Interesting Weekend for Downplanes

[faulknerwn 38]

Well I had an interesting weekend for downplanes. First jump Saturday I went up with a new guy for his first ever CRW jump. He has ~60 jumps or so, and I put him on a friend's rig which has a Triathalon 150 in it (this kid weighed ~150 or so.) Anyway, the rig in its current setup had at least 100 jumps on it - and I had made 10-15 jumps on it myself with no issues.

So we go up and do this CRW dive, and do some rotations and he's doing really well and wants to do a downplane. So I have him climb down and I throw up my feet and at about 3500 feet we initiate the downplane. First little bit was fine and normal, and then I suddenly feel a jolt and my Lightning is spinning itself rapidly into line twists. We just were hanging onto each other's legs with our arms, so we let go, I have 5-6 line twists, and he's under a streamer. He chops and has a good reserve ~2000 feet or so. I fully expected to find a broken riser or a broken link when recovered, but everything was fine. The cutaway handle was still on the velcro when Jean went to cutaway. We were befuddled for a bit but the owner mentioned that he only had 2 inches or so of extra yellow cable past the white loop of the riser. It was long enough that it disappeared into the slot for it on the riser, and I never pull the cable out to inspect that unless I'm changing canopies. Anyway our theory is that the extra tension on the harness from the downplane was enough to pull the yellow cable past the loop. I am 100% sure the 3-rings were assembled correctly so that's the only theory we could come up with.

So this guy still absolutely loves CRW (he really does.) He got his first CRW, his first downplane and his first reserve ride all on one jump!

Lessons learned:

- Cut those cables long!
- Check the lengths if you're jumping unfamiliar gear - in theory it could have popped even on a hard opening
- Be VERY wary of starting downplanes low - if we had started at 1000 feet instead of 3500 feet he'd be dead.
- Be knowledgable about RSLs - if one had been hooked up on the released riser a royal mess would have happened - keep those cables long.

My other amusing downplane jump was I did the first CRW jumps of another guy at my dropzone. We also did a downplane on one of the jumps, and he's the first person who ever managed to steal not just one, but BOTH of my shoes! I laughed hysterically the entire way down to the pea pit on that jump. Luckily he's a German guy and he owns a German bakery and promised to bring back some good German beer for all of his firsts!

Wen

[relyon 0]

Yahoo! I'm off to check my cutaway cable lengths...

Bob

[voodew1 0]

That CReW stuff is of the DEVIL Leave my RW people alone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Take all the freefliers you can!!

The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid

[riddler 0]

I think it's possible for cable lengths to be too long as well. I sometimes put smaller people (usually girls) in the hanging harness, and the cable is long enough that if they have short arms they can't extract it all the way. Then you're getting into a situation where you start using two hands to pull on the yellow cable directly. And if it's got a nice new coating of Ace silicon lubricant (which it should), it's slippery and harder to yank on.

Obviously, 2 or 3 inches is way too short, but I think it's better to say that the cables should be the correct length. The correct length should probably be short enough that you can pull it out and free the 3-rings with one hand only grabbing the handle and nothing else.

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

[crwmike 0]

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Well I had an interesting weekend for downplanes. First jump Saturday I went up with a new guy for his first ever CRW jump. He has ~60 jumps or so, and I put him on a friend's rig which has a Triathalon 150 in it (this kid weighed ~150 or so.) Anyway, the rig in its current setup had at least 100 jumps on it - and I had made 10-15 jumps on it myself with no issues.

So we go up and do this CRW dive, and do some rotations and he's doing really well and wants to do a downplane. So I have him climb down and I throw up my feet and at about 3500 feet we initiate the downplane. First little bit was fine and normal, and then I suddenly feel a jolt and my Lightning is spinning itself rapidly into line twists. We just were hanging onto each other's legs with our arms, so we let go, I have 5-6 line twists, and he's under a streamer. He chops and has a good reserve ~2000 feet or so. I fully expected to find a broken riser or a broken link when recovered, but everything was fine. The cutaway handle was still on the velcro when Jean went to cutaway. We were befuddled for a bit but the owner mentioned that he only had 2 inches or so of extra yellow cable past the white loop of the riser. It was long enough that it disappeared into the slot for it on the riser, and I never pull the cable out to inspect that unless I'm changing canopies. Anyway our theory is that the extra tension on the harness from the downplane was enough to pull the yellow cable past the loop. I am 100% sure the 3-rings were assembled correctly so that's the only theory we could come up with.

So this guy still absolutely loves CRW (he really does.) He got his first CRW, his first downplane and his first reserve ride all on one jump!

Lessons learned:

- Cut those cables long!
- Check the lengths if you're jumping unfamiliar gear - in theory it could have popped even on a hard opening
- Be VERY wary of starting downplanes low - if we had started at 1000 feet instead of 3500 feet he'd be dead.
- Be knowledgable about RSLs - if one had been hooked up on the released riser a royal mess would have happened - keep those cables long.

My other amusing downplane jump was I did the first CRW jumps of another guy at my dropzone. We also did a downplane on one of the jumps, and he's the first person who ever managed to steal not just one, but BOTH of my shoes! I laughed hysterically the entire way down to the pea pit on that jump. Luckily he's a German guy and he owns a German bakery and promised to bring back some good German beer for all of his firsts!

Wen

Wen, have you considered (for lessons learned) the wisdom of taking a ~60 jump skydiver, on borrowed gear, doing CRW for the first time and doing a unplanned downplane?

It's an individual call. I won't say you were all out 'wrong' but at my experience level, I don't think I would do it.

At any rate, thanks for the info.

BSBD,

Michael

[DancingFlame 0]

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I sometimes put smaller people (usually girls) in the hanging harness, and the cable is long enough that if they have short arms they can't extract it all the way.

No, they still can. After extracting the handle with right hand, it's easy to hit the cable itself (!) with another hand. That's normal cutaway procedure all students study.

[DShiznit 0]

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That CReW stuff is of the DEVIL Leave my RW people alone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Take all the freefliers you can!!

I dunno, I have to have something to do until I hit that magical 200 number, right??? I mean - how many RW jumps have you made with me, Mr. AFFI?

[faulknerwn 38]

Wen, have you considered (for lessons learned) the wisdom of taking a ~60 jump skydiver, on borrowed gear, doing CRW for the first time and doing a unplanned downplane?
------

It wasn't unplanned - it was discussed on the ground. And the canopy was actually considerably more docile than what this guy normally jumps (a Stilletto 150/135) so I had no worries about him landing that. The vast majority of my downplanes end well above 2k - I never take them low. He has been at my dz for quite a while at this point - I knew his skills and abilities and had no qualms about doing that.

W

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

I lost the entire sole off of a shoe one time when I was the bottom, upside-down guy in a pendullum (drag plane). The sole met it's fate when the top guy dropped we two on bottom into the downplane. I laughed my ass off.

[riddler 0]

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No, they still can. After extracting the handle with right hand, it's easy to hit the cable itself (!) with another hand. That's normal cutaway procedure all students study.

This is not a normal cutaway procedure at the DZ I teach at. The procedures state "pull the cutaway handle". Some people state "to full arm extension" and others say "and throw it away", which may imply using both hands to get rid of the entire thing. But it isn't stated to use both hands or to grab the cord itself. Here is an instance from Category A of the USPA ISP:

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6. Pull the cutaway handle until no lower than 1,000 feet.

If you see anywhere it's written in the SIM to grab the cables, let me know so that I can integrate it into the FJC.

There are some problems with suggesting that you can use one or both hands to grab the cables. Obviously it works much of the time, but it won't always.

1. There is a reason both your cutaway and reserve handles have been located within easy reach on the front of your rig. Each can be activated with the use of only one hand. That is for situations where one hand is disabled for whatever reason. This sometimes happens. People have dislocated shoulders during exit, freefall or opening, and have been able to use only one hand to execute emergency procedures. Also, if you have one hand caught in the bridle (horseshoe), you won't be able to use it to release your main. If you don't have both hands free, then you can only use one for EPs.

2. The yellow cable should be slippery from a lubricant applied. The lubricant helps slide through the three-ring release when pull forces are high. The yellow cable should be lubricated every 30 days (recommendation by Hooknswoop). This also makes it slippery and hard to pull. It can certainly be done. But if anyone at your DZ teaches this to students, they should let them know that it's not necessarily going to be easy to do. Maybe they should practice that in the hanging harness. Remember that many times, pull forces exceed 50 pounds - trying to pull 50 pounds or more on slippery cables is difficult at best.

3. Pulling, then seeing it didn't work, then using one or both hands to grab the yellow cable is going to delay the emergency procedures at a time where every fraction of a second counts.

Normally, having to use both hands to grab the handle and cables would be an unusual circumstance. But if you cut the cables too long, then it will be required for every cutaway.

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

[pilotdave 0]

You don't need to be able to really pull the cable itself. Just pull the handle to full arm extension, then use your other hand to swipe down on the cable to clear it. But anyone that owns their own rig should know how far they need to pull the handle out to clear the cables when they practice cutting away on the ground, before a repack.

Dave

[riddler 0]

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Just pull the handle to full arm extension, then use your other hand to swipe down on the cable to clear it

How would you do this if you only had one hand free?

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

[pilotdave 0]

Ummm...with your free hand.

I'm guessing I don't understand your question...

Dave

[jumper03 0]

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He has ~60 jumps or so,

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(this kid weighed ~150 or so.)

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this guy normally jumps (a Stilletto 150/135)

Is it just me that thinks this is bad?

Jump

Scars remind us that the past is real

[ryoder 1,590]

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Lessons learned:

- Cut those cables long!
- Check the lengths if you're jumping unfamiliar gear - in theory it could have popped even on a hard opening
- Be VERY wary of starting downplanes low - if we had started at 1000 feet instead of 3500 feet he'd be dead.
- Be knowledgable about RSLs - if one had been hooked up on the released riser a royal mess would have happened - keep those cables long.

Instead of "cut those cables long", how about "make sure those cables are to manufacturer's specifications"?

Go to RWS's website and download the Vector 3 manual. Page 70 will tell you:
- No RSL: Length must be 6.5" +/- 1".
- With RSL: RSL side = 7.5" +/- 0.5"; Non-RSL side: 5.5" +/- 0.5"; Ensure there is a 2" differential between the two lengths.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[ryoder 1,590]

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You don't need to be able to really pull the cable itself. Just pull the handle to full arm extension, then use your other hand to swipe down on the cable to clear it. But anyone that owns their own rig should know how far they need to pull the handle out to clear the cables when they practice cutting away on the ground, before a repack.

Dave

It requires perhaps 8" of travel to release both sides of the 3-Ring system. Now why would I teach a student to waste time making sure the cable is completely out of the housings, instead of teaching them to pull the cable to arm's length, and then go for the reserve?

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[riggerrob 643]

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Quote

Just pull the handle to full arm extension, then use your other hand to swipe down on the cable to clear it

How would you do this if you only had one hand free?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

This relates to a problem that Parachutes Australia figured out in the late 1970s.
PA was the first company to offer Single Operation System on their Pygmee student rigs. Since the reserve ripcord cable was 6 inches longer than the cutaway cables (which were shorter than normal), a few short-armed students pulled the single handle far enough to cutaway, but not far enough to pull the reserve pins.
This was a recipe for disaster as the problem arose before RSLs or AADs were mandatory for students.
PA's solution was to teach students to pull the handle to full arm's extension (maintain the first grip) then strip cables with their free hand.
Before anyone starts bashing PA, remember that Pygmees were a huge improvement over military surplus harness/containers.

[pilotdave 0]

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It requires perhaps 8" of travel to release both sides of the 3-Ring system. Now why would I teach a student to waste time making sure the cable is completely out of the housings, instead of teaching them to pull the cable to arm's length, and then go for the reserve?

To ensure they've pulled the cable all the way and both sides have released. I wasn't taught that way and dont practice that way. But I have seen instructors teach that. Actually I had to do that in a hanging harness years ago to get the cable to release on both sides. But no need on my real rigs.

Dave

[AggieDave 6]

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That's normal cutaway procedure all students study.

Nope, not every DZ teaches that!

A lot of DZs teach a procedure that has the student with a hand on each handle, so its in their hands for when the harness shifts after a chop (even though the RSL *should* work).

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[ryoder 1,590]

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A lot of DZs teach a procedure that has the student with a hand on each handle, so its in their hands for when the harness shifts after a chop (even though the RSL *should* work).

Interesting. This is the technique I use myself in the case of a partial mal, but my DZ teaches AFF students to use both hands on the cutaway, then both hands on the reserve. I don't argue with the way they are teaching it, because I learned first hand a couple years ago, that a single-handed cutaway may not be able to overcome the velcro if you forget to first peel it upward.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[AggieDave 6]

My DZ teaches a single method for any mal for a student, less to think about, they revert to the one method when things go wrong.

look grab, look grab, peel pull, peel pull.

Thus far its worked for our students.

However, I do understand and can see the advantages and disadvantages of the two handed method, the one hand and swipe method and "start crying like a little girl until your cypres saves your ass" method. (ok, just kidding with the last one).

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[riddler 0]

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I'm guessing I don't understand your question...

Imagine that you only have one hand to execute your emergency procedures. This has happened to a few jumpers. I know personally one jumper that dislocated a shoulder on exit, and was only able to use one arm after opening - fortunately she didn't have to use EPs. I personally know another that caught the bridle around his right hand and had to execute EPs with the left hand. Either way, you only have one hand free.

If your cutaway cables are too long, you will not be able to release your main with just one hand. You pull the handle to full arm extension, and it doesn't release the three-rings because there is still some cable in the loop. Maybe you could pull the handle, then release it and then also pull some very slippery cable. Or maybe you couldn't if the cable was too slippery or if the pull force was high. Maybe the extra seconds of grabbing it twice costs you a few hundred feet of altitude. Do you want to chance that? To me it would make sense to have the cable the correct length, rather than just really long. If the cable is the correct length, you should be able to release the 3-rings with full arm extension with either hand. If it's too long, you can't do that.

Edit for grammar. I usually let one spelling or grammar error go, but for two or more, I have to fix it

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

[pilotdave 0]

Oh, I think its more for students just to make sure they have pulled all the way before they go for the reserve. If the cable is all the way out of the housing, both sides are definitely released.

But HERE's a video of an experience jumper that got his right arm disabled by a premature deployment. Has to cut away from a spinning mal with his left hand. Cutaway cable seems to be too long for him to have the leverage to get both sides to release with his left arm. Looks like he has to take wraps on the cable. Clearly very slippery and hard to pull. Don't know why the pull force was so high for him, but damn it's ugly.

Dave

[bigway 4]

can you tell me where i can find some clips of downplanes as i have never seen one and it makes me shudder just imagining it. A guy with 60 jumps doing a CRW with a downplane, wow, he must be doing pretty well with his skydiving not to mention the size of his balls.

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
.

[pilotdave 0]

The last 20 or so seconds of THIS video shows a downplane.

Dave