landing out + wind direction..how to tell?

[EDYDO 0]

UUUUHHHHH yes, corrected now, thanks.

[agent_lead 0]

hey lots of great advice here in this thread....thanks alot for sharing all your wisdom...



ill be sure to exercise all that ive read and learned when the chance presents itself...

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www.facebook.com/agentlead

[Eule 0]

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are there certain things you guys look for to tell which way its blowing?

In my one and only out landing so far, I had no doubt as to the wind direction, as it was the reason I landed out. I landed two miles north and half a mile west of my exit point, despite being pointed into the wind since shortly after opening. I made a couple of checks on opening and figured out which way made me back up slowest, and then started looking over my shoulder for landing areas. The wind calmed down enough below around 1000' to let me get a little forward drive, and I didn't adjust my direction other than about a 15-20 degree right turn at about 500' to avoid some trees.

This was on the first or second load of the day (0900 or so); we got a winds-aloft forecast before jumping but it was LIES, ALL LIES!1! After that, things went on hold until about 1400 when the winds finally settled down.

Eule

PLF does not stand for Please Land on Face.

[packerboy 3]

If you have set yourself up for success from the beginning (which you have done hopefully), and you are inexperienced enough for this to be a problem for you, than hopefully you are jumping a big enough and square enough canopy that a groundspeed check (looking between your feet to see which way you are going fastest) should be just fine. If there is a wind sheer at 750 ft, hopefully you are flying a canopy that can afford you a flat (hopefully you have chosen a canopy that can afford you an aggressive toggle turn at that altitude [don't do one]) turn at that altitude. And hopefully you are flying a canopy that is forgiving enough to not kill you if you are going into a 10 mph downwind. And if the groundwinds are a whole lot more than that, hopefully you didn't get on the plane.

Don't let the wind direction take your focus off picking a landing area up high in order to not have to avoid objects down low.

If you have 50 jumps, have a Katana 107, jumping in 20 knot winds, didn't check your spot, didn't pick your landing area up high, hit a wind sheer at 1000ft, did an agressive enough turn to eat 800ft of altitude, and have now found yourself flying straight at some powerlines, you are in great big trouble, probably gonna die.

Moral of the story... if you can't figure out wind direction without a windsock... find out how and in the meantime jump a great big fucking canopy and not in high winds.

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In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

[Eule 0]

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If you have set yourself up for success from the beginning (which you have done hopefully), and you are inexperienced enough for this to be a problem for you, than hopefully you are jumping a big enough and square enough canopy that a groundspeed check (looking between your feet to see which way you are going fastest) should be just fine.

I guess I'm not sure how experience affects the fact that I was getting pushed backwards at a pretty good clip when pointed directly into the wind. I spotted based on the observed ground winds and the forecast winds aloft, and it turned out that the winds aloft were stronger than the forecast. Maybe experience would have told me to not get on the plane, or that I needed a canopy with more forward drive. On that particular jump, I had a student canopy, loaded at about 0.8 to 1.

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Don't let the wind direction take your focus off picking a landing area up high in order to not have to avoid objects down low.

I had a landing area picked out at about 3000'. Then I blew backwards past it. Then I picked another one. Then I blew backwards past it. I then figured out I needed to look over my shoulder to pick. I had a few different ones lined up, based on if I was going to get blown backwards all the way to the ground, or if I would eventually fall out of the really fast winds. Once I started getting a little drive, I knew I was going to land in a particular field, but I didn't know if I was going to land in the fairly open north end, or in the south end that had a stand of trees in it. I got enough drive to see that I was going to land in the south end, and turned to avoid the trees. Not that this will impress all the experts, but I did manage to stand it up.

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Moral of the story... if you can't figure out wind direction without a windsock... find out how and in the meantime jump a great big fucking canopy and not in high winds.

Your input is noted.

Eule

PLF does not stand for Please Land on Face.

[Richards 0]

If you hit the ground too fast for you to run and you get all fucked up....thats downwind!

Richards

My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within.

[packerboy 3]

So you had no problem figuring out which direction the wind was coming from, good. So the problem that occured was a poor spot and too high winds for such a canopy and wingloading. You managed to stand it up, not break yourself and learned from the experience no doubt. Excellent. All is well then. I wasn't trying to take a stab at anyone or any specific situation, I just have a bad habit of replying to the last post in the thread to make a general post on the thread topic.

My point was that if you can't figure out what direction the wind is coming from without a windsock, you will need to add extra variables of safety to your skydive while you learn how to do so. Such as a forgiving canopy and jumping in not so crazy winds.

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In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

[Eule 0]

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I wasn't trying to take a stab at anyone or any specific situation, I just have a bad habit of replying to the last post in the thread to make a general post on the thread topic.

I sort of thought that was what was going on, but I wasn't sure. It's all good.

Having your name quoted in the subject line of the post tends to make you think the post is about you. If you are replying to make a general comment, it is possible to edit out the person's name in the subject, so it doesn't look like you're jumping on the last person to post.

Eule

PLF does not stand for Please Land on Face.

[packerboy 3]

You could reply to the original post, but that would mean going back a page...

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In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

[Ron 10]

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One thing that will help is losing the fear of downwind or crosswind landings, or insisting on upwind landings

When you are below your turn altitude (you know what that is right?) Then DON'T turn.

A Down Wind landing is MUCH better than landing in ANY turn.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[kelpdiver 2]

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A Down Wind landing is MUCH better than landing in ANY turn.

Should an obstruction become apparent, the turn sounds better. Just don't wait till the last second to realize it's there.

[Ron 10]

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Should an obstruction become apparent, the turn sounds better.

You would be incorrect. Landing in brakes into an object is better than landing in a turn.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[packerboy 3]

Turning too low to avoid an object has killed alot of people, I would rather hit an object with the forward speed of MY canopy (Sabre 150 1:1) than hit the ground while in a hard turn (much faster closure speed with object being planet).

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In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

[kelpdiver 2]

So then why does Bill stress the value of being able to do flat turns low? There's some persumption here that the choice is straight or crash in a toggle turn. Certainly at 300ft it's a no brainer.

Barbed wire, power lines, PEOPLE, cattle are things I'd rather not hit. Often don't need to turn 90 to miss. Though on one occasion it served me much better than the alternative.

[Ron 10]

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So then why does Bill stress the value of being able to do flat turns low?

So you can *avoid* landing in a turn.

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There's some persumption here that the choice is straight or crash in a toggle turn. Certainly at 300ft it's a no brainer.

Really? Then what do you do at 300 feet?
200? 100? 50? 25?

From 300 feet I do a 360...So I would not call that low anyway.

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Barbed wire, power lines, PEOPLE, cattle are things I'd rather not hit.

I have seen more people get carried away from trying to turn to avoid them, than hitting those very things.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Skydivesg 7]

Every DZ has some kind of very prominent landmarks such as an interstate or major highway, lake, river, forest, mountains, large buildings, housing complex, towers......something, even if it's just the next town. These things could be as far away as 5 to 10 miles and you can still see them from canopy. (now I know some of you are going to say that you've jumped at DZs that don't have any and to that I would simply say: BS)
It's your job to know what direction the surface winds are blowing and where the DZ is in relation to the major land marks. You should also know the location of the intended spot. You can use the sun which is also very helpful. Don't depend on someone else to volunteer the information, find it out for your self. Be observant and ask questions. You also have the choice of laying back and taking a little nap or looking out the window on the climb to altitude.
You should do this for every new DZ at which you jump until you feel confident that you know and recognize the landmarks. If you know the landmarks and you know the wind direction you'll know which way to land when landing off field.
Knowledge is power.
Be Safe
Sandy

[Broke 0]

Read the article on the accuracy trick, and try to practice it. If you see a barbed wire fence in your field of vision and it is rising you are ok if it is falling in your field of vision then you are still ok, however if it is not moving then you might have a problem. However crab a little untill it is rising in your feild of vision and then you can turn back into your final. I was explained that the whole planned landing pattern stuff is all very basic AFF stuff. You can learn other ways to pilot your canopy to keep yourself alive that dosen't involve plans that you may have difficulty adapting. Not every DZ has a lot of outs. The accuracy trick can even be used to determin if you can get back to the DZ or not.

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/safety/detail_page.cgi?ID=31

Divot your source for all things Hillbilly.
Anvil Brother 84
SCR 14192

[kelpdiver 2]

if your conclusion is that 'you're probably' ok with the barb wire fence in front of you, it's probably time to pick a different course, or you might end up doing the safety 90 degree turn just before final. Winds can change. If I have any doubt, I'm going to make sure I land short of it, even though it's can be a PITA to find a gate out.

Same with herds of cows - those landing before me can get them to move all over, including the spot I'm aiming for.

[kelpdiver 2]

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So then why does Bill stress the value of being able to do flat turns low?

So you can *avoid* landing in a turn.

????

It's still a turn. Intended to avoid some last minute hazard, be it another canopy flier or whatever.

And for that matter, he and others have talked about flared turns that *are* landing in a turn.

> I have seen more people get carried away from trying to turn to avoid them, than hitting those very things.

Lack of practice doesn't work well in any other aspect of the sport.

[Broke 0]

I was just using it as a dirty example. Maybe I should have prefaced everything with if you don't fly over or at it you can't land on it.

Divot your source for all things Hillbilly.
Anvil Brother 84
SCR 14192

[Ron 10]

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????

It's still a turn. Intended to avoid some last minute hazard, be it another canopy flier or whatever.

He said flat turns *low*, not in a landing. And you can't really do a flat turn at the last minute.

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And for that matter, he and others have talked about flared turns that *are* landing in a turn.

Those are landing in a turn, but very different than a flat turn. Also very few people I know can even do a 90 degree carve. Most are lucky to be able to turn 45 degrees. If you need this trick, you screwed up many times, and have a very small chance of pulling it off in an emergency.

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> I have seen more people get carried away from trying to turn to avoid them, than hitting those very things.

Lack of practice doesn't work well in any other aspect of the sport.

Please tell me where I said not to practice emergency landing procedures?

I just don't agree with you saying that landing in a turn is better than a straight in braked biff. Have you done both?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[billvon 3,120]

>I would rather hit an object with the forward speed of MY
>canopy (Sabre 150 1:1) than hit the ground while in a hard turn . . .

Definitely. It's true in flying as well. It's better to land downwind, under control, into a forest than to land into the wind on a runway out of control. We had an example of the latter happen at Skydive Long Island some years back. Pilot was killed, one jumper paralyzed from the neck down, another one with many broken bones.

A flat turn is a good way to avoid an obstacle - IF it can be completed in time. It should never be tried until one has a lot of practice up high AND down low under good conditions. An incorrectly done flat turn can be worse than no turn at all.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Please tell me where I said not to practice emergency landing procedures?

I just don't agree with you saying that landing in a turn is better than a straight in braked biff. Have you done both?

You didn't. You said that you've seen more people hurt doing low turns than you have that crashed into a fixed object. Your conclusion was that it's better to hit the object. I put out the counter conclusion that a lot of people don't practice enough to safely do the low turn. Your suggestion, it seemed was to just hit the object, and next time pay more attention on navigation.

I've never hit an object, nor hit hard in a turn on final. I've certainly eaten a lot of dirt in other ways. Worst for me were flaring off axis to the wind and not compensating when it pushes me laterally. I have done a 90 somewhere in the 100ft+ range, and once carved 30-40 degrees right when a gust on final had me heading right for a person (mistake there was picking a target spot too close to him).

[Ron 10]

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You didn't. You said that you've seen more people hurt doing low turns than you have that crashed into a fixed object

And I have seen more people get hurt tying to avoid those objects than people that have hit them. One guy I know hit a barb wire fence and went under it...No damage to him, another bounced off one. The only damage was some pokes from the barbs. I have seen people biff turing to avoid them with damage from ego to broken up. I know a guy (Zhills bar has great POV video) that turned to avoid a cow and broke his ankle. Seen people hit a cow and bounce off just losing their breath.

Since you like to quote Bill... "A flat turn is a good way to avoid an obstacle - IF it can be completed in time. It should never be tried until one has a lot of practice up high AND down low under good conditions. An incorrectly done flat turn can be worse than no turn at all."

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Your conclusion was that it's better to hit the object. I put out the counter conclusion that a lot of people don't practice enough to safely do the low turn.

Yours is not a counter-conclusion...I took the fact that most can't pull the turn off correctly into forming my conclusion that more people would be hurt less by hitting the object than trying to turn when low.

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Your suggestion, it seemed was to just hit the object, and next time pay more attention on navigation.

When low and your choice is to hit an object or try a turn...You would be better off to hit the object. Way too many people attempt the turn and get carried off the landing field.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334