mjosparky 4 #1 October 11, 2006 After spending a few days going through the old log books and old memories I have come to the conclusion that the same stupid mistakes will be made over and over again as long as there are skydivers alive stupid enough to make them. Stories from the old timers, statistics from the past even education will not stop this phenomenon. Stupid people will continue to do stupid things no matter how many barriers of reason and common sense you placed in their way. And so I have found it is much easier to sit back and watch the carnage than to try and educate the stupid people who are convinced “They can handle it”. I think it was GravityGirl that said, “Common Sense is not that Common”. How right you are Bonnie. That’s all folks, enjoy.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squeak 17 #2 October 11, 2006 QuoteStupid people will continue to do stupid things no matter how many barriers of reason and common sense you placed in their way. That’s all folks, enjoy. It's not just Stupid people who make those mistakes, seemingly intelligent and clever people are often apt to make those same questionable choices that result in being called Stupid mistakes. As an aside is there such a thing as a clever mistake, or intelligent mistake?You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #3 October 11, 2006 Those that wish to learn and be helped will seek it, or accept it if offered. The jackasses will just keep on truckin' though. Fortunately they tend to be "tourists" in one way or another.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZigZagMarquis 9 #4 October 11, 2006 Sparky... Yes, I think to a certain degree, you are right. I gotta believe that part of your motivation in originating this thread has to do with the recent Elvi incident. Seems to be somewhat similar to the Blackford incident? You're probably thinking of others too maybe. From the outside looking in, seems the Elvi group has a bit of a problem... I'll stop there though because its another thread & Its kinda getting beat to death. I feel your pain. What irks me is some folks inability or unwillingness to see and/or admit that there's a systemic problem with their or their group's judgement or that they just did something that was stupid, but they were lucky and got away with it. Scares me the most when I see it in myself sometimes... ... One of the things that really bummed me out about skydiving was the day I realized some of the folks that I thought were "really smart" and looked up to were capable of fu*cking it up too and getting hurt or hurting someone else. Not much fun, huh? I'm not 100% sure what the take-away from that is except to always consider whether even the smallest things we do in the sport are "safe" & "makes sense" (i.e. does this exit order make sense... does this jump run make sense... why not change this closing loop to save a few minutes and make the next load instead of doing it now... etc.) Its easy to bang on someone for being a "fun sponge"and, well, some folks suck the fun out of everything because they're dicks, but others are hard-asses because they've learned the hard-way... picking the two apart is the trick, I suppose. However... all that be as it may... DiabloPilot is also correct... folks who want to learn will seak out the knowlege and / or accept it when offered. Have faith in that all. Same thing, different words, you're right, "no one is ever so good that they can't die in this sport", but at the same time, most of us aren't "too stupid to live" either. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
darkwing 5 #5 October 11, 2006 I know what you are saying, and I feel your pain. There is no person alive who has not done something stupid sometime. I try very hard to make sure it isn't when I skydive though. In about 35 years in the sport I have seen many people who might be called "stupid magnets" -- otherwise intelligent people who are prone to judgement errors. I learned a lot from them. Often it is related to showboating, which is related to testosterone usually. Often it is just not paying enough attention. So my first priorities are don't showboat, and pay attention. -- Jeff My Skydiving History Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bigway 4 #6 October 11, 2006 I love skydiving!!! What is up with all this negativity towards all the jumpers? We do stupid shit, damn straight, do you forget we jump out fo planes with rafts, space balls, on our heads, magic carpets, 400 way relative work, 54 way head down, sitting in cars, hell yes we do stupid shit and it is a hell of a lot of fun Just jumping is stupid to enough people in this world. .Karnage Krew Gear Store . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DoubleBagg 0 #7 October 11, 2006 Sparky, would you care to share some of those mistakes with us? I'm sure there are those of us that would like to avoid them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freeflysteve 0 #8 October 11, 2006 Agree with you and Sparky,quite often i see people on flightline planning their jump or just starting to get a group together. Plan the skydive beforehand and skydive the plan. I am sure this alone would prevent quite a few stupid moments Steve Swooping, huh? I love that stuff ... all the flashing lights and wailing sirens ... it's very exciting! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Liemberg 0 #9 October 11, 2006 QuoteI have found it is much easier to sit back and watch the carnage than to try and educate the stupid people who are convinced “They can handle it”. But since you are not sure about that beforehand, there's always the possibility that some of them are less covinced - even if they at first appear to be just as "young, dumb & full of c$%..." as the next one. Remember, it is THEM you are addressing when you tell them once more that the wheel is already invented and that 'roundness' is indeed the winning design concept... Unfortunatly most of the time it is only those on which it was all wasted that make the headlines and/or the incident forum while those that secretly think "hmmm - maybe old sparky did have a point there" you never hear from again since they enjoy the sport in relative safety jump after jump. Other than that: What made you so grumpy and moody today; old war wounds itching terribly? "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites popsjumper 2 #10 October 11, 2006 You're old enough to know the difference between ignorant and stupid. Please don't let us ignorant folks fall by the wayside. (no pun intended)My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites LisaM 0 #11 October 11, 2006 "You can't fix stupid." ~ Lisa ~ Do you Rigminder? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kkeenan 14 #12 October 11, 2006 Quote...I have come to the conclusion that the same stupid mistakes will be made over and over again It's good that Sparky has brought this up, and, yes, it is a never-ending quest. A lot of jumpers seem to think that they have a monopoly on flying, and that their safety problems are unique. True, skydiving is a specialized form of aviation, but ever since people have figured out how to rise up in the air, there have been some of them falling back down and getting hurt or killed in the process. For over a hundred years, there have been powered airplanes, and lots of other aircraft for many years before that. My point is that smart people have tried to make aviation safe for all that time. In all of aviation, there has always been the balance of Fun vs. Profit vs. Safety to deal with. And the personalities of flyers and jumpers have always been similar. In our little world, they may seem very different, but compared with the big world, we are a lot alike. There have always been the "Hey, y'all watch this" types and the "Are you sure that's a good idea?" types. (And often, they are the same people, switching roles on different days.) It is a yin-yang relationship that makes up the world. You can get frustrated with the fact that people continue to make the same mistakes, but I'm not sure that it can be changed to any great degree. People who take aviation of any sort lightly will get hurt or killed by it eventually. People who put all their effort into mastering it will probably survive in the long run. You can't have the BS without the BD. Anyone can make a mistake. But, it's rare that one mistake will kill you. Having the skill, knowledge, and composure to bail yourself out of that mistake and to turn the outcome into something survivable is the bottom line that we should all shoot for. Kevin K._____________________________________ Dude, you are so awesome... Can I be on your ash jump ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wmw999 2,588 #13 October 11, 2006 Quote have come to the conclusion that the same stupid mistakes will be made over and over again as long as there are skydivers alive stupid enough to make them.Every year there is a new batch of first graders in school, too. But the teachers keep on teaching them. It's easy to notice the ones who are always there, though -- arrogant, know everything, and wanting to learn from their own mistakes. You just have to remember all the others who are listening. They don't hear everything (who can), but they hear some of it. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Trae 1 #14 October 11, 2006 in reply to"Stupid people will continue to do stupid things no matter how many barriers of reason and common sense you placed in their way. And so I have found it is much easier to sit back and watch the carnage than to try and educate the stupid people who are convinced “They can handle it”. ........................................ yep must be universal. Gets me how if you do attempt to inform 'stupid' of approaching consequences 'stupid' will label you more than stupid. Stupid didn't see how you got to see it coming. I've found trying to change (improve ) a stupid persons fate is often (always) counterproductive. This might be a universal law of stupidity that everyone gets to rediscover for eternity. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bozo 0 #15 October 11, 2006 [Every year there is a new batch of first graders in school, too. But the teachers keep on teaching them. Wendy W. As a longtime instructor...I would say this. The first graders learn and grow....next year they go to the next class. Skydivers hang around the DZ, in your face, so to speak. We watch them doing the same dumb things year after year. It wears on a person which causes a post like Sparkys. Finally the instructor gets tired and worn out and decides....as Sparky says....its easier just to sit back and watch. bozo Pain is fleeting. Glory lasts forever. Chicks dig scars. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflysteve 0 #8 October 11, 2006 Agree with you and Sparky,quite often i see people on flightline planning their jump or just starting to get a group together. Plan the skydive beforehand and skydive the plan. I am sure this alone would prevent quite a few stupid moments Steve Swooping, huh? I love that stuff ... all the flashing lights and wailing sirens ... it's very exciting! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Liemberg 0 #9 October 11, 2006 QuoteI have found it is much easier to sit back and watch the carnage than to try and educate the stupid people who are convinced “They can handle it”. But since you are not sure about that beforehand, there's always the possibility that some of them are less covinced - even if they at first appear to be just as "young, dumb & full of c$%..." as the next one. Remember, it is THEM you are addressing when you tell them once more that the wheel is already invented and that 'roundness' is indeed the winning design concept... Unfortunatly most of the time it is only those on which it was all wasted that make the headlines and/or the incident forum while those that secretly think "hmmm - maybe old sparky did have a point there" you never hear from again since they enjoy the sport in relative safety jump after jump. Other than that: What made you so grumpy and moody today; old war wounds itching terribly? "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #10 October 11, 2006 You're old enough to know the difference between ignorant and stupid. Please don't let us ignorant folks fall by the wayside. (no pun intended)My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LisaM 0 #11 October 11, 2006 "You can't fix stupid." ~ Lisa ~ Do you Rigminder? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kkeenan 14 #12 October 11, 2006 Quote...I have come to the conclusion that the same stupid mistakes will be made over and over again It's good that Sparky has brought this up, and, yes, it is a never-ending quest. A lot of jumpers seem to think that they have a monopoly on flying, and that their safety problems are unique. True, skydiving is a specialized form of aviation, but ever since people have figured out how to rise up in the air, there have been some of them falling back down and getting hurt or killed in the process. For over a hundred years, there have been powered airplanes, and lots of other aircraft for many years before that. My point is that smart people have tried to make aviation safe for all that time. In all of aviation, there has always been the balance of Fun vs. Profit vs. Safety to deal with. And the personalities of flyers and jumpers have always been similar. In our little world, they may seem very different, but compared with the big world, we are a lot alike. There have always been the "Hey, y'all watch this" types and the "Are you sure that's a good idea?" types. (And often, they are the same people, switching roles on different days.) It is a yin-yang relationship that makes up the world. You can get frustrated with the fact that people continue to make the same mistakes, but I'm not sure that it can be changed to any great degree. People who take aviation of any sort lightly will get hurt or killed by it eventually. People who put all their effort into mastering it will probably survive in the long run. You can't have the BS without the BD. Anyone can make a mistake. But, it's rare that one mistake will kill you. Having the skill, knowledge, and composure to bail yourself out of that mistake and to turn the outcome into something survivable is the bottom line that we should all shoot for. Kevin K._____________________________________ Dude, you are so awesome... Can I be on your ash jump ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,588 #13 October 11, 2006 Quote have come to the conclusion that the same stupid mistakes will be made over and over again as long as there are skydivers alive stupid enough to make them.Every year there is a new batch of first graders in school, too. But the teachers keep on teaching them. It's easy to notice the ones who are always there, though -- arrogant, know everything, and wanting to learn from their own mistakes. You just have to remember all the others who are listening. They don't hear everything (who can), but they hear some of it. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trae 1 #14 October 11, 2006 in reply to"Stupid people will continue to do stupid things no matter how many barriers of reason and common sense you placed in their way. And so I have found it is much easier to sit back and watch the carnage than to try and educate the stupid people who are convinced “They can handle it”. ........................................ yep must be universal. Gets me how if you do attempt to inform 'stupid' of approaching consequences 'stupid' will label you more than stupid. Stupid didn't see how you got to see it coming. I've found trying to change (improve ) a stupid persons fate is often (always) counterproductive. This might be a universal law of stupidity that everyone gets to rediscover for eternity. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bozo 0 #15 October 11, 2006 [Every year there is a new batch of first graders in school, too. But the teachers keep on teaching them. Wendy W. As a longtime instructor...I would say this. The first graders learn and grow....next year they go to the next class. Skydivers hang around the DZ, in your face, so to speak. We watch them doing the same dumb things year after year. It wears on a person which causes a post like Sparkys. Finally the instructor gets tired and worn out and decides....as Sparky says....its easier just to sit back and watch. bozo Pain is fleeting. Glory lasts forever. Chicks dig scars. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MakeItHappen 15 #16 October 11, 2006 QuoteAfter spending a few days going through the old log books and old memories I have come to the conclusion that the same stupid mistakes will be made over and over again as long as there are skydivers alive stupid enough to make them. Stories from the old timers, statistics from the past even education will not stop this phenomenon. Stupid people will continue to do stupid things no matter how many barriers of reason and common sense you placed in their way. And so I have found it is much easier to sit back and watch the carnage than to try and educate the stupid people who are convinced “They can handle it”. I think it was GravityGirl that said, “Common Sense is not that Common”. How right you are Bonnie. That’s all folks, enjoy. I agree that it is much easier to 'sit back and watch'. But I also know that if you do that there is no possible way you could help someone that is open to help. You also cannot save everyone from their mistakes. The good news is that some may be saved. Many years ago I started Sport Parachutist's Safety Journal. because I did not want to 'sit back and watch'. I wanted to make a difference. I was tired of seeing the same mistakes over and over again. Over the years I've had many jumpers tell me that stuff they read in SPSJ (long before it was online) saved them. One year I saw one article posted up on the hanger wall at College Station, TX. Skydance Skydiving gave out copies of Newbies Blues to new graduates. Other articles have appeared in Parachutist and various other publications. One thing I can tell you, Mike, is that 'sit back and watch' will not improve the sport. It is very easy to 'sit back and watch'. That is why most people do it. A careful choosing of the issues to address will make a 'stand up and be counted' approach more palatable. One thing you and others must realize is that you won't bat 1.000. You will strike out on occasion and sometimes bunt or hit a sacrifice fly. These times are offset by the home runs, singles, doubles or triples. If anyone ever comes and tells you that something they learned from you saved them, then you know it was worth it. For me, I know that the time I've spent teaching has been well worth the effort. .. Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
winsor 236 #17 October 11, 2006 QuoteStupid people will continue to do stupid things no matter how many barriers of reason and common sense you placed in their way. And so I have found it is much easier to sit back and watch the carnage than to try and educate the stupid people who are convinced “They can handle it”. A lot of them seem to be hell-bent on reinventing the wheel, but a surprisingly large percentage will take advice intended to keep them alive and healthy. After giving them a heads-up regarding something or another, I let them do what they please. I avoid being near the airspace of the ones who are totally out of control. Rather a few people have come up to me over the years and thanked me for something I said when they were low-time. I would rather make suggestions ignored 9 times out of 10 if it results in the 10th jumper being enough ahead of the curve that they walk away from a potentially tragic chain of events. In addition, some of the 9 responses that appear to be total indifference may well sow the seed of doubt that results in a gear change, a canopy course or whatever is necessary to improve survivability. Some of the people who have taken the time to say thanks later seemed to be studies in arrogance at the time. I certainly appreciate the people who have taken the time to help keep me alive over the years, and figure the best way to pay it back is to pass it on. Blue skies, Winsor Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
