Wing Loadings - who is over?

[packing_jarrett 0]

what I don't get is why they make high performance canopies so big i.e cf 159. a few months ago I packed a 150VX for a guy that was probably around 160-170lbs. whats the point. it seems like its kind of encouraging for low jump number people to buy them. their arguement is "its only 160 sq.ft"

Na' Cho' Cheese

[bigway 4]

For the fat boys.

Dude, you need to get on a safire and learn to fly it. Learn everything about it and then get back on your crossfire.

It is good you have the right wingloading for your experience but you dont have the right wingloading for a crossfire let alone enough jumps.

I am not kidding you man, i have been selling some ICARUS canopies lately and when speaking to Hector (guy who runs ICARUS spain) he was making damn sure i would not sell the crossfire to anyone under 500 jumps or the VX to anyone under 1000 jumps. I know some kids in the states who jump velocity 99's with only 100 jumps. They are friends, but they are some fucking stupid friends.

Just be safe dude. I tell you something, you probably would not be able to jump at any dropzone i know of with a crossfire when you are so uncurrent over three years of only having 56 jumps.

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
.

[LearningTOfly 0]

Quote

broken legs still really suck.

Agreed

cheers

[billvon 3,095]

>but how much more difficult can it be to land a canopy that is
>say ? 50 square foot smaller than you're used to?

You really think it wouldn't be much trouble for me to land a 58 square foot Xaos? I could probably do that 2 times out of 3 without injury under good conditions with a clear pattern. Those aren't good odds.

>it can't be that hard going from a 190 down to a 150 . . .
>I genuinly think that there are some scare tacics in canopy sizeing.

That's like a pilot asking if there's much difference between flying a Cessna 150 and a King Air. (After all, it's just one more engine, a few more prop controls, some landing gear and a pressurization system!) One would suspect the pilot in question had never flown either.

There is a very big difference in flying a 190 vs a 150. Assuming a 160lb skydiver on a Pilot 150, here are a few:

1. When you bury the toggles on a 190, you will just about plane out. When you bury the toggles on a 150, you will go back up, stall, and fall 5 feet.

2. If you pull down one toggle of the 190 at 20 feet, you will turn into the ground and probably hurt your shoulder. If you pull down one toggle of the 150 at 20 feet, you will likely be whipped into the ground and break your femur.

3. If you body steer a 190 the wrong way it won't care. If you body steer a 150 the wrong way it will be a bit awkward to control.

In general, at that loading, the difference between a 190 and a 150 is a broken femur vs a sore shoulder or ankle. I think you'll see that once you start jumping.

>I'm pretty sure that once i get under my 190, it won't take
>me hundreds of jumps to get down to something that has a bit
>more zip around the sky.

To be sure, it takes no jumps at all to get down to any size you want. You could jump that Xaos-27 58 I mentioned above as soon as you have the canopy, and it has a LOT more zip around the sky. The trick is surviving the landing every time - which you might have trouble with.

A 190 might be a good size to start on. Once you start jumping it, try the following:

flat turn 90 degrees at 50 feet
flare turn at least 45 degrees
land crosswind and in no wind
land reliably within a 10 meter circle
initiate a high performance landing with double front risers and front riser turn to landing
land on slight uphills and downhills
land with rear risers

If you can do all that, then you may be ready to downsize. If you can't - then a 190 is a _very_ good place to learn how to do that stuff, where a mistake won't kill you.

[mjosparky 4]

Quote

My jump numbers are low, but somehow I think that 10,000+ hours of flying a number of sophisicated sophisticated jets translates into some kind of awareness of handling qualities.

That’s so much crap. That’s like saying a jumper with 10000 jumps can fly your 757. You can't be aware of handling qualities you know nothing about. You can justify being in over your head any way you want but as a pilot you of all people should know better. Why do they start new pilots on planes like a C-152 and require so many hours and extra training to go to a single engine complex aircraft?

That sounds familiar, "I can handle it."

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[MB38 0]

Quote

Opinion appreciated, but remember this is the internet, and we have not jumped together... why make calls so soon?

I've only jumped with about ten people on these forums. Probably about twice that many have seen me pilot a canopy. I've fallen two times on landing: jump two and seventeen. I have flying experience - including gliders - so I am quite aware of how wings fly. I built two functional miniature ram-air canopies of my own design when I was 14. I've been around dropzones for almost ten years. I've seen two people kill themselves under open canopies. I've been reading safety and canopy-piloting articles for about five years. I've read The Parachute and It's Pilot twice, I use it for reference daily. I have canopy coaching hiding in my next paycheck. I like to think of myself as decently well informed: I do what I can to learn everything I can. I'm one of those people who has an intellectual curiosity about everything.

But I have flown a canopy 57 times. Not 58, not 500.

I mean no offense. I'm sure you're a solid canopy pilot, probably better than I am. I just don't agree with somebody flying a canopy designed for people with ten times their experience.

Of course, what do I know? I'm a rookie.

I really don't know what I'm talking about.

[mjosparky 4]

Quote

But I have flown a canopy 57 times. Not 58, not 500.

I mean no offense. I'm sure you're a solid canopy pilot, probably better than I am. I just don't agree with somebody flying a canopy designed for people with ten times their experience.

Of course, what do I know? I'm a rookie.

You just might survive in this sport. But then you won't be cool like jimmy.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[shropshire 0]

This is so fucked up

At 50 something jumps, you cannt have more that a couple of hours (max) flying time under a canopy (That's nowt!!)... and most of that would be stooging around, not experimenting with the flight envelope..... It's an experience but it certainly is NOT EXPERIENCED!

Stay safe people. Learn how to fly when high.

.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[Meux 0]

I suppose that is why one of the first things I did off of AFF was to take a canopy course and have an expert teach me how to fly a 230. From there I did the same stuff on a 210. From there I did the same stuff on a 190.

Right now I'm very comfortable on a 190 and probably won't go any lower. I made one jump on a 170, liked it and went back to a 190. This is good for me.

Part of my flying years (15) was spent sitting on various ejection seats or wearing a parachute to the plane. Every year I went through all kinds of military training on parachuting. Water drills, emergencies under canopy, etc. All just in case I pulled the handles one time. During those years my jump numbers were zero, but I was getting training and thinking about steering with risers etc. Granted, it was all theory and no practical, again, somehow I think there has to be some benefit to training like that.

I think that BillVon's list of drills is the best, flat turns, flare turns, 10 meter circle etc.

Cheers,

MH

[piisfish 140]

Quote

i know people can cut you off on landing, but if you've set yourself up in plenty of time and made sure you're ok then this really shouldn't happen.

it shouldn't, but it CAN.
If it CAN, it WILL

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[bigway 4]

Quote

You just might survive in this sport. But then you won't be cool like jimmy

MB38 actually sounds like a pretty cool guy!!

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
.

[LearningTOfly 0]

Quote

That’s so much crap. That’s like saying a jumper with 10000 jumps can fly your 757. You can't be aware of handling qualities you know nothing about. You can justify being in over your head any way you want but as a pilot you of all people should know better. Why do they start new pilots on planes like a C-152 and require so many hours and extra training to go to a single engine complex aircraft?

Apples and oranges... take for example someone who races streetbikes- they'd likely do fine in a hot sports car. Going from sports car to sportbike, that's a different story, due to a more complex skill set and required judgement. Flying a plane in general is the more complex skill set in this case... not said in spite, just, that's what it is.
Cheers

[bigway 4]

If landing a plane is more skilled than landing a canopy, are you ready to land a crossfire in someones back yard?

You might know how to fly planes and you might know the logic of a canopy as it is the same principle as a wing but mate, you dont know shit about FLYING a CANOPY.

I can not believe that you do not listen to these people. are you saying cause you know how to skydive that you know how to base jump as well?

Fuckin pilots, think they know everything!

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
.

[mdrejhon 8]

I'm flying a wingloading that most people rarely complain about -- 1.1:1 for almost the last 100 jumps (although with my weight gain, I'm now about 1.15:1). While ever so borderline slightly aggressive wingload at 57 jumps, I have noticed it is somewhat more dangerous landing at this wingloading after a winter layover, than when I was jumping frequently last year. It really underlines how currency is important.

Landing in zero wind on a 170 after having only jumped 4 times in 4 months (Pesky Canadian winters...), is a tad *exciting* even if I stood it up... Although I think my downwinder under a Manta 288 was a little more scary than that. (Even though the 170 is obviously more dangerous.)

My jumping pace shall pick up soon, I may have a possible job lead...

[Andy9o8 2]

Hey, man. You'll recall that you and I had a discussion about this very subject just a couple of weeks ago. I'd like to see you happy and unbroken in this sport for a long, long time. I respectfully urge you to listen to these people who are trying to get a message across to you, most of whom have a lot more canopy rides than I do. Whether you do or not is up to you.

[hexadecimal 0]

Quote

Apples and oranges... take for example someone who races streetbikes- they'd likely do fine in a hot sports car.

Really? I've seen plenty of people prove that theory wrong...

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

Apples and oranges... take for example someone who races streetbikes- they'd likely do fine in a hot sports car. Going from sports car to sportbike, that's a different story, due to a more complex skill set and required judgement. Flying a plane in general is the more complex skill set in this case... not said in spite, just, that's what it is.
Cheers

Bike racers might transfer over to race cars ok ... because virtually everyone drives a car, and on average does it for a few hundred hours a year. So the basic physical currency is there, and the mental aspects of racing are vaguely similar.

But planes to canopies...do you do something else in life that gets you a hundred hours of canopy like time each year?

[ntacfreefly 0]

Quote

Apples and oranges... take for example someone who races streetbikes- they'd likely do fine in a hot sports car. Going from sports car to sportbike, that's a different story, due to a more complex skill set and required judgement. Flying a plane in general is the more complex skill set in this case... not said in spite, just, that's what it is.

Absolute nonsense. I'm currently coaching a 747 pilot at the dz. Nice guy - tons of hrs and about 300 jumps. He hasn't nearly got it all figured out yet. He's doing well but he's 'not above the curve' like you THINK you are just because he pilots large passenger aircraft for a living.

I doubt you are too. If anything I'd bet money that you're BEHIND the curve because of your thought process. Just like the smudge waiting to happen at our DZ who used to race motorcycles.

I don't doubt for one second that flying an aircraft is a complex skill set - just don't kid yourself into thinking flying a canopy well (and safely) isn't complex. If you believe that it is, then you really are WAY behind the curve.

Blues,
Ian

To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders. ~ Lao-Tzu

It's all good, they're my brothers ~ Mariann Kramer

[Fast 0]

Its sad because I just had this conversation with someone at my own DZ. I know at least 3 people who are jumping canopies that I don't think they should be. Who am I to say shit though? I was at 1.2 on my first canopy 1.35 on my second and I have moved on to 1.5 now. Been doing some kind of speed induced manuver for near 500 jumps now.

I just hope that they don't hurt themselves before they get to even my low experience level. It would be a real shame.


Every time I read a thread like this it reminds me of that kid out in california that died jumping a velo when he only had a couple hundred jumps cause he thought he could handle it. He was doing really good to, decent swoops. Then he fucked one up and died. I am glad that my fuckups have been on canopies that were forgiving enough for me to live and learn, rather than die and teach.

Oh well. I don't argue too much with people about what they should jump. I just don't like seeing people get hurt. Already saw one person swooping fuck up and go to the hospital and know another that has had surgery twice and still walks with a limp / cane because he was being too aggressive.

Shit happens I guess

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[hexadecimal 0]

It scares me to be in the air with someone who does less than 20 jumps a year, period. Add over-confidence into the equation, and put one of those people under a high performance canopy, and it's terrifying.

I do more jumps than that in 2 weekends... as do most other people who are active skydivers. I'm still very new to this sport, but I do know that currency is important, regardless of your wing loading or what kind of canopy you fly.

[bigway 4]

Quote

Who am I to say shit though? I was at 1.2 on my first canopy 1.35 on my second and I have moved on to 1.5 now

There is nothing wrong with your wingloading and downsizing there mate. Seems to be a good down size each time over 700 jumps.

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
.

[davelepka 4]

How can even begin to defend your position? It's rediculous.

56 jumps? Dependign on what sort of training you did, at least 15 or 20 of those would have been on a student rig at less than 1.0 to 1.

Even if the unthinkable happened, and you managed to go straight to your x-fire right off student status, that leaves you with 30 jumps on a canopy not set up to protect your ass.

Buy, yeah, make up your stories, and tell the world how cool you are. 56 jumps in three years. I can see the dedication. I can see the currency. I'm sure with all that dedication and drive, your skills should be off the charts.

This whole thing doesn't even seem real. Is this really true that a guy with 56 jumps in three years is allowed to jump and x-fire? Is the DZO blind? Or retarded? Or both?

It just fucking stupid. Plain and simple.

[bigway 4]

I am posting this because the guy in question has been asked if he is real or not and with posting this message maybe one of people at the dropzone will see it and help him out in thinking the correct way.
Learntofly, this is not an attack at you, i just think you need some help so am posting this so someone can save your life before it is too late.

PM from LearningToFly.....

Been deleted as i now think it was not nice to post a PM.____________________________

The guy sounds like he is nice person, i dont think we should flame him, i think he needs to be taken aside and helped out. I think the DZO should get his shit togethor and i think whoever sold him this canopy should have any ratings they may have stripped.

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
.

[Fast 0]

Quote

How can even begin to defend your position? It's rediculous.

56 jumps? Dependign on what sort of training you did, at least 15 or 20 of those would have been on a student rig at less than 1.0 to 1.

Even if the unthinkable happened, and you managed to go straight to your x-fire right off student status, that leaves you with 30 jumps on a canopy not set up to protect your ass.

Buy, yeah, make up your stories, and tell the world how cool you are. 56 jumps in three years. I can see the dedication. I can see the currency. I'm sure with all that dedication and drive, your skills should be off the charts.

This whole thing doesn't even seem real. Is this really true that a guy with 56 jumps in three years is allowed to jump and x-fire? Is the DZO blind? Or retarded? Or both?

It just fucking stupid. Plain and simple.

The best part of it all is, at this experience level, a person doens't even have the skills to tell the differences between a given canopy. I know I don't have all them skills. I am no wing loading nazi either. I went right to 1.2 before I even had my A card because thats what my instructors thought I could handle. I just paid my dues and spent some time jumping that canopy (300 jumps) so I could learn a few things before I ended up hurt.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[davelepka 4]

Yeah, interesting PM, chock full of non-applicable experince.

I can land the fuck out of any canopy without thinking about. It's built into me. I cannot land any airplane in any way. I might have some good ideas, but the brain to body co-ordination is not there when it comes to stick and rudder work.

This guy will learn. Sooner or later, he'll learn. I'm glad he's a pilot and such, and maybe he could learn faster than others, but there is a limit.

How long did he fly planes before he was allowed to solo 'those hot little planes'?

How many times has he called missed approach, or for any reason aborted a landing, and went around? I'd like to see him try that with a canopy. Just once.

I know a really nice guy who went in two weeks ago. It's not about being nice, it's about being real, and having respcet for yourself, and what you're doing.

I know for a FACT that his attitude around ariplanes when he had 56 hours was very different that his attitude about parachutes is now.

This guy doesn't need to be taken aside and helped. A guy who was raised by wolves, and then taught to jump on a desert island, and given an x-fire with 56 jumps needs to be taken aside and helped. This guy knows exactly what he's doing. Just ask him, he'll tell you.