rider13 0 #1 July 27, 2004 Well unfortualy on my 2nd jump I flared too high then caught an updraft and then just droped to the ground. THe end result is a broken ankle. After this happend I was told I could have put my toggles half way up and then flared hard again. Any other suggestions to how to avoid this in the future. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #3 July 27, 2004 Firstly you should sit down with your instructor(s) or your S&TA and talk about canopy control, specifically flaring and low altitude maneuvers. It is true that you can *slowly* let up your flare if you're too high, the trick is, if you quickly let the toggles up, the canopy will dive. Also it will take a moment for the canopy to recover from this action and it can result in not enough time for a proper flare (read: you'll hit the ground HARD). You should also go do some jumps where you play with your flare and stalling the canopy (above 2500ft, atleast, ideally you'll do a clear and pull at altitude to truely play with your canopy). You'll learn what the canopy feels like during these maneuvers and you'll also know what it feels like using different recovery methods. You can usually hold the flare (outside of getting into a stall) and finish the flare when you're at the proper altitude. Infact, if you're at a USPA GM DZ and they're following the recommended student progression laid out in the SIM, then you'll have to fly your pattern and landing in 1/2 brakes before you get your license anyways. Lastly, a canopy control course such as the ones by Brian Germain and Scott Miller are a good thing to do, furthermore, it might be a good idea to read Brian Germain's new book about canopy control. Good luck, safe landings and remember to be prepaired to PLF (and use it!)--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rider13 0 #4 July 27, 2004 I did plf however it was the inital impact that caused a spiral fracture in the ankle. Thanks for the links and the info Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lindsey 0 #5 July 27, 2004 That sucks. Don't beat yourself up over it, though. Just try to learn something so that when you're healed you'll avoid the same mistake. It's not as much about timing as it is about finesse....lol. You'll get it. I've lost it, but we'll both get it back. Hang in there. It sucks to have a broken ankle though..... Peace~ linz-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nightjumps 1 #6 July 27, 2004 One gauge for future reference is to maintain your eyes at approximately 45 degrees to the line of flight. Many new skydivers have a tendency to look at the ground as they get closer to it, follow it till its between their feet and get target fixation. As they fly over it, they think, "I'm there' and flare. Keep your eyes fixed on the angle and not the ground. Then when you've reached the appropriate height, the key is to meet your toggle down presure with the rate of speed that the ground is coming up. If the ground is coming up slowly, pull your toggles down slowly; if its coming up fast, then match the faster rate equally. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bch7773 0 #7 July 27, 2004 I don't understand what happened... you flared too high, held the flare, and an updraft caught you and caused you to drop?? I'm just guessing, but i think that maybe instead of an updraft, the canopy stalled... that would cause it to just drop straight down. how high did you flare intially? MB 3528, RB 1182 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Push 0 #8 July 27, 2004 How strong was the wind? This sounds exactly like a full flare in a high wind day. You don't flare fully in high winds. Usually, you need to flare very very little. A strong flare in high winds will lift you up and drop you when your canopy runs out of airspeed. -- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cacophony 0 #9 July 27, 2004 QuoteThis sounds exactly like a full flare in a high wind day. You don't flare fully in high winds. Usually, you need to flare very very little. I don't agree with that. Its not the fact that you are doing a full flare, its more of how you flare. Students seem to have a tendency, whether its because they are taught or its how they do it, to flare in one fast big motion. A slower more progressive flare will reduce the likely-hood of your canopy popping up. The problem is that if you teach that to a student they probably won't flare at all or very little. Definately talk to some instructors at your DZ and have them help you with some good flaring techniques. We here at the forums can give you some advice but we can't see your landings. Your instructors can and will be able to provide more insight into your skills. PLF!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rider13 0 #10 July 27, 2004 That could be. I remember flaring feeling the canopy come to a stop then lift and drop. I talked to the jump master he said I flared about 3-4 seconds to soon. The wind was calm on the ground and it was hot. Also my first jump was with winds at 15 mph and this jump the winds were defently not that fast. When they trained us they said to flare hard which is probably not what I should have done at this point. This being myh 2nd jump I had a jump M on the radio telling me when to flare however I flared before he told me to. I will defently work on flaring tech when I am able to jump again. The shitty part is this years season will be done by the time I can jump again. The good news is I can save cash for next season. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyyhi 0 #11 July 27, 2004 Aggie Dave, love your advice. . .always instructional. As a newbie in the sport, I will not attempt to teach. . .I will say that learning to do 2-stage flares helped me to learn to judge when I needed to flare. Also, the advice on not looking at the ground directly below me but out at the horizon really helped also. Since this was only your second jump, you really should go out to the dz and talk with your instructors. They know you and will have the best advice for you. Good luck in your healing process and get back in the air as soon as you can ( with your docs permission of course).________________________________________ Take risks not to escape life… but to prevent life from escaping. ~ A bumper sticker at the DZ FGF #6 Darcy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 16 #12 July 29, 2004 I don't agree with that. Its not the fact that you are doing a full flare, its more of how you flare. Students seem to have a tendency, whether its because they are taught or its how they do it, to flare in one fast big motion. QuoteBoy, isn't that the truth. I've trained a lot and radio controlled a lot of students, and you just never really know what you're going to get when you say "Ready, Set, Flare." I think a two stage flare is the best to teach, but it hasn't been adopted at my DZ. ( Ready, Set, Half Brakes . . Flare). In the meantime, some will popup on flare, some will hesitate or half flare, plowing large amounts of real estate with their butts. Ahhhh, what's an Instructor to do? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masher 1 #13 July 30, 2004 QuoteBoy, isn't that the truth. I've trained a lot and radio controlled a lot of students, and you just never really know what you're going to get when you say "Ready, Set, Flare." I think a two stage flare is the best to teach, but it hasn't been adopted at my DZ. ( Ready, Set, Half Brakes . . Flare). In the meantime, some will popup on flare, some will hesitate or half flare, plowing large amounts of real estate with their butts. Ahhhh, what's an Instructor to do? Non-instructor talking here.... Teach them to flare better. TA them better. Teach them the three/two stage flare. When they come in on finals, go to batons for their toggle movements. When they about to land, it's "hands up" "feet together". You siganl this by pushing your hands up in the air (holding the batons) and clicking your heels together. As they come into land, you bring your hands to about 45deg. This is "flare one". The student pulls their hands straight down to about eye level, not jerky, but in one fluid movement. They don't bring their hands out as a mirror to yours; your hands go out to provide maximum visibility. Closer to the ground, you bring your hands straight out from your sides. This is "flare two". The student brings their hands to about armpit level. They don't bring their hands out as a mirror to yours; your hands go out to provide maximum visibility. Just before touchdown, if necessary, your hands go down another 45deg. This is "flare three". The student brings the toggles to full arm extension. With a bit of luck, the student will follow your commands instead of deciding that the ground is going too fast and they want to stop. That's how my DZ does it anyway....-- Arching is overrated - Marlies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Cacophony 0 #14 August 4, 2004 QuoteWhen they come in on finals, go to batons for their toggle movements. Are there a lot of dropzones that use this technique? It doesn't seem like that would teach anyone how to judge their flare correctly because they are constantly looking out towards the horizon. Plus, student canopies don't have as powerful of a flare as a typical sport canopy because of the low wingloading and basic design. It requires a deeper flare to get it to slow down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites firstime 0 #15 August 4, 2004 this flare thing has always been an issue. I have 76 jumps and 40 or so have been sweet. I went for the Scott Miller jump class at crosskeys and it gave me a tremendous understanding of canopy flight. My landings have gotten better since that class but I still dont stand them all up. If I do 4 jumps in a day, my last jump is super sweet. In my view, it comes with numbers. We are given the basics but you gotta do over and over again. I aint ashamed of doing a good old plf. One of these days Im gonna win the hit & chug as I tumble past the mean Green. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masher 1 #16 August 4, 2004 The idea being to get them to survive their first few jumps. The ground is rushing up on me, lets pull the toggles to slow it down, oh no I've stalled it at 30 ft, now my back/legs/ankles are fucked. They aren't looking at the horizon, they're looking at the TA. which should be fairly closeish. The student canopies that we use are safire 220s and PA 270s.-- Arching is overrated - Marlies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnMitchell 16 #17 August 4, 2004 I agree with a 2 stage flare, and I've used the "batons" method to land students, but if you reread my earlier post, you'll see that I lament that my DZ has not adopted it. I work at a large DZ where you must teach what the management decides for the syllabus. To not do that will confuse the students. We occasionally change it around, but every instructor has to be told. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masher 1 #18 August 5, 2004 reread, and understood :) I understand about not confusing your students. I take it that you've tried to change it...?-- Arching is overrated - Marlies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnMitchell 16 #19 August 5, 2004 Nope, I'm too low on the totem pole to get that changed at my DZ. I start introducing the two stage flare to new jumpers off student status that are still having trouble landing their canopies. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Cacophony 0 #20 August 6, 2004 QuoteI aint ashamed of doing a good old plf Preach it brotha. I still get in one of those every now and then. One of the best survival skills you can have. I've known way too many people that hurt themselves simply because they didn't do one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tomzoom 0 #21 August 6, 2004 Preach it brotha. I still get in one of those every now and then. One of the best survival skills you can have. I've known way too many people that hurt themselves simply because they didn't do one. Amen, ALex! I have been wondering which thread that I should use to post my recent experience with not doing a PLF when it was called for. I am 30 days post-surgery for a ruptured quadricep tendon, and will not be able to jump for another month yet, probably. I had no problem with my flare; I landed long on my 24th jump; it was into a pea patch, with the rows running perpendicular to my flight path. My forward motion had ceased upon touchdown, and I guess that I was so elated that I was finally going to stand one up, that I forgot that I should PLF due to the uneven ground. My bad! How I ended up long is another story altogether, and I am reading all sorts of info on patterns, etc. so as not to repear that mistake. Thanks Rider13 for your story, and thanks to you AggieDave for the lead on Brian Germain's new book. I will get it.-------------------------------------------------- "If you can't find it, you may as well not have it!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Squeak 17 #22 August 8, 2004 QuoteQuoteWhen they come in on finals, go to batons for their toggle movements. Are there a lot of dropzones that use this technique? Quite a few that's how I learned also it works well. QuoteIt doesn't seem like that would teach anyone how to judge their flare correctly because they are constantly looking out towards the horizon. . When you are approaching the JM is ussually quite a distance in fron so the student is looking forward NOT down, it also serves to let students know that the flare is not a rushed thing, but a controlled one that has phases to it. Having said that I've had to rush a few flares befrfoeYou are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masher 1 #23 August 9, 2004 QuoteHaving said that I've had to rush a few flares befrfoe hee hee A bit like my "thud flare" jump... :)-- Arching is overrated - Marlies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
masher 1 #13 July 30, 2004 QuoteBoy, isn't that the truth. I've trained a lot and radio controlled a lot of students, and you just never really know what you're going to get when you say "Ready, Set, Flare." I think a two stage flare is the best to teach, but it hasn't been adopted at my DZ. ( Ready, Set, Half Brakes . . Flare). In the meantime, some will popup on flare, some will hesitate or half flare, plowing large amounts of real estate with their butts. Ahhhh, what's an Instructor to do? Non-instructor talking here.... Teach them to flare better. TA them better. Teach them the three/two stage flare. When they come in on finals, go to batons for their toggle movements. When they about to land, it's "hands up" "feet together". You siganl this by pushing your hands up in the air (holding the batons) and clicking your heels together. As they come into land, you bring your hands to about 45deg. This is "flare one". The student pulls their hands straight down to about eye level, not jerky, but in one fluid movement. They don't bring their hands out as a mirror to yours; your hands go out to provide maximum visibility. Closer to the ground, you bring your hands straight out from your sides. This is "flare two". The student brings their hands to about armpit level. They don't bring their hands out as a mirror to yours; your hands go out to provide maximum visibility. Just before touchdown, if necessary, your hands go down another 45deg. This is "flare three". The student brings the toggles to full arm extension. With a bit of luck, the student will follow your commands instead of deciding that the ground is going too fast and they want to stop. That's how my DZ does it anyway....-- Arching is overrated - Marlies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cacophony 0 #14 August 4, 2004 QuoteWhen they come in on finals, go to batons for their toggle movements. Are there a lot of dropzones that use this technique? It doesn't seem like that would teach anyone how to judge their flare correctly because they are constantly looking out towards the horizon. Plus, student canopies don't have as powerful of a flare as a typical sport canopy because of the low wingloading and basic design. It requires a deeper flare to get it to slow down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
firstime 0 #15 August 4, 2004 this flare thing has always been an issue. I have 76 jumps and 40 or so have been sweet. I went for the Scott Miller jump class at crosskeys and it gave me a tremendous understanding of canopy flight. My landings have gotten better since that class but I still dont stand them all up. If I do 4 jumps in a day, my last jump is super sweet. In my view, it comes with numbers. We are given the basics but you gotta do over and over again. I aint ashamed of doing a good old plf. One of these days Im gonna win the hit & chug as I tumble past the mean Green. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masher 1 #16 August 4, 2004 The idea being to get them to survive their first few jumps. The ground is rushing up on me, lets pull the toggles to slow it down, oh no I've stalled it at 30 ft, now my back/legs/ankles are fucked. They aren't looking at the horizon, they're looking at the TA. which should be fairly closeish. The student canopies that we use are safire 220s and PA 270s.-- Arching is overrated - Marlies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 16 #17 August 4, 2004 I agree with a 2 stage flare, and I've used the "batons" method to land students, but if you reread my earlier post, you'll see that I lament that my DZ has not adopted it. I work at a large DZ where you must teach what the management decides for the syllabus. To not do that will confuse the students. We occasionally change it around, but every instructor has to be told. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masher 1 #18 August 5, 2004 reread, and understood :) I understand about not confusing your students. I take it that you've tried to change it...?-- Arching is overrated - Marlies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnMitchell 16 #19 August 5, 2004 Nope, I'm too low on the totem pole to get that changed at my DZ. I start introducing the two stage flare to new jumpers off student status that are still having trouble landing their canopies. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Cacophony 0 #20 August 6, 2004 QuoteI aint ashamed of doing a good old plf Preach it brotha. I still get in one of those every now and then. One of the best survival skills you can have. I've known way too many people that hurt themselves simply because they didn't do one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tomzoom 0 #21 August 6, 2004 Preach it brotha. I still get in one of those every now and then. One of the best survival skills you can have. I've known way too many people that hurt themselves simply because they didn't do one. Amen, ALex! I have been wondering which thread that I should use to post my recent experience with not doing a PLF when it was called for. I am 30 days post-surgery for a ruptured quadricep tendon, and will not be able to jump for another month yet, probably. I had no problem with my flare; I landed long on my 24th jump; it was into a pea patch, with the rows running perpendicular to my flight path. My forward motion had ceased upon touchdown, and I guess that I was so elated that I was finally going to stand one up, that I forgot that I should PLF due to the uneven ground. My bad! How I ended up long is another story altogether, and I am reading all sorts of info on patterns, etc. so as not to repear that mistake. Thanks Rider13 for your story, and thanks to you AggieDave for the lead on Brian Germain's new book. I will get it.-------------------------------------------------- "If you can't find it, you may as well not have it!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masher 1 #18 August 5, 2004 reread, and understood :) I understand about not confusing your students. I take it that you've tried to change it...?-- Arching is overrated - Marlies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 16 #19 August 5, 2004 Nope, I'm too low on the totem pole to get that changed at my DZ. I start introducing the two stage flare to new jumpers off student status that are still having trouble landing their canopies. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cacophony 0 #20 August 6, 2004 QuoteI aint ashamed of doing a good old plf Preach it brotha. I still get in one of those every now and then. One of the best survival skills you can have. I've known way too many people that hurt themselves simply because they didn't do one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tomzoom 0 #21 August 6, 2004 Preach it brotha. I still get in one of those every now and then. One of the best survival skills you can have. I've known way too many people that hurt themselves simply because they didn't do one. Amen, ALex! I have been wondering which thread that I should use to post my recent experience with not doing a PLF when it was called for. I am 30 days post-surgery for a ruptured quadricep tendon, and will not be able to jump for another month yet, probably. I had no problem with my flare; I landed long on my 24th jump; it was into a pea patch, with the rows running perpendicular to my flight path. My forward motion had ceased upon touchdown, and I guess that I was so elated that I was finally going to stand one up, that I forgot that I should PLF due to the uneven ground. My bad! How I ended up long is another story altogether, and I am reading all sorts of info on patterns, etc. so as not to repear that mistake. Thanks Rider13 for your story, and thanks to you AggieDave for the lead on Brian Germain's new book. I will get it.-------------------------------------------------- "If you can't find it, you may as well not have it!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squeak 17 #22 August 8, 2004 QuoteQuoteWhen they come in on finals, go to batons for their toggle movements. Are there a lot of dropzones that use this technique? Quite a few that's how I learned also it works well. QuoteIt doesn't seem like that would teach anyone how to judge their flare correctly because they are constantly looking out towards the horizon. . When you are approaching the JM is ussually quite a distance in fron so the student is looking forward NOT down, it also serves to let students know that the flare is not a rushed thing, but a controlled one that has phases to it. Having said that I've had to rush a few flares befrfoeYou are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masher 1 #23 August 9, 2004 QuoteHaving said that I've had to rush a few flares befrfoe hee hee A bit like my "thud flare" jump... :)-- Arching is overrated - Marlies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
