skinnyshrek 0 #26 September 20, 2006 I think you explained it john better than myself. Go arounds don't happen often, the only time is when there is a plane full of students ie level 1 affs, a few tandems. When it gets to the last tandem the spot is usually long due to students taking time in the door. Which is acceptable due to nerves and not really being familiar with anything. If go arounds happen every load then yes the pilots and dzos have a right to be pissed.http://www.skydivethefarm.com do you realize that when you critisize people you dont know over the internet, you become part of a growing society of twats? ARE YOU ONE OF THEM? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #27 September 20, 2006 QuoteSomething else to consider though, it is possible that a jumper might not feel comfortable with a spot that is in fact acceptable. The spot is good according to whom? The pilot who has an engine and will land back at the airport, or the guy that is going to be jumping out? *I* make the choice to jump or not, not the pilot. If he refuses to give me even a 180 for a new jump run and wants to land with me....fine. I'll pack up and find a new DZ. If my safety is not worth another pass at that DZ, I will find a DZ where it is."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #28 September 20, 2006 QuoteI guess you are assuming a go-around on every load...that's an extremely rare day, sir. Go-around when actually needed? Pilot's an asshat for putting $$$ above jumper safety...especially with respect to students. And the number of actually-needed go-arounds will much more likely than not be a non-issue with respect to the number loads put up in the day. Get real. Perhaps we have different points of view based on our home DZs and how often we each spot for small groups, solos and the occasional 100-way. I also think we're talking about degrees of "reasonableness" when calling for a go-around. I know my dropzone -very- well and I know that if I'm screwing around on a solo freefly jump I can exit the aircraft -miles- away and still be perfectly safe. It probably doesn't require a go-around for ME. I know that if I'm spotting for a 4-way at 10.5 or a 100-way at 16.5 there are certain parameters and conditions that have to be met in order to keep ALL of the people involved safe. I know for a fact that anything I spot I'll get back from, but 100-way trackers going away from the DZ . . . I have to take them into consideration too. That said, any member of the team or base can screw up the spot horribly if they aren't exiting within one standard deviation of the "normal" amount of time it takes to do so. I only spot, I don't give the exit count. I also know that if I'm heading toward the door and there are people (non-licensed skydivers usually) that potentially will be exiting after me I can usually call for a go-around and there is no real issues with the pilots doing them. Sometimes there -are- issues, both real and imagined. You don't have to agree with my points of view. I'm simply trying to give an insight to help you better -understand- the viewpoints of the pilots and operators.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #29 September 20, 2006 Quote The first group exits 10 seconds after green light (first sanity checking the spot and looking for planes of course), the last groups go down with the plane if they don't want to jump off. Since we started this, our economy has improved, people landing out has decreased and we get to do an extra load per day. any increase in near collisions, or people at the back shouting GO to people at the door watching airplanes below? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumpwally 0 #30 September 20, 2006 Anyone know the actual cost of a go around ?smile, be nice, enjoy life FB # - 1083 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #31 September 20, 2006 QuoteAnyone know the actual cost of a go around ? Depends on the aircraft involved, fuel burn, procedure . . . would vary from DZ to DZ. A go-around for a C-182 is going to be less expensive than a C-130. The other determining factor on whether or not it's "worth" it is how many and what type of skydivers there are left on the aircraft. A go-around for a single, experienced skydiver might not make sense, as the costs are only amortized over 1 regular jump ticket. A go-around for 2 additional tandems, might make a LOT of sense.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,109 #32 September 20, 2006 >Anyone know the actual cost of a go around ? Based purely on lost capacity, about $50 (assuming a 2 minute goaround.) You'd have to add fuel costs as well; probably another $5. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #33 September 20, 2006 Quote>Anyone know the actual cost of a go around ? Based purely on lost capacity, about $50 (assuming a 2 minute goaround.) You'd have to add fuel costs as well; probably another $5. What's the math there? Seems like lost capacity has a wide range depending on the DZ in question. A DZ that shuts down when the 30 people are tired of jumping anymore doesn't lose much. One that is capacity limited loses the most. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumpwally 0 #34 September 20, 2006 Really,,,I watched alot of sloppy loading and folks just not ready when they should be....when there is more precision in skydiving operations then i'll believe someone might be losing money untill then make a 2nd pass and continue down. Mind you i think this should be done when really needed,not for uneducated assumptions...............................smile, be nice, enjoy life FB # - 1083 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrewwhyte 1 #35 September 21, 2006 QuoteQuoteAnyone know the actual cost of a go around ? Depends on the aircraft involved, fuel burn, procedure . . . would vary from DZ to DZ. A go-around for a C-182 is going to be less expensive than a C-130. Actually what's more significant is the cost of a go around per jumper. a 2-minute go around on my DZ costs me $1.25-$2.00 per jumper depending on which plane and how full it is. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,109 #36 September 21, 2006 >What's the math there? Busy day, an otter can haul 60 people to altitude an hour. Each experienced jumper pays around $20; students a bit more. Call it $24 average. If a goaround takes two minutes, that's costing the DZO $48 in lost lift capacity. >A DZ that shuts down when the 30 people are tired of jumping anymore doesn't lose much. Right. Which is why slower DZ's don't have as much of an issue going around 2-3 times. But at Perris on a busy day, people start getting pissed if the plane has to make five jump runs (which sometimes happens.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #37 September 21, 2006 5!! passes? I remember one go around as typical during the two trips I made there, but 4 seems pretty crazy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,109 #38 September 21, 2006 > 5!! passes? Yep. A pass at 5000 for C+P's (not much extra time) a pass at 10,500 for the first 4-way team (needed a cut, so an extra minute perhaps) a CRW pass at 12,500 (two extra minutes) then two passes for the 'normal' people. That's the worst I've seen. Most days we see a max of 3 passes - a low pass for C+P's, maybe a 10.5 pass, and then one or two normal passes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bofh 0 #39 September 21, 2006 Quote any increase in near collisions, or people at the back shouting GO to people at the door watching airplanes below? I have not noticed any increase in near collisions, but the people involved usually just talk about it among themselves so it isn't so visible. But I doubt it. On most days it is six seconds between the groups and most groups take about that much time to get ready. The first group has 30 seconds of yellow (= door open at our DZ and the plane is most often on a straight approach, though still climbing) and then 10 seconds of green before they should jump. So if they don't manage to prepare in those 40 seconds, there is sometimes some GO yelling. But I don't think there's more than before. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #40 September 21, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteAnyone know the actual cost of a go around ? Depends on the aircraft involved, fuel burn, procedure . . . would vary from DZ to DZ. A go-around for a C-182 is going to be less expensive than a C-130. Actually what's more significant is the cost of a go around per jumper. a 2-minute go around on my DZ costs me $1.25-$2.00 per jumper depending on which plane and how full it is. I believe I mentioned something about that in the paragraph following the one you quoted. quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Elisha 1 #41 September 21, 2006 Quote> 5!! passes? Yep. A pass at 5000 for C+P's (not much extra time) a pass at 10,500 for the first 4-way team (needed a cut, so an extra minute perhaps) a CRW pass at 12,500 (two extra minutes) then two passes for the 'normal' people. That's the worst I've seen. Most days we see a max of 3 passes - a low pass for C+P's, maybe a 10.5 pass, and then one or two normal passes. Wow! I think 3 was the most I've seen when you put it that way...but I haven't actually been everywhere. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
