carpenter 0 #1 August 28, 2006 I recently had a toggle drop on opening. The spin was like no other I had experienced. It about knocked me out. I was seeing double, if not tripple. I have since started packing it w/out the brakes stowed just to eliviate that kind of situation. I was wondering why people still stow their brakes. Especially the guy, I can't remember the name off the top of my head, who went in on the 22sq. ft. It dropped a toggle and off to the races. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
breadhead 0 #2 August 28, 2006 I've had the same mal last year. Very violent, and very close to blackout. Anybody ever tried taking a Velocity to terminal without the brakes stowed? I'd be interested to hear. I would be reluctant to try it. Maybe the extra slack in the steering lines might cause trouble somehow (tension knots?). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kkeenan 14 #3 August 28, 2006 Quote I was wondering why people still stow their brakes. That would be a good question for you to ask the manufacturers who design the canopies to deploy with the brakes set. Most of them claim to know what they're doing. Kevin_____________________________________ Dude, you are so awesome... Can I be on your ash jump ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
faulknerwn 38 #4 August 28, 2006 I can't comment on the more extreme canopies, but I experimented with this on my Lightning a couple years back. I'd heard that canopies deploy softer without the brakes stowed. It did open softer, but my Lightning opened considerably more inconsistent - always off-heading (normally it never is) and often had line twists which is really abnormal. After a dozen or so experimental jumps I went back to stowing my brakes... W Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChrisL 2 #5 August 28, 2006 Do you want your canopy to go into full speed flight immediately upon opening? That could make for some hairly moments trying to avoid collisions. I understood that brakes are set to reduce the canopies forward speed initially.__ My mighty steed Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mostly_Harmless 0 #6 August 28, 2006 Isn't the Icarus tandem canopy deployed with no brake settings?_________________________________________ www.myspace.com/termvelocity Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AFFI 0 #7 August 28, 2006 And something else to consider, everytime a skydiver jumps with the brakes not set, a kitten dies... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
OnYourBack 0 #8 August 28, 2006 Icarus and Precision tandem mains are both packed without setting the brakes. We do stow the excess line with a rubber band at the top of the center D lines though. I don't know if that is the reason but our Precisions have some pretty squirrly openings. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fpritchett64 0 #9 August 28, 2006 I read on here that some of you have had a brake come un-stowed on opening resulting in a hard and squirrelly opening. My 9th jump, still on AFF I had a brake come un-stowed on a PD 260. The opening wasn't any harder than any others I have experienced, but it was instant line twists which I couldn't recover from-at the time I didn't know a brake had come unstowed. Needless to say, I tried to untwist the lines for a brief moment before it went into a spiral, then cut away. Did anyone else have to cut-away due to a brake coming unstowed, or did I just do something wrong? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #10 August 28, 2006 Quote Did anyone else have to cut-away due to a brake coming unstowed, or did I just do something wrong? While it is possible that you had other options at your disposal to fix the problem, no one else was under that canopy that day but you. You were the one who assessed the circumstances, made a decision that you didn't believe you had a canopy that you could safely land, and (I assume) made and executed the decision to cutaway before your decision altitude. That is exactly what your instructors are trying to teach you. And yes, brake fires can cause turns/spins that are violent enough that they cannot be corrected prior to your decision altitude. I've had one. In retrospect, I can look back and say "I shoulda tried [X]" but at the time, I didn't have the problem solved by my decision altitude so I cut away. Know and respect your decision altitude ... you can try to "fix" a problem all the way into the ground. You can learn about other things you could have tried to correct a problem once you get to the ground, but if anyone tries to second guess your assessment of the situation at the time and given the knowledge and experience at your disposal at the time, tell 'em to go pound sand. "There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fpritchett64 0 #11 August 28, 2006 Once I had gotten on the ground and found the main, the DZO/S&TA inspected the main and said that was my only option, that there was nothing that I would have been able to do but cut away. Later on I spoke with an old friend Senior Rigger/Tandem Instructor with about 8000 jumps that said I had other options. You're right though, that was all I knew, and I made a decision before my decision altitude. Opening altitude on that jump was 5000 ft, and I had a reserve above my head by 3000 feet. Decision altitude at my DZ on AFF is 2500 feet Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dharma1976 0 #12 August 28, 2006 QuoteI've had the same mal last year. Very violent, and very close to blackout. Anybody ever tried taking a Velocity to terminal without the brakes stowed? I'd be interested to hear. I would be reluctant to try it. Maybe the extra slack in the steering lines might cause trouble somehow (tension knots?). I recently had the pleasure of taking over a packjob for someone who jumps a velocity...of course like an idiot I didnt check the brakes to see if they were set... then I went and jumped with the guy...it was an interesting opening to see... I wondered why he pulled lower than we had discussed, but after talking to him on the ground he said that he was wondering why his slider wasnt coming down and why it wsa dancing like crazy until he realized that he was in full flight and pumped the toggles... oops he said it was a very scary opening Davehttp://www.skyjunky.com CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #13 August 28, 2006 QuoteI read on here that some of you have had a brake come un-stowed on opening resulting in a hard and squirrelly opening. My 9th jump, still on AFF I had a brake come un-stowed on a PD 260. The opening wasn't any harder than any others I have experienced, but it was instant line twists which I couldn't recover from-at the time I didn't know a brake had come unstowed. Needless to say, I tried to untwist the lines for a brief moment before it went into a spiral, then cut away. Did anyone else have to cut-away due to a brake coming unstowed, or did I just do something wrong? It's more conmon for people with a brake fire to open into a nasty spin - even with a 200+ rectangular canopy it is shocking the first time. Many people cutaway assuming the canopy is bad. With sufficient time/altitude, it likely is recoverable with opposite rear riser or just pulling down both brakes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Reginald 0 #14 August 28, 2006 QuoteQuoteI read on here that some of you have had a brake come un-stowed on opening resulting in a hard and squirrelly opening. My 9th jump, still on AFF I had a brake come un-stowed on a PD 260. The opening wasn't any harder than any others I have experienced, but it was instant line twists which I couldn't recover from-at the time I didn't know a brake had come unstowed. Needless to say, I tried to untwist the lines for a brief moment before it went into a spiral, then cut away. Did anyone else have to cut-away due to a brake coming unstowed, or did I just do something wrong? It's more conmon for people with a brake fire to open into a nasty spin - even with a 200+ rectangular canopy it is shocking the first time. Many people cutaway assuming the canopy is bad. With sufficient time/altitude, it likely is recoverable with opposite rear riser or just pulling down both brakes. Not if he had line twists too. Otherwise I very much agree with you. ."We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slug 1 #15 August 28, 2006 While attending The LP boogie (not jumping) We were watching one of the packers (in the shade) A customer dropped his rig off and the packer requested the customer to set his own brakes. I thought this was a common courtesy to set your own brakes but the packer informed his customer that due to the different rigs & ways of stowing breaks he preferred customers to do their own to help prevent a brake fireing on opening. Info only. R.I.P. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jurgencamps 0 #16 August 29, 2006 QuoteDo you want your canopy to go into full speed flight immediately upon opening? That could make for some hairly moments trying to avoid collisions. I understood that brakes are set to reduce the canopies forward speed initially. That is not the reason, that is a side effect of it. The brakes are set to guide more air into the nose of the canopy. The stabilizers left and right and the tail (with the brakes set) trap wind (form 3 sides of a sort of a box) and will "guide" more air to the noise. There was an article about it a few years ago, but I do not remember in which magazine or on which website. Jurgen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
