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billvon 3,100
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>Only for the risk of being knocked out.
You should know that the great majority of AAD saves (90% or so) are not from "getting knocked out." They are from forgetting to pull in time. I think everyone who has an AAD thinks they will never, ever forget to pull - but statistically, that's the most likely cause for you needing one.
You should know that the great majority of AAD saves (90% or so) are not from "getting knocked out." They are from forgetting to pull in time. I think everyone who has an AAD thinks they will never, ever forget to pull - but statistically, that's the most likely cause for you needing one.
QuoteThen it goes straight off unless im donig freeflyin gor RW
I don't know for sure, but it seems that at DZ where I jump, CRW, H&P and solos represent a minorities of the jumps performed. Are you planning on not doing RW and/or RW, or do you plan on turning it on and off accordingly?
QuoteI might fuckup on a solo and lose awareness although i rely on myself to save my ass not some bit of bloody equipoment.
Better be starting saving your ass while still having enough altitude to do so.
QuoteAlthough a newbie im experienced enough to realise that attidude is dangerous -being device dependant prevent sone from taking control. so what happens when a situation where an AAd won;t save you occurs... if one can't cope well they are fucked. However the attitude of always relying on yourself would heolp .
Although a Newbie myself, I am inexperienced. AADs have saved people with hundreds, maybe thousands of jumps, and little attitude. It has also killed people with much experience and little attitude.
Yes, being device dependent is dangerous. Not being dependent and having it may help. May not. It's a personal choice, not a rule. Adn either way you go, you may be proven right, you may be proven wrong. Right is better though, me think...
"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."
QuoteYou new kids are from the video game generation - you've been trained like sheep to trust electronics without question. I watch with amusement as the new guys exit the plane when the green light comes on, without bothering to look out the door to check the spot or see if there is another airplane underneath. You new guys trust gizmos so much that you don't even bother to double-check the facts for yourself. You don't even look at the ground - you just wait for an electronic beep in your ear to tell you the alititude. You're like Pavlov's dogs: green light comes on - you respond like a robot without thinking.
Bravo.
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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.
QuoteI've only made two jumps without an AAD and I didn't feel safe.
Are you kidding me?
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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.
QuoteWould you jump without a reserve?
Yes. It might mean I pick the right equipment, but yes.
QuoteDon't go telling a student that he has no right jumping just because he wants to take advantage of the progress we've made in equipment before he gets in the airplane... Just because someone won't jump without one doesn't mean they are "RELYING" on it.
Do you really rely on your reserve? I mean how much faith can you really put in a canopy you didn't even pack?
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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.
Mike111 0
I would turn it on and off accordingly. I can certainly see the benefits of it and to be fair believe ive got in good proportion- for RW or freeflying where the chance of losing awareness/knocked out is far greater than a solo, its sensible to have one.
For a solo where there is nothing to do but look at your alti then its not necessary.
For a solo where there is nothing to do but look at your alti then its not necessary.
I always jump with one, but I don't depend on it. There are some situations in which I would (comfortably) jump without one.
Arrive Safely
John
John
QuoteI would turn it on and off accordingly. I can certainly see the benefits of it and to be fair believe ive got in good proportion- for RW or freeflying where the chance of losing awareness/knocked out is far greater than a solo, its sensible to have one.
For a solo where there is nothing to do but look at your alti then its not necessary.
Mike111,
But why turn it off? I do not understand why you turn it off.
What is the risk during those jumps that you have to turn the AAD off? I presume you don't jump a small canopy with a high wingloading and that you don't do a 450 or a 540 right before your swooplanding. So why do you switch your AAD off?
I am device dependent. I need my parachute to land safely
. The rest of the devices is just back-up. Can I jump without back-up, yes. Do I really need a goggle, a helmet, gloves, riserflaps, a reserve ...? Is it smart to leave your back-up somewhere you cannot use it? No.
BTW it is very necessary to RTFM and to understand your gear and its limitations.
I have 1500 jumps without an AAD, more than 2000 jumps with AAD.
I have one and I switch it on. Do I have a problem jumping without an AAD? No, but nevertheless I always switch my AAD on (since 2005, AAD = mandatory in Belgium).
Jurgen
jacketsdb23 49
Possible AAD save in Lodi yesterday. Not sure of all the details. Not a lot of information in the incident forum. Looks like the rare occasion of someone being knocked unconscious.
Losers make excuses, Winners make it happen
God is Good
Beer is Great
Swoopers are crazy.
God is Good
Beer is Great
Swoopers are crazy.
NWFlyer 2
QuotePossible AAD save in Lodi yesterday. Not sure of all the details. Not a lot of information in the incident forum. Looks like the rare occasion of someone being knocked unconscious on a solo hop & pop.
Added something that is relevant to anyone who thinks collisions can only happen with other jumpers.
![[:/]](/uploads/emoticons/dry.png "[:/]"){kind=small}
JohnRich 4
QuoteQuoteYou new kids are from the video game generation - you've been trained like sheep to trust electronics without question. I watch with amusement as the new guys exit the plane when the green light comes on, without bothering to look out the door to check the spot or see if there is another airplane underneath. You new guys trust gizmos so much that you don't even bother to double-check the facts for yourself. You don't even look at the ground - you just wait for an electronic beep in your ear to tell you the alititude. You're like Pavlov's dogs: green light comes on - you respond like a robot without thinking.
Bravo.
Oh my gosh - another old fuddy duddy. Haven't you heard? We're dangerous!
Oh my gosh - another old fuddy duddy. Haven't you heard? We're dangerous!
***
AND we ARE entertaining!
~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~
***
AND we ARE entertaining!
~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~
so many old veterans around, makes me want to ask more newbie questions..
Thanks KC.. I had read about that fatality
but.. how many swoopers do actually get the mentioned 36 m/s vertical speed on their swoops to cause a cypres fire.. 1%, 10%, all of them? I can understand you wouldn't take that risk on a swoop, even if it's small.
Are there other cases than swoops where modern AADs caused injuries/fatalities?
I agree that "these electronic gizmos" aren't perfect and need further development while the sport and the habits of its participants develop. But isn't that true for any part of our equipment (just think of all the "freefly-save" rig design issues)?
Sure, younger people might have less fear using electronic devices.. I remember how my granpa freaked out when he was told that he's having a pacemaker installed (no offense, granpa)
"He tried to kill me! He tried to f***ing kill me!"
QuoteSwoopers (who often do hop & pops when working on high performance landings) will turn them off because the rate of descent in their swoop can be within the firing parameters of an AAD. See this fatality for an example.
Thanks KC.. I had read about that fatality
but.. how many swoopers do actually get the mentioned 36 m/s vertical speed on their swoops to cause a cypres fire.. 1%, 10%, all of them? I can understand you wouldn't take that risk on a swoop, even if it's small.
Are there other cases than swoops where modern AADs caused injuries/fatalities?
I agree that "these electronic gizmos" aren't perfect and need further development while the sport and the habits of its participants develop. But isn't that true for any part of our equipment (just think of all the "freefly-save" rig design issues)?
Sure, younger people might have less fear using electronic devices.. I remember how my granpa freaked out when he was told that he's having a pacemaker installed (no offense, granpa
)"He tried to kill me! He tried to f***ing kill me!"
potvinj 0
I have voted "no" although I would leave it on
if I had one (the 12-yr/$1200 "rental program" really
turn-me off though)
Age: 50
Years in the sport: 15
Number of jumps: 2466
Consider this:
1) I always wear a helmet (only 2 jumps have been made without)
2) I have a audio-altimeter that beeps at 2000ft AGL to let me know whether I need to cut away
the messy canopy I have up there
3) I understand about being knocked unconcious
during RW. To me this seems to be a very, very
unlikely event - less likely it seems than dying during
the crash of a skydiving airplane
(there have been many in the last 15 yrs);
it is also MUCH less
likely than being hit on landing final by
another jumper seeking the same landing spot
4) At my DZ, most RW formations Im in are 8-ways, not 50 ways
I know that there have been lots and lots of
AAD saves - but most seem to have been happening
because of jumpers not being altitude-aware.
AADs have been saving many jumpers from themsleves!
JP
if I had one (the 12-yr/$1200 "rental program" really
turn-me off though)
Age: 50
Years in the sport: 15
Number of jumps: 2466
Consider this:
1) I always wear a helmet (only 2 jumps have been made without)
2) I have a audio-altimeter that beeps at 2000ft AGL to let me know whether I need to cut away
the messy canopy I have up there
3) I understand about being knocked unconcious
during RW. To me this seems to be a very, very
unlikely event - less likely it seems than dying during
the crash of a skydiving airplane
(there have been many in the last 15 yrs);
it is also MUCH less
likely than being hit on landing final by
another jumper seeking the same landing spot
4) At my DZ, most RW formations Im in are 8-ways, not 50 ways
I know that there have been lots and lots of
AAD saves - but most seem to have been happening
because of jumpers not being altitude-aware.
AADs have been saving many jumpers from themsleves!
JP
I have a CYPRES armed during every tandem jump I do.
I added a CYPRES to my sport rig about a month ago, pretty much just for AFF purposes. Having it aboard is still giving me the heebie-jeebies, so right now my approach is kinda dynamic. If I remember it's there, I'll turn it on before doing AFF. If it's already on, I'll leave it on for fun jumps (unless the heebie-jeebies convince me to turn it off
). Since installing it, I've made probably 10-15 jumps on my sport rig. I'd guess it's been on for 2 of them. I imagine that it'll be armed more and more often as I grow accustomed to the idea.
Blues,
Dave
I added a CYPRES to my sport rig about a month ago, pretty much just for AFF purposes. Having it aboard is still giving me the heebie-jeebies, so right now my approach is kinda dynamic. If I remember it's there, I'll turn it on before doing AFF. If it's already on, I'll leave it on for fun jumps (unless the heebie-jeebies convince me to turn it off
). Since installing it, I've made probably 10-15 jumps on my sport rig. I'd guess it's been on for 2 of them. I imagine that it'll be armed more and more often as I grow accustomed to the idea.
Blues,
Dave
"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)
(drink Mountain Dew)
Trae 1
in reply to "You new guys trust gizmos so much that you don't even bother to double-check the facts for yourself. You don't even look at the ground - you just wait for an electronic beep in your ear to tell you the alititude. You're like Pavlov's dogs: green light comes on - you respond like a robot without thinking. "
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This is too true. If you don't wear an AAD you may very well need one to protect you from people who do .
What's next... full body armour ?
Hope so
......................................................
This is too true. If you don't wear an AAD you may very well need one to protect you from people who do .
What's next... full body armour ?
Hope so
meatbomb 0
I voted for 10% or less, although, in fact, I have an AAD in my rig. 90% of my jumps these days are from 5"000ft or less, on a very highly-loaded cross-braced canopy, that I swoop to land. I have assessed the risks of having two canopies out, either at pull-time, or at swoop time, to be greater than that of my losing consciousness, or altitude awareness. The only reason I have an AAD in my rig is for when I visit DZs that force me to wear one.
For my other 10%, I also tend to leave the AAD off, unless I assess to risk to be such that it outweighs the other considerations. This means I am constantly having to assess each and every high lift that I do. I can think of 2 separate occasions (Collegiate big-ways, with me as the target, I mean base!) in the last 2 years where I have considered the risk to be worth turning on my AAD, and countless others where I have simply changed the plan, or not done the jump at all.
I am 27 (just!) and would rather jump without an AAD, doing well-planned, lower risk jumps, than do more dangerous jumps with one...(I may well be the antithesis of many of the posters above...I'm scared to jump with an AAD! )
For my other 10%, I also tend to leave the AAD off, unless I assess to risk to be such that it outweighs the other considerations. This means I am constantly having to assess each and every high lift that I do. I can think of 2 separate occasions (Collegiate big-ways, with me as the target, I mean base!) in the last 2 years where I have considered the risk to be worth turning on my AAD, and countless others where I have simply changed the plan, or not done the jump at all.
I am 27 (just!
) and would rather jump without an AAD, doing well-planned, lower risk jumps, than do more dangerous jumps with one...(I may well be the antithesis of many of the posters above...I'm scared to jump with an AAD! )---
Swoopert, CS-Aiiiiiii!
Piccies
Swoopert, CS-Aiiiiiii!
Piccies
Beer 0
QuoteI've only made two jumps without an AAD and I didn't feel safe.
I think this is what got the "relying" on the AAD thing got going here.
I may be fairly inexperienced in this sport, but if you don't feel safe without one, and don't feel like you should be in the air without one, you need some work. If you don't fly well, an AAD isn't going to make you a better jumper. It's giving you a false sense of security.
I currently don't jump with an AAD because my rig didn't come with one. The rigs I've been looking at mostly happen to not have one, so I'll probably continue to jump without one untill I start getting into dives where there are to manyy people for me to keep track of, or I have a close call(a little late at that point I know, but it's a choice).
Another issue is the cost vs. shelf life like the cypress combined with the high performance landing issues stated (which I won't be attempting for a while). There are some other options I have been considering, but hearing about issues like resetting if an altitude is held for to long, mis-fires, and the like, I'm a bit weary of which options to choose.
One of the driving factors for gettting one is for DZ's/boogies requiring them. I can understand the reasoning behind it, but don't really agree with it. If I had one I probably wouldn't care.
To use one or not to use one is a choice. Someone's reasoning for their choice makes sense to them and might not apply to you. It doesn't make that choice foolish or silly. Feeling that you can't jump without one is a diffrent animal.
Oh yeah, 26 yrs old, 69 jumps
trying not to rely on the technology to much
I'm with thte oldtimers on that oneLearn to be happy. You can't be there for anybody else in life if you can't learn to be there for yourself.
I think what Spence means, correct me if I'm wrong Spence, is that with a AAD we feel fairly safe on any jump. Without the AAD, we wouldn't tie a gag in our mouths, strap our feet to our ass, and yell "do me like a bad boy".......Well, you know. It might be hard to get stable in a situation like that........Uhhh, I gotta go!!
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