Freefly friendly closing pin

[meistwer 0]

Hi guys,

My rig has a normal closing pin but I want to change it to another type I have seen in some rigs. Is like a plastic string similar to a rip cord.
Do you know what it is called and where can I buy one from online?
Apparently is quite good if you freefly, what do you think? I've just started freeflying and I want to make my rig as safer is possible :)

Blue ones

[AggieDave 6]

How many thousands and thousands of jumps have been made with a standard closing pin? How many of them freefly? How many fatalities, injuries or other problems have you seen with the current system?

Same question for this plastic ripcord setup that I *think* I saw once and only once on one person who thought it was neat. Nevermind that all the other top FFers I've seen all have a standard pin setup (be it BOC or PullOut).

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[caspar 0]

a lot of my friends jump "two pin teflon" ,the cutaway cable basically (2 of them). its pretty damn long and they alll think its wicked.

"When I read about the evils of drinking, I gave up reading."

[justinb138 0]

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How many millions of jumps have been made with a standard closing pin?

[PhreeZone 20]

The Flex pins are more of a Europe/UK thing. Outside of there its really rare to see them. That said... I can't think of a single time I have ever seen one in the US. I can also count one 1 finger the number of premature deployments I've seen in the last 6 years, and that was due to a worn out BOC and not a pin issue.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[kelel01 1]

I agree with what you're saying, but I don't like the way you put it.

That's the same kind of answer I always get when I ask some old-timer about exit separation (when he wanted to put freefliers out first), etc. How about, "How many hundreds of thousands of tandem jumps have been completed WITHOUT the passenger falling out of the harness?".

Don't deflect answers, b/c YOU think the question has no value. It happens too much in this sport.

[zoobrothertom 5]

The flex pin isn't something new. My old starlite container had a straight pin on the bridle with a throw out.

There is probably a good reason why you don't see it anymore. Until now, that is.

Anybody know why they originally disappeared?

____________________________________
I'm back in the USA!!

[brabzzz 0]

For what it's worth, i think they look w*nk (they resemble a static line!). The only place yellow cable looks cool is wingsuits and helmets...

A decent container should almost entirely negate the possibility of knocking a pin out. And it you're worried about a BOC induced premature, switch to pinpull. I know it's extremely unlikely, but with a far-too-short closing loop, i can't help thinking there is potential for cable deformation/higher pull forces using a 'flexpin'.

---------------------------------------
Ex-University of Bristol Skydiving Club
www.skydivebristoluni.com

[AggieDave 6]

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Don't deflect answers, b/c YOU think the question has no value. It happens too much in this sport.

That was not a deflection and the question has value. I was getting the question asker to think about pieces of the equation. Sorry if that wasn't clear to you or anyone else. It works great in person since a skydiver that can think is a much better skydiver that only knows what others have told them what the answer was.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[kelel01 1]

I see. It just sounded a certain way . . . a bit too familiar.

[RMURRAY 1]

bill booth had commented on this. just search using flex pin........rm

First, the yellow coating I use on my breakaway handles is Lolon F (an "alloy" of nylon, not Teflon), coating a 7x7 steel cable. It is the best choice for breakaway cables for several reasons. It is very tough, reasonably slippery, flexible, easy to form ends with, and won't get brittle until -60C. I have never heard of it cracking or coming off the cable in the 20 years I have been using it. (Jump shack IS using Teflon, which they
color code red. We do not use it for too many reasons to go into here.)
The black coating we use for student ripcords is another form of nylon. We do not use it for 3 ring cable because it is too stiff, not as slippery, and cracks far easier than Lolon F. However, Its stiffness is a good feature for a spring loaded pilot chute main container system, and because main systems are packed before each jump, a crack should be easily spotted.

I offer a third kind of nylon, with no color coding, for main container flex pins on my older Tandem systems. It is a thicker coating on a thicker steel cable. Each coating and cable size is carefully chosen for its application after a lot of testing.

Here are the positives and negatives of flex pins on solo system main containers.

Positives:
1. If your container is too big for your canopy and/or your closing loop is too long, and you jump a rig without adequate bridle protection, and your entire bridle comes out of the pilot chute pouch (without the pilot chute) while doing head down, then the flex-pin is less likely to be prematurely removed by the wind drag on the horseshoed bridle, which by the way, is well under one pound..

Negatives:

1. Because the flex-pin is longer than a curved pin, you must be very careful to leave enough pilot chute bridle, between the pin and bag, slack AND exposed, to allow the pin to leave the loop. If you carefully tuck all bridle between the pin and the bag safely inside your container, you will have a pilot chute in tow malfunction.
2. Because the flex-pin is longer and has more surface friction than a stainless curved pin, it damages your closing loop ten times faster. Also, you cannot put your pull-up cord under a flex-pin before removing it as you would with a stainless curved pin, because the pull-up cord would then cut grooves in the nylon coating of the flex-pin causing a possible total on your next jump. This causes you to further damage your closing loop each time you remove your pull-up cord. And the heat damage the flex-pin and pull-up cord do to your closing loop is nearly invisible. This sets you up for a broken loop, out -of-sequence horseshoe malfunction. Do you pack your own rig every time? Are you sure the packers understand the above limitations of your flex-pin system?
Then you have to worry about which type of nylon coating your flex-pin has (will it crack, or splinter, or come off the steel cable core?), and whether the nicopress swage which holds the whole thing together was properly applied. Standards for the above items are simply not published.
3. Curved pins cannot be "pushed" out, they simply rotate in place. Try it. When a curved pin comes out prematurely, it was most likely pulled out by a bridle snag. And anything which snags your bridle will probably not stop pulling after only one inch. So flex-pins offer no protection from bridle snag induced premature openings.

This is just the short list. If flex-pins were better for most solo rig applications, we would offer them. We don't.

Bill Booth

[dragon2 2]

All our tandem rigs have them, some guys here do NOT like jumping a regular pin tandem rig.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[riggerrob 643]

Your attention would be better spent ensuring that you have the correct container/canopy combination and tightening your main closing loop.

[meistwer 0]

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Don't deflect answers, b/c YOU think the question has no value. It happens too much in this sport.

[....] It works great in person since a skydiver that can think is a much better skydiver that only knows what others have told them what the answer was.

The reason why I'm asking it is exactly because I think, I believe it's a fairly inteligent decision to ask other people's opnions before taking the risk of modifying my rig as I'm new in the sport, only 80 jumps and 1 year in the sport. I don't need people to tell me what I have to do as I'm already a big boy but I like to LEARN from more experienced jumpers, and ultimately the decisions are mine. Honestly, I didn't expect somebody having a go on me just for asking.
I've seen few hardcore freefliers using them I was just wondering if they are safer.

Blue ones

[NWFlyer 2]

You approached the question in a way that's going to get you a response like AggieDave's. You didn't say "Tell me about the advantages and disadvantages of this approach" you said "I'm going to change because I've seen others do it."

That's bound to encourage skepticism.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[billvon 3,111]

Some potential problems:

1. Long 'closing pins' may cause PC-in-tow mals since they need a lot more slack in the bridle to clear the loop.

2. A damaged closing pin may cause a PC in tow. Since they're made of plastic and not stainless steel that's more likely.

3. A badly kinked closing pin may cause a PC in tow.

4. There are a few interesting ways to catch your bridle on the closing pin and lock it off, causing a PC in tow. Try it sometime with a flexible cable as a closing pin and a bridle. It can happen with a curved pin too but it's a lot harder to do.

[mjosparky 4]

What is called the “Flex pin” today was called the “Polish pin” in the late 70’s. I think it was Leo Orloski that came up with it. It was better then using a “bite” of the bridle to close the container. The reason it is no longer used is something better came along, the curved pin.

As Bill has pointed out, there is a trade off for making changes to a rigs design. If you do not understand the “why” of system it is better if you leave it alone.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[peek 21]

Aah, one of my favorite subjects....

See:http://www.pcprg.com/flexcab.htm

[meistwer 0]

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You approached the question in a way that's going to get you a response like AggieDave's. You didn't say "Tell me about the advantages and disadvantages of this approach" you said "I'm going to change because I've seen others do it." .

Where did I say that? I said I have seen people using them and asked exactly word by word....'Apparently is quite good if you freefly, what do you think?'....I asked as I'm trying to figure out if its better or not, that's it.

[AggieDave 6]

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Where did I say that? I said I have seen people using them and asked exactly word by word....'Apparently is quite good if you freefly, what do you think?'....I asked as I'm trying to figure out if its better or not, that's it.

Did you look for an answer to what I proposed? Did you find a problem(s) with the current system?

Now that you've seen Bill Booth's side of the story do you think one system has an advantage over the other?

Hopefully you see that its a trade off, just like most things in skydiving. So you have to evalutate that trade off to see if its something that is ok for you. Not just because some other jumpers do it.

What you choose is definately your choice, but I was trying to make you ask some questions to yourself besides just see what others thought and go with it.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[NWFlyer 2]

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I want to change it to another type I have seen in some rigs.

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where can I buy one from online

That sends a strong message that you've already made up your mind. You've since clarified that you haven't, but if you look at the way someone who doesn't know you or your motivations might interpret your original post, perhaps it'll help you understand why you got the reaction you did.

It's all good -you're getting good information, including information pulled from a post by Bill Booth himself; that's one of the benefits of this forum.

What I suspect AggieDave reacted to has more to do with history and less to do with you ... there are quite a few people who will come on here (or come to someone they know at the DZ) and say "I saw someone doing this and I'm going to do it, too" without having a single clue as to why one might do it or whether it makes any sense for them. So... the more experienced jumpers challenge and ask "What's your rationale?" Like he said, anything that gets us less experienced jumpers thinking about our decisions critically can only make us better skydivers.

[AFFI 0]

How is a "normal closing pin" unfriendly to freeflying?

[Yossarian 0]

i know someone with flex pin closing and they say they like it as it allows them to do a self-pin check prior to exit, not sure what you all think of that

[AFFI 0]

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i know someone with flex pin closing and they say they like it as it allows them to do a self-pin check prior to exit, not sure what you all think of that

Does the flex closing pin tell if the PC is cocked or if the reserve pin/riser cover flaps are proper or if part of the PC bridle is exposed or is there are any problems with the rig that an extra set of eyes might catch that may have been overlooked?

Self pin checks prior to exit is a personal choice, there seems to be more reasons to get one than to not.

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[RMURRAY 1]

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i know someone with flex pin closing and they say they like it as it allows them to do a self-pin check prior to exit, not sure what you all think of that

Does the flex closing pin tell if the PC is cocked or if the reserve pin/riser cover flaps are proper or if part of the PC bridle is exposed or is there are any problems with the rig that an extra set of eyes might catch that may have been overlooked?

Self pin checks prior to exit is a personal choice, there seems to be more reasons to get one than to not.

do you freeflyers think pullouts are more secure than throw outs?....rm