeFlight pay the $1,000,000 insurance??

[flynabeech 0]

Unfortunately it was stated that when someone places a parachute on their back insurance was exempt. Please do a little research and you'll find all parties were equipped to jump from the Independence aircraft. The lawsuit was generated from the tandams family as she was the only one not equipped to depart the aircraft. There's no question in the local aircraft community that it was a skydiving accident. I grew up at the Independence airport long before the skydivers arrived. Trust me................ they did nothing but impair skydiving!!!

They landed off regularly and in this community did not help your cause.

At the end of the day.......... Independence proved these requirements exist for a very valid reason. Any business must provide permits for zoning, commerce, and local operations.

[Thanatos340 1]

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Unfortunately it was stated that when someone places a parachute on their back insurance was exempt.

And then

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The lawsuit was generated from the tandams family as she was the only one not equipped to depart the aircraft.

OK.. so she didnt have a Chute.. So the insurance was or was not exempt??

Not following you here. If she had a Car wreck on the way to the DZ would that have also been a Skydiving Accident??

This accident was NOT a skydiving accident. It was a general Aviation Plane Crash reguarless what the local Flyboys want to call it.

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They landed off regularly and in this community did not help your cause.

Again you are comparing current skydivers to a group from over a Decade ago. Some things have changed.

Canopies today have a greater range as they are now made from ZP (Zero Porosity) material. Most canopies in the mid-90`s were still made from F-111 material which is a Porous fabric (More Drag). Also most canopies are now 9 Cell as opposed to the 5 and 7 Cell designs used back then. A 9 Cell ZP will fly much further than a 7 Cell F-111 and generally get better penetration into a head wind therefore cutting down on off landings.

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Independence proved these requirements exist for a very valid reason.

Since it was a General Aviation accident, I dont see your logic in them going after Skydiving. The accident was a plane crash, not a skydiving accident.

[Taylor610 0]

Unless something has changed it does not exist to this day..........

Thus all discussions are a mute point
***

Exactly, and unless the constitution has changed they cannot require something that cannot be had, that my friend is called free enterprise. As far as the discussions being a mute point, it sounds as if that is what you are hoping for, but I doubt that is the case here.

I don't think any of "us" want to see unfair tactics used to stop legitimate businesses from operating under all of the stringent governmental regulations, whatever CFR covers them. Then again it sounds like to me that legitimate is not what you are concerned with, rather how loud can I yell to get attention. You certainly aren't the first to try this method and keep your chin up brother, sometimes it works. I guess the only problem with that is someone, somewhere has to look in the mirror and deal with what they see.

[Taylor610 0]

It looks like after prodding from other local DZOs
***
Hey Bro, after my 3rd FAA visit, I taught them how to compare the packing data card to the riggers logbook. Shared that they should do that to all of the DZ's they visit.

Interesting outcome...

Oh yeah, when competition comes to town, they pull out all the stops!!! It is funny sometimes the distances some people will go. Not making accusations, just talking about personal experiences. Funny how those thing can come back to haunt you!