Risers in, should I cut-away before reserve pull

[pierre3636 0]

I had a discussion with some of my freefly coaches this weekend after a full day of jumping. Two much more experienced jumpers gave the advice that during a high speed mal where the main risers are still tucked in it is advisable to rather not cut away (because there is nothing to cut-away) before pulling the reserve handle. This would lower the risk of the main bag / lines / canopy getting tangled in the reserve. Is this sound advice? Would you do the same? It does seem logical but I think making those kind of disicions only come once you have more malfunction experience.

stywe lyne

dfl.

~ time is ~ time was ~ times past ~

[speedy 0]

If there's not enough drag to clear the riser covers then there is probably not enough drag to for the risers to separate after cutting away.

Once the reserved is pulled, there is less pressure on the main container. I have heard that this may cause the main to deploy in certain circumstances. If the main does deploy as the reserve is deploying I wonder whether it is better cut away or still attached.

I will cut away and pull the reserve even in a high speed mal. Using the same procedure means I don't have different actions to take with different mals. True I may spend extra time cutting away when it's not necessary, but I intend to execute my E.P.'s at an altitude that permits this time.

I have seen a video from a camera guy who dumped and nothing happened. He cut away and pulled silver. Upon looking up he saw to his horror that his main was entangled in his reserve. He started praying and his prayer was answered. The main freed it's self and drifted away. Of course I don't know what would have happened had he not cutaway. Hint: when flying camera suits, throwing you pilot chute into you burble is not a good thing to do.

Dave

Fallschirmsport Marl

[skaterboi 0]

"I have heard that this may cause the main to deploy in certain circumstances. "

I hav heard this as well. The pressure of the reserve popping opening the main which then actually heightens the risk of entanglement.

I think the best way of prevention here would be to stick to the recommended pulling altitudes so that if you cut away a stale main you can struggle the main clear of you burble (if its possible).

dfl.

~ times is * time was * times past ~

[EricTheRed 0]

Mine wasn't on video but I had a bad lock that didnt have enough drag to release the risers when I cut away. My reserve fired into the mess and the reserve PC got fouled in main bridle.
It cleared when either the reserve bridle or reserve PC added anough drag to the mess to pull it off my back.

illegible usually

[ManBird 0]

Quote

Once the reserved is pulled, there is less pressure on the main container. I have heard that this may cause the main to deploy in certain circumstances. If the main does deploy as the reserve is deploying I wonder whether it is better cut away or still attached.

Well, hear it again. This happened to me on a PC in tow. I pulled both handles simultaneously. I then immediately popped my riser covers and gave my 3-rings a "stroke" from top to bottom -- not to detach the risers completely, but to make for a cleaner breakaway should the main container open, which it did. Whether to chop or not is simply a matter of whether or not you are comfortable with a two-out situation. I, personally, am not.

I think the release of pressure off the main container combined with the drag of a pilot chute is enough to open the container (with the exception of a misrouted bridle). However, if NOTHING is out, then chances are that nothing will ever be out (impossipull, lost handle, or a PUD in tow for those who still use those). Even with the reserve out of the container, there is no force to extract the pin. I've been in this situation, too. I just went straight to reserve and the main container stayed closed (though I was ready to catch the d-bag with the tail of my wingsuit -- the PC was VERY stuck).

My 2¢.

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

Click

[Samurai136 0]

The advice is sound.

A high speed malfunction when the container is closed; I would go straight to the reserve. Pulling the cutaway handle does nothing. The 3 rings do not function until they are loaded. i.e. the container is open and Pilot chute is draging a bag lock or the canopy is out of the bag.

The only conditions I can think of that would cause the main container to open after a reserve activation in a high speed malfunction are an uncocked p/c or worn out P/c that's not pulling the pin. Take care of your gear.
If you do cutaway before the reserve activation the 3-rings may pop loose as the reserve risers (which are under the main risers) are pulled to line stretch. This can happen even if the container stays closed thru the reserve deployment. Now you have the loose ends of the main risers which could potentially entangle w/ the reserve risers/ lines. In this scenario if the main comes out it's already entangled w/ the reserve.

If you don't cutaway you'll either have:
1. Good reserve activation
2. 2-out, which is still pretty good
3. main-reserve entanglement

If you do cut away you'll either have:
1. Good reserve activation
2. main-reserve entanglement

Going straight to the reserve in a closed container highspeed malfuction has only a 1 in 3 possibile outcome of entanglement. Cutting away lowers the possible outcomes to 1 in 2 being an entanglement.

It's a gamble either way.

Ken

"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken

[sundevil777 102]

In my opinion, there are a lot of very uninformed opinions
that have been offered so far in this thread. That is to say, bad advice.

For a much more intelligent discussion, try this thread (of course my posts are the only ones you need pay attention :

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=598018;search_string=army;#598018

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[crutch 0]

My two cents worth. I have had this experience twice, the first time almost cost me my life, so the second time came out better. The first one was on my sixth jump, pilot chute in tow, was taught to always cut-away first. Guess what, the lines of the reserve entangled with the risers from the main, which deployed upon openning shock. Two out with the entanglement out of my reach, all I can say is the man upstairs wasn't ready for me yet. The second time, I skipped the cut-away, the main deployed on the reserve's openning shock, but since the three rings were not released, I just ended up with a two out situation with the main clear enough to cut-away, not entangled.

So if someone asks me, if the pin is still in, skip the cut-away handle.

blue skies,

art

[Miami 0]

I teach my students to cutaway unless they have a hard pull or cannot find their handle. The chances of a main/reserve entanglement are there if you have something behind you when you fire your reserve, but you really do not know what is going on behind you, and having a main come out while your reserve is deploying will most likely be far worse if it is not already cutaway. Like most have said in previous posts...the 3 rings generally will not release when there is no load on them...and with todays riser covers they will hold cutaway main risers in place just fine.

That's just my opinion...let me try to answer your questions so you can form your own opinion...

Quote

This would lower the risk of the main bag / lines / canopy getting tangled in the reserve. Is this sound advice? Would you do the same?

If your main bag, main lines, and main canopy were in jeopardy of entangling your reserve there is plenty above your head to cutaway. In the case of a horseshoe you want to cutaway even though the entangled gear will not fully clear you to try to give it as much possibility to get itself clear of you while you pull your reserve.

If you have a situation where the container can open after you pull you reserve (malfunctioning pilot chute, misrouted bridle, grommets locked together, etc) I feel it is much better to have a main that will either fall away from you should it deploy after reserve inflation or be free to hopefully clear itself should it deploy simultaneously with your reserve...letting the freebag do it's job should the main entangle it. Not a fun position to be in but you gotta deal with what you have. If your main is still attached you run the risk of having a two out situation only if it does not collapse your reserve to begin with. No fun either but without cutting your main away you will always have another emergency to deal with should the main container open...and imagine what happens when it decides to come open at 200ft and you have a main twisting its way down the stows till it's out of the bag and begins to fly in those twists....really not a fun place to be!
Anyway...hope this helps...

Miami

[sundevil777 102]

Quote

having a main come out while your reserve is deploying will most likely be far worse if it is not already cutaway.

I believe that you are incorrect. The PD/army study does not support your conclusion. I think far too many make this conclusion based upon nothing more than what seems 'obvious'. No offense intended.

Quote

I feel it is much better to have a main that will either fall away from you should it deploy after reserve inflation or be free to hopefully clear itself should it deploy simultaneously with your reserve...letting the freebag do it's job should the main entangle it.

If the main deploys after the reserve, the freebag is already gone, not an issue in this discussion.

I really do think that this issue is one of the most important within the realm of safety and training - because there is not general agreement on the right procedure (even within the SIM).

If your main is going to deploy straight up alongside your reserve, the main PC and bag will do so whether you cutaway or not. However, I do not want the loose risers to be whipping around as they pass by the reserve.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[JohnMitchell 16]

Quote

I had a discussion with some of my freefly coaches this weekend after a full day of jumping. Two much more experienced jumpers gave the advice that during a high speed mal where the main risers are still tucked in it is advisable to rather not cut away (because there is nothing to cut-away) before pulling the reserve handle. This would lower the risk of the main bag / lines / canopy getting tangled in the reserve. Is this sound advice? Would you do the same? It does seem logical but I think making those kind of disicions only come once you have more malfunction experience.

stywe lyne

dfl.

What do you mean by a high speed mal? Is your main out and streamering? The risers will almost surely have pulled out from the covers. CUTAWAY! Now, do you possibly mean a Total Malfunction? That's where the main stays totally in the container, doesn't come out at all. Yes, it's high speed, 'cause you never leave freefall. IMO, it's best just to pull the reserve on that one. Cutting away is just a waste of time. If you have a pilot chute in tow, some say to pull the cutaway handle first. That's debatable. Careful who you listen to. Sometimes they can even tell you the right thing, but say it so confusingly as to give you the wrong impression. It takes a bit of work to be a good instructor.

[Miami 0]

No offense taken...this is just my opinion, I know others will have varied opinions.

Quote

If the main deploys after the reserve, the freebag is already gone, not an issue in this discussion.

It actually is an issue...if the main is already cutaway at this point it falls away, still in the bag, and is not an issue, but if it is not cutaway you run the risk of a main/reserve entanglement.

Quote

However, I do not want the loose risers to be whipping around as they pass by the reserve.

Me either...I agree with you that this is not the best option, but its a shitty situation to be in regardless!

Miami

[sundevil777 102]

If the main falls out of the container after opening shock (down), it will inflate slowly and can be chopped easily before it causes a problem. It is the scenario where a PC in tow clears when the reserve container opens/freebag leaves that is the important one to consider.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[billvon 3,120]

>What do you mean by a high speed mal?

The discussion over cutting away or not from a mal almost always devolves to a discussion over a PC in tow. If the main is out at all, you (of course) always cut away first. If you have a total mal (i.e. nothing at all out) it makes sense to NOT cutaway; the main will not deploy, and cutting away simply wastes time. The only valid argument to perform a cutaway on a total is that you need remember only one procedure, and if you have good riser covers, cutting away first will generally not cause you any problems.

With a PC in tow, we've already heard both arguments. If the main stays put, again, no issue either way. But if it decides to deploy as you open the reserve, then you have to decide whether you want the main to try to deploy as the same time as the reserve, or whether you want the main to try to depart past the deploying reserve. Canopy compatibility enters into this as well; if you have a radically mismatched main/reserve, you may not want to take a chance on experiencing a two-out (although Derek's experience has shown that such a configuration can be flown stably under some conditions.) One nice thing about not cutting away is that you can always do it later if the two canopies will not fly together safely.

[JohnMitchell 16]

Quote

>What do you mean by a high speed mal?

The discussion over cutting away or not from a mal almost always devolves to a discussion over a PC in tow. If the main is out at all, you (of course) always cut away first. If you have a total mal (i.e. nothing at all out) it makes sense to NOT cutaway; the main will not deploy, and cutting away simply wastes time. The only valid argument to perform a cutaway on a total is that you need remember only one procedure, and if you have good riser covers, cutting away first will generally not cause you any problems.

With a PC in tow, we've already heard both arguments. If the main stays put, again, no issue either way. But if it decides to deploy as you open the reserve, then you have to decide whether you want the main to try to deploy as the same time as the reserve, or whether you want the main to try to depart past the deploying reserve. Canopy compatibility enters into this as well; if you have a radically mismatched main/reserve, you may not want to take a chance on experiencing a two-out (although Derek's experience has shown that such a configuration can be flown stably under some conditions.) One nice thing about not cutting away is that you can always do it later if the two canopies will not fly together safely.

That still doesn't answer my question. What does he mean by a "high speed" malfunction? I define that as a streamer or bag lock. I'm not sure what he thinks it is. As far as malfuctions, same as you, I've most of them a couple of times already, and I'm still alive.

[Miami 0]

Quote

it will inflate slowly and can be chopped easily before it causes a problem.

That's not always the case.

Quote

It is the scenario where a PC in tow clears when the reserve container opens/freebag leaves that is the important one to consider.

Agreed. Personally if I found myself in this nasty situation I would rather have my main already chopped. The way I train my students reflects this as well.

Miami

[cvfd1399 0]

I wish some study would come up with the most common problems we are talking about and make a decision to put it into the sims. Out of all the malfunctions I think this requires the most thought.
IE is it totally in the bag, ok straight for reserve
is it pc in tow, cut or dont cut then reserve
cut check for cut, then reserve, if enough altitude and did not release, pull riser covers and manually "clear".

[JohnMitchell 16]

Quote

IE is it totally in the bag, ok straight for reserve.

In the interest of clarity, I think you mean to say "totally in the container" for a total malfunction. The "bag" is what you shove the canopy into, the container is the part of the backpack you then close the bag into. If that sounds picky, it's just that, as an instructor, I strive to be very exact in how I describe safety items to other people.

• Quote

[cvfd1399 0]

That is what I ment, typing it out and trying to think of what to say I used bag insetad of rig or container.

• Quote

[billvon 3,120]

> I wish some study would come up with the most common problems we
>are talking about and make a decision to put it into the sims.

You mean like have some guys go up and intentionally pack a series of PC-in-tows? I don't think that's such a good idea.

This issue is not one that is amenable to one clear-cut answer. If this study determined that 55% of the time, it's better to cut away, should that be the recommendation? I think it would be better to say that it's up to each jumper; that way you don't give advice that might kill you 45% of the time. Sometimes there's no one right answer.

[bclark 0]

In the event of a high speed total malfunction (i.e. the container is still closed) I will personally deploy my reserve without cutting away. I think the scenario people are most concerned with here is pilot chute in tow. I think you should never have a pilot chute in tow if you ensure that your pilot chute is cocked and in good shape, and that your container is not closed incorrectly.

If through some blatant error in judgement I don't do a thorough preflight inspection of my gear and I DO have a P.C. in tow, I would rather deal with a possible 2 out than a main / reserve entanglement with the main risers released. You STILL have to deal with the fact that your reserve pilot chute may entangle with your main pilot chute, but assuming it clears, I think you have more options with the main risers still attached. You can land a biplane or a side by side no problem with MOST reasonably sized, average performance canopies. Hell you have twice the square footage above your head. And if they downplane you can always chop!

THIS IS MY OPINION AND MY PLAN, if you think something else that's cool. I think either method may save your ass and if you live you did the right thing.

DO SOMETHING!