Freefly friendly closing pin

[squirrel 0]

Quote

The Flex pins are more of a Europe/UK thing. Outside of there its really rare to see them. That said... I can't think of a single time I have ever seen one in the US. I can also count one 1 finger the number of premature deployments I've seen in the last 6 years, and that was due to a worn out BOC and not a pin issue.

premature opening on my load 10 days ago at Elsinore...hmmm. He was in a sit. Horseshoed, but released at cut-a-way. Old rig though.

________________________________
Where is Darwin when you need him?

[AFFI 0]

Once again -

Can Anyone Answer This Question???

How is a "normal closing pin" unfriendly to freeflying?

[AFFI 0]

[squirrel 0]

hi mykel,

it would be this one:

"An "Out of Sequence Deployment" (a type of Horseshoe) means that the container opened and the PC had not yet been deployed."

did not know this guy, just on the same load. he had purchased this rig used, FIRST jump on it. he said he was in a sit, then next thing he knew the main was out. fellow jumper saw the PC still in the pocket on the bottom of the container for a few seconds, then pop out, at same time or near cut-a-away time.

________________________________
Where is Darwin when you need him?

[apoil 0]

Quote

Some potential problems:

1. Long 'closing pins' may cause PC-in-tow mals since they need a lot more slack in the bridle to clear the loop.

2. A damaged closing pin may cause a PC in tow. Since they're made of plastic and not stainless steel that's more likely.

3. A badly kinked closing pin may cause a PC in tow.

4. There are a few interesting ways to catch your bridle on the closing pin and lock it off, causing a PC in tow. Try it sometime with a flexible cable as a closing pin and a bridle. It can happen with a curved pin too but it's a lot harder to do.

5. The long pins WILL wear out your closing loop faster. Be careful that your "solution" doesn't end up causing the same problem you were trying to avoid.

[AFFI 0]

So the jumper had a "Out of Sequence Deployment" that cleared itself?

Lucky...

Do you know why he had to cut it away?

[mjosparky 4]

Quote

I don't need people to tell me what I have to do as I'm already a big boy

You asked a question and you got an answer. I don’t see where anyone TOLD you what to do. You may be a big boy in the real world but in skydiving you are still a babe in arms.

Quote

I like to LEARN from more experienced jumpers, and ultimately the decisions are mine.

You are right, decisions are yours to make. But you must be willing to listen before you can learn. Dave was attempting to get you to think through what it was you asked. I am sure you would agree that thinking is huge when trying to learn.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[meistwer 0]

Quote

Quote

I don't need people to tell me what I have to do as I'm already a big boy

You asked a question and you got an answer. I don’t see where anyone TOLD you what to do. You may be a big boy in the real world but in skydiving you are still a babe in arms.

Quote

I like to LEARN from more experienced jumpers, and ultimately the decisions are mine.

You are right, decisions are yours to make. But you must be willing to listen before you can learn. Dave was attempting to get you to think through what it was you asked. I am sure you would agree that thinking is huge when trying to learn.

Definitely, that's why I ask and I value the opinions from people, otherwise I'd have it modified already, I just have to take it to a rigger. It's just that it sounded to much like some experience jumpers I know who like patronising the less experience like if they didn't have a brain and were kind of undesirable dumbos.
I got quite good answers from people, which I truly appreciate but I think that perhaps my way of approaching the question had lead to ambiguities.

Blue ones

[phoenixlpr 0]

I have Freefly friendly altimeter and even shoes. Are you interested?

[squirrel 0]

Quote

So the jumper had a "Out of Sequence Deployment" that cleared itself?

Lucky...

Do you know why he had to cut it away?

i saw the the chopped main while i was under canopy. after the jump i met him in the gear store, he had recovered the main, it was a tangled mess, he said it was a ball of shit above his head, so he chopped.

________________________________
Where is Darwin when you need him?

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

Once again -

Can Anyone Answer This Question???

How is a "normal closing pin" unfriendly to freeflying?

Don't you know? Any kind of change must be good. (when you're new, having something 'different' validates a desire to feel special - A normal pin doesn't have to be unfriendly, as long as one can use the change to feel proactive. But, this poster is asking a question and getting feedback from someone like Bill Booth - it's a good thread).

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[packertom 0]

if it's not broke, don't fix it... the straight or curved pin, system dependant have done well... here's my rule on changes... if the change will not SIGNIFICANTLY improve the system... it's not worth the effort... the flex pin will work, but it causes more and different problems... the cables will wear faster than stainless steel... that's just a fact... it's important to avoid jumping on a band wagon because a few people are doing something, a while ago we had a bunch of mexican skydivers come through and they all had 2 closing loops... WTF?!?!?!? they'd but the pin through both... I asked them and they all swore that it cured premature deployments because if one broke the other one was there... I explained that this was voodoo hoodoo bullshit and if they were to just maintain one closing loop it wasn't an issue... they all laughed at my lack of knowledge and continued with their two closing loops... whatever, if it makes you feel better change, but you've got to ask yourself, where is the empirical evidence that this change will significantly improve the system... just my thoughts

Tom

tom@velocitysportswear.com
www.velocitysportswear.com
What's YOUR Zombie Plan?

[AFFI 0]

Quote

if it's not broke, don't fix it... the straight or curved pin, system dependant have done well... here's my rule on changes... if the change will not SIGNIFICANTLY improve the system... it's not worth the effort... the flex pin will work, but it causes more and different problems... the cables will wear faster than stainless steel... that's just a fact... it's important to avoid jumping on a band wagon because a few people are doing something, a while ago we had a bunch of mexican skydivers come through and they all had 2 closing loops... WTF?!?!?!? they'd but the pin through both... I asked them and they all swore that it cured premature deployments because if one broke the other one was there... I explained that this was voodoo hoodoo bullshit and if they were to just maintain one closing loop it wasn't an issue... they all laughed at my lack of knowledge and continued with their two closing loops... whatever, if it makes you feel better change, but you've got to ask yourself, where is the empirical evidence that this change will significantly improve the system... just my thoughts

Tom

Great Post....

Another thing to consider is you may not want to try something "new" until after it has been on the market for some time - let others do the "BETA" testing...

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

if it's not broke, don't fix it...

I absolutely hate that quote - continuous improvement is important in any endeavor. That single quote needs to die with all the senior citizens that think it's the best cliche ever.

Quote

if the change will not SIGNIFICANTLY improve the system... it's not worth the effort...

I absolutely think this is a great statement for skydiving gear. We don't win much for the risk with just minor 'incremental' type improvements. And it applies even when the original system "ain't broke"

crotchety old man voice "capewells work great and it AIN'T BROKE - I don't need no stinkin' wierd-ass three ring system. And don't get me started on putting a reserve on my BACK....."

I don't think the original poster's cables pin is a good idea though. Nice try, glad someone else is trying it. We still haven't seen any post about why some guys think it's better or at least equivalent - sure doesn't sound like it to me.

Me? I try and maintain my gear in good shape, pack the right size canopy for my container, and keep my closing loop tight and fresh.

Your 'band wagon' comment is dead on.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[peek 21]

Quote

How is a "normal closing pin" unfriendly to freeflying?

Well, actually I kind of thought of one (under some circumstances).

Ever since the Cypres came out I have had an uncomfortable feeling about closing loops. A normal reserve container closed with a normally tight Cypres style loop has always seemed to me to be less secure than a rig without an AAD and using a 550 sheathing loop, because the pin can slide easier.

(There are some advantages to this of course, like, very tight rigs are unlikely to have a hard pull.)

I have noticed that many people are no longer using 550 sheathing for closing loops, but are instead using some type of material that is much slicker.

Added to that is that some people are not making their main containers close very tight. Some of the pins I have tested have been able to move quite easily. Some are kind of scary to me.

I actually think that if manufacturers had not begun making rigs with more secure closing flaps that we would be seeing many more open container problems.

The additional friction of a flexible cable combined with a 550 sheathing loop makes for a more securely closed container (although with the disadvantage of high wear, something that many skydivers are not willing to deal with maintenance wise.)

That's why I recommend flexible cable pins only to those willing to take on the extra work.

[meistwer 0]

Quote

I actually think that if manufacturers had not begun making rigs with more secure closing flaps that we would be seeing many more open container problems.

That's actually the original reason why I posted this question in the forum. The closing flap of my Javelin seems to like to open in free fall. I'm going to take it to a riger next week to see what he can do. I saw people using the flex pins, mostly freefliers and I thought that that may be an extra security that I could add to my rig as it has the problem with the flap. Have anybpdy had a similar problem? What did you do to tackle it?

Blue ones

[AFFI 0]

Quote

The closing flap of my Javelin seems to like to open in free fall.

Have anybpdy had a similar problem? What did you do to tackle it?

The Javelin container is nortorious for having the closing flap come open in freefall, (Javelin AAD, that way if you burn in, at least your bridle was out) it is had to believe that they have not altered thier design much to address this issue. Now this does not apply to ALL JAv's and other container certainly have thier issues but I could show you many many many Jav's w/a open pin flap in freefall and I know many javelins owners who are trying modifications to make it stay closed.

When I made my gear choice years ago I really investigated problems with every container on the market and I settled for what I considered to be the best engineered rig on the market at that time, but if that assesment were made today perhaps there would be another front runner - there are a lot of good rigs on the market these days, and to me, until Javelin does not address thier issues then it will be considered by me a second rate engineering design.

Skydiving is not a place to become a BETA tester for new shit, get a contiaier that is tried and true and stays closed in freefall. Hell, a lot of people clain the Vector Riser Cover flaps come undone in freefall, but not if you pack it right and the same hold true for many Jav's out there - maybe you need some guidance in closing you JAv from a mentor type person. But having this type of problem is not an excuse for not getting a pin check.

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…