jacketsdb23 49 #1 July 14, 2006 For those of you on the Norcal Yahoo skydiving list this thread may be very familiar. But since I had to make a decision recently pertaining to this very question, I thought i'd revisit the situation. I bought a rig with a used cypres but unfortunately the rig was delivered without it. I am in the process of getting it delivered but it won't be here until the weekend is over at least. The container is brand new and I'm really excited to jump it (downsizing). My reserve was just delivered and I made the decision to pack up the reserve without the cypres and I'll just put it in when it arrives. I will be switching my main over to the new container tomorrow and I'll be jumping without the cypres. I've never made a jump without one but in my mind, I NEVER have one anyway. Now, I could jump my old rig all weekend that has the cypres. But faced with the decision a week of jumping without it doesn't bother me a whole bunch. I will think twice before jumping in certain situation however...i.e. I will probably limit my freefly jumps to one or two people with plenty of experience. No first timers. Having a very low amount of jumps myself I more likely will stay on my belly the entire time i'm jumping without the cypres. anyway, just curious as to the decision you would make. Would you/ do you jump without a cypres? Have a fun weekend and be safe out there! Blue Skies MarcelLosers make excuses, Winners make it happen God is Good Beer is Great Swoopers are crazy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tdog 0 #2 July 15, 2006 I jump every jump as if I do not have an AAD... I would not jump without an AAD personally... I jump with a bunch of friends who don't have AADs and have never had a problem... I jump with a few people who had two out AAD fires... I have seen one person last year who was (probably) saved by his AAD on a solo jump... I was on a jump where the AAD caused two out due to a very low pull of the main - and the person died in a downplane. This should be a 100% personal educated decision... You should know the risks and rewards and make the decision based upon what your heart tells you is the right decision and the amount and type of risks you want to add to a jump. Jumping with an AAD adds risk... Jumping without adds risk... Which is the type of risk YOU want to accept? I can't wait to watch this thread because the flames are about ready to fly... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SWATcop 0 #3 July 15, 2006 Me personally I would jump it without the Cypress, I have 169 of my jumps without a Cypress, RSL or AAD of any kind. You are jumping without an AAD not without a reserve. Just remember if you don't pull something you don't get a parachute.Kevin Muff Brother #4041 Team Dirty Sanchez #467 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BlueSBDeath 2 #4 July 15, 2006 Know the risks, make the call, think about what you are doing, think about what your jump buddies are doing, protect yourself at all times!!! All AADs are man made, they may fail to work correct before, during, or after any given jump. Do you drive without an airbag, license, seat belt, or after a beer?? Which has more opportunities to cause death for you, jumping or driving your car?? We each must do the mental math, I know the risks, sometimes my math is bad, but I take my chances, on the road and in the air. I jump a NON-AAD rig (20+ years) and ride a Harley. Your call, we will still respect your decision, but it is your decision!! ArvelBSBD...........Its all about Respect, USPA#-7062, FB-2197, Outlaw 499 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #5 July 15, 2006 That is a call you have to make. I have two rigs. One with, and one without an AAD. I jump either, but if I have a choice I jump the AAD equiped rig. There are several reasons, the rig is new, the canopy is new, the reserve is new. But I chose to put the AAD in the rig I would jump more for a reason. I have well over 500 jumps with no AAD, and over 3,000 without an RSL. But if you have a rig sitting there with an AAD in it...I'd jump it over the non AAD rig. I however, would not let not having an AAD prevent me from jumping, and I would not let having an AAD let me do things I would not do without one."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CloudOnMyTongue 0 #6 July 15, 2006 Think of what your Mom would say if something happen's to you that could of been prevented with an AAD. An AAD that you left sitting on the ground.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 5 #7 July 15, 2006 Here's my take as someone who recently changed my mind about an AAD... First, my opinion is if you won't jump a rig without an AAD, you might want to re-think skydiving at all. However...had a premature container opening a while back due to a loose bridle, as I was setting up for a launched exit. My helmet slammed into the plane so hard, it left blue paint on the helmet and left me unconscious or at the least, completely unaware of anything until I was around 7500 feet AGL. We got out of the aircraft at 12,700. Fortunately I was under a good canopy. Once I started thinking about all the things that were wrong with the jump (I was demo'ing a canopy that was in a student rig, I was doing a launched exit, so two strikes against me right there), and I realized that the AAD would have potentially saved my life if I'd been knocked out and no canopy out. In that glide down, once I realized all the dumb things I'd done, one of them wasn't that I'd turned on the AAD on the student rig. So, whilst I'm very willing and able to feel good about jumping a rig that doesn't have an AAD, I also know that I can be kicked in the head by someone's boot, hit hard in any kind of RW dive, weirdness at the exit, whatever...so I'm happy to have at least one facet of the odds stacked slightly more in my favor. But I'd never, ever jump thinking "this thing is gonna save my life." If you'd asked me 5 mins before that jump how I felt about AADs and helmets...you'd have gotten a different answer than what I'm offering now. All in all...I feel they're worth it for *most* skydivers. If you're riding under a small canopy, and/or are a fast pilot, you might want to re-think having one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CSpenceFLY 1 #8 July 15, 2006 Talk about a dead horse.If you would not jump without one you maybe should not be jumping at all.Do you really thing you needed to make this post?Want to borrow my third round pencil pack? . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CSpenceFLY 1 #9 July 15, 2006 After reading the post above mine I will add"I jump with one" the rest of my post still stands.If you won't jump without one you maybe should not be jumping. . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #10 July 15, 2006 With 110 jumps you jump a main loaded at 1.32:1 but are worried about going without an AAD for a couple of jumps. Read the fatality reports and see what decision is more likely to kill youMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jheadley 0 #11 July 15, 2006 If you look at the CYPRES save list you'll see that most (about 75%) of the saves are not from the person being unconscious, but from losing altitude awareness, or not handling a mal properly. My personal thoughts : If AADs had never been invented, I'd still jump, but since they have been, I will take that extra safety backup and use it. I think it'd be silly not to. I know this analogy has been used a million times before, but I've been in a car for probably over 100,000 miles and have never been in an accident, but I still wear my seat belt on every trip. You never know if/when you'll need it. Not wearing a seat belt/ not using an AAD doesn't directly make a car trip/skydive more dangerous, but if something does go wrong, it'd be nice to have. It'd be terrible to go in because you didn't pull and only had your AAD out of your rig for a little while. During the Belize boogie, a guy went in when he was unable to pull, and he usually jumped with an AAD but had taken it out just before so he could do a water jump. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Airman1270 0 #12 July 15, 2006 What they said... Make the jumps & use your head. I haven't used an AAD since 1984 when I was about two-thirds of the way through my student training. I had about 40-ish jumps and made a long solo delay, my first without the AAD and my first while wearing sneakers. (At the time, students wore jump boots.) I understand your concern, as I remember diving off the Cessna step knowing that I HAD to pull something. It was a real confidence builder. Nothing wrong with having an AAD, but it saddens me to hear people say they won't jump without one. Cheers, Jon S. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tbrown 26 #13 July 15, 2006 Seems like you won't have to wait too long to get the Cypres, so why not just wait another week for it to show up and get it and your reserve all packed up at once. Because even with the same rigger and even if he doesn't need to take your reserve out of the freebag, he's still going to charge you for opening the container, installing the AAD, and then closing everything back up again. I've made over 500 jumps without an AAD back in the seventies. Back then AADs were not considered reliable enough for wearing in the air with a lot of other people around (too many premature openings). The thing about an AAD is that it will never tell you on the box WHICH jump is the one you will need it. Nobody ever goes sailing out the door thinking "This is the jump where my Cypres will save my ass". In all likelihood, the odds are overwhelmingly in your favor and you'll be just fine without it. So if you just gotta jump the new rig, go for it and pay your rigger more in the end, he'll appreciate the extra business. I use a Cypres and a RSL. Being married with kids, it adds to my family's peace of mind that Dad has a "magic gadget" that will save his ass if he fucks up. I understand the real limitations of both devices, and other than turning my cypres on in the morning I forget the thing's even there and jump as if it's not there. Finally, and this is for the record,telling people "If you can't jump without an AAD you shouldn't be jumping" is a bunch of macho bullshit. Go to skydivingmovies.com and watch piisfish's little adventure where he got all wrapped up on his camera site. The guy lived because he has a Cypres. Watch that video and put yourself in his place and think about what you'd have done. Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MarkM 0 #14 July 15, 2006 Quote I will think twice before jumping in certain situation however...i.e. I will probably limit my freefly jumps to one or two people with plenty of experience. No first timers. Having a very low amount of jumps myself I more likely will stay on my belly the entire time i'm jumping without the cypres. If you don't feel it's safe to be in these situations without a Cypres, it isn't safe to be in them with a Cypres. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
faulknerwn 38 #15 July 16, 2006 Quote Finally, and this is for the record,telling people "If you can't jump without an AAD you shouldn't be jumping" is a bunch of macho bullshit. Go to skydivingmovies.com and watch piisfish's little adventure where he got all wrapped up on his camera site. The guy lived because he has a Cypres. Watch that video and put yourself in his place and think about what you'd have done. I'm not even sure of the situation in question - but unless his hands were tied up - he could have saved himself by pulling a reserve - just like the vast majority of Cypres fires. A Cypres will save you from your own stupidity - but what worries me more on the original post is how much he will change his jumping for the weekend without the Cypres - I have nothing against the Cypres - I think that AADs are a great inventions - but I truly think if you won't do the jump without the Cypres - you're not ready to be doing it with it... W Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georgerussia 0 #16 July 16, 2006 Quote Talk about a dead horse.If you would not jump without one you maybe should not be jumping at all. Could you say the same about reserve? Basically if you do _everything_ right, you would never need it, correct? The only difference I see in reserve vs AAD that it looks like there are much more places where you screw things up, and need a reserve than with AAD.* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squeak 17 #17 July 16, 2006 QuoteAfter reading the post above mine I will add"I jump with one" the rest of my post still stands.If you won't jump without one you maybe should not be jumping. . I think thats probably the dumbest statement perpetuating on this forum. at my DZ you will not be jumping without an AAD wether you want to or not. Some people see them as integral pieces of equipement, making blanket statements like this is pointless and dumb JMOYou are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #18 July 16, 2006 QuoteMy helmet slammed into the plane so hard, it left blue paint on the helmet and left me unconscious or at the least, completely unaware of anything until I was around 7500 feet AGL. This is what that same aircraft looked like after something hit the tail a few years ago.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BlueSBDeath 2 #19 July 17, 2006 "at my DZ you will not be jumping without an AAD" Another reason to NOT go to "Gay-stralia" Just kidding, AAD's, airbags, seatbealts, and staying on the couch saves lives every second!! Drink Beer, Smoke Pot, Stay Home!! Arvel (I know that was of no use to anyone)BSBD...........Its all about Respect, USPA#-7062, FB-2197, Outlaw 499 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squeak 17 #20 July 17, 2006 Quote"at my DZ you will not be jumping without an AAD" Another reason to NOT go to "Gay-stralia" Arvel (I know that was of no use to anyone) Dont assume you're welcomeYou are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Elisha 1 #21 July 17, 2006 So, did you survive the weekend? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CSpenceFLY 1 #22 July 17, 2006 QuoteQuoteAfter reading the post above mine I will add"I jump with one" the rest of my post still stands.If you won't jump without one you maybe should not be jumping. . I think thats probably the dumbest statement perpetuating on this forum. at my DZ you will not be jumping without an AAD wether you want to or not. Some people see them as integral pieces of equipement, making blanket statements like this is pointless and dumb JMO Maybe you should go back and read the first post.At least I was able to give my opinion without an insult.Since I'm not allowed to say s****d f****r on here anymore I'll end my post now.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #23 July 17, 2006 QuoteFinally, and this is for the record,telling people "If you can't jump without an AAD you shouldn't be jumping" is a bunch of macho bullshit. Go to skydivingmovies.com and watch piisfish's little adventure where he got all wrapped up on his camera site. The guy lived because he has a Cypres. Where was his left hand? I don't think its macho BS to think that if your mental state is that you will only jump with an AAD that you might be fooling yourself into thinking that you will be safe."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 5 #24 July 17, 2006 Was that at Hill? And yes, that's the color of blue that was etched into my Bonehead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jacketsdb23 49 #25 July 17, 2006 QuoteSo, did you survive the weekend? So everything went great. Jumped the new rig and had a blast. Its interesting to get everyone's take on the situation. Didn't stick to my original game plan and actually made some freefly jumps. Basically didn't change anything about the jumps I made. It will be nice to get the cypres in for sure but didn't cause much of a problem.Losers make excuses, Winners make it happen God is Good Beer is Great Swoopers are crazy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
