Aircraft vs. 4-way teams

[quade 4]

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A fellow camera flyer, a really good friend, actually my initial camera flying mentor, is very lucky to be alive. He struck the horizontal stabilizer during an exit.

Blaming the aircraft for that is a mistake.

And yet, had conditions been exactly the same in a Twin Otter . . . it would have never happened.

So, how can you -not- put a large portion of the blame on the basic design of the aircraft?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Ron 10]

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Hehe ... I meant different Ron - Reginald

Then you should of used his code name...."Nicely dressed Ron." You are starting to get me confused (not that it is hard).

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[diablopilot 2]

Because thousands of jumps are done out of that A/C type yearly. The blame rests solely on the jumper. Exits can be done safely out of many A/C, and sometime people become so focused on one aspect of a jump that they forget about other variables.

Your argument that it wouldn't have happened if it was a Twin Otter is a bit weak. It's exactly like saying some guy who hooked him self in on a 90 Velo would have been alright on a 190 Sabre, and then blaming the canopy. Ludicrous


All the Otter purists are going to be in for a shock in the next 5 to 10 years when they disappear from skydiving as the airframes time out. It will happen sooner than later.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Ron 10]

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All the Otter purists are going to be in for a shock in the next 5 to 10 years when they disappear from skydiving as the airframes time out. It will happen sooner than later.

Nah.

My only issue is being told to expect one plane and then a different type shows up. I think a good number of people don't care.

I have been told that this plane was not even going to fly a normal comp jump profile and would be going 100 knots for jump run. 85-90 is normal.

SO I could see a team getting mad is they were told they would have a caravan and then getting this plane.

I don't blame them for going....*I* however would have done the comp anyway as long as I felt the plane/pilot was safe.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[JumpRu 14]

Striking the tail is a real possibility on any side door exit if aircraft is not flown properly on the jump run. You cannot blame jumper without having all information.

[jlmiracle 7]

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but you do like to use the right equipment when you swoop, play golf, ice hockey or any other equipment-intensive sport. An aircraft door is a part of equipment and it does not make a lot of sense to struggle using the wrong

so any plane other than an otter is the "wrong" equipment?

If they are any good they should struggle any more than any body else and should be able to make up for their short coming in freefall. The door doesn't come with in freefall.

judy

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[jlmiracle 7]

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The people I was thinking of when I started this thread are also the same jumpers who I have seen simply bitch out a low time jumper for not sitting quite right in an Otter, instead of suggesting a more comfortable way to sit. Same jumpers who I've seen kick a 1/2 packed canopy out of the way since they were the team and they needed their spot to pack. The same jumpers who have taken 15 seconds in the door to setup after the green light is on (and after the spot was good, regardless of the green light), screwing the rest of the load.

I hope someone in a position of authority had a quite chat with these folks. This is completely unacceptable behaviour, even if they are paying alot of money to the dropzone.

Unfortunatly it happens alot and in many places.

I've been screwed on a spot many times because the 4-way team HAD to go first and then they take way too much time in the door, especially for the amount of time the spent on the ground in the mock up setting it up.

j

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[PhreeZone 20]

Judy, how much competitive 4 way experience do you have?

For Nationals training... yes. Jumping a CASA or a Skyvan will have you planing completly different exits then an Otter. For that matter the narrow door of a King Air makes launching some of the formations an engineering nightmare and most times get launched as something else then built to the first point. At that time you are 6-8 seconds into a jump or almost a 1/3rd into it before you've reached the first point.

The best teams that were training for the World Meet the other year out of a Porter even had to have a conversion time between their Porter jumps and their Otter jumps at that Nationals since they are engineered completly differently.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Ron 10]

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so any plane other than an otter is the "wrong" equipment?

Nope, but if you expect one thing and get other the DZ made the mistake.

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If they are any good they should struggle any more than any body else and should be able to make up for their short coming in freefall.

I bet that my team doing the same jumps out of an Otter vs any other plane will score better with the Otter. It is what we TRAINED. Could we do OK? Yep, but we will do better with what we trained. And it is a meet.

I think insted of automaticly bashing the teams, Lets find out if they were promised something else. If so then the DZ made the error, not the teams.

I can't blame the teams if they were promised one thing and were given another.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[jlmiracle 7]

One of my jump planes is a C195 - the same C195 that a very well know 4-way team trained in in Deland. In fact still have the video hook ups for the debrief on they way backup to altitude.

Before Nemisis (I can't spell) moved, they jumped a KingAir. I learned alot jumping with them in just one weekend and what can be launched from a tiny little door.

I've never trained for world meet. I trained one summer for Nationals but we couldn't go and we trained out of a kingair and the C195.

I think it would make for better competition at least more interesting if they changed up the planes every year and even kept them a secret until say a week or two out, but then again, I'm all about having fun and less about being competitive.

have you heard back from michael?

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[matthewcline 0]

I have no dog in the fight but this is from the league;


"Did you know that:

Meet 3 of the MESL almost didn't happen?

Skydive Wayne County was the scheduled host DZ for this weekend's meet.
However, the aircraft arrived an hour and a half late and was a Beech-99 instead of the promised Caravan. The door on the 99 is not suitable for 4way competition. This could have proved embarrassing for the DZ, but all of the competitors recognized that this was not the fault of Skydive Wayne County, but rather the fault of Skydive Greensburg, who sent the wrong bird.
The competitors extended their apologies to the Wayne County DZO then hopped in their cars and made the drive to Skydive Greene County in Xenia, OH.

And the show went on despite a late start and only two teams competing. But the competitors didn't care about the low turnout. They enjoyed a more relaxed pace and still finished the meet with plenty of daylight left.

Mystic Rhythmns scored a solid 9.7 average, moving them up to number seven on the NSL leader board. If not for four infringements and some glitches in round 6, a 10-point average was well within their grasp.

Vortex struggled with exits and posted a 4.3 average despite an improvement in block work since the previous meet. They continue to hit their own goals.

We look forward to another relaxed meet in August. Mystic Rhythmns and Vortex will be there."

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[jlmiracle 7]

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I think insted of automaticly bashing the teams, Lets find out if they were promised something else. If so then the DZ made the error, not the teams.

I'm only bashing the teams that take up too much time in the door and kick around other people's canopies cause "they are on a team".

If they can't handle jumping from a different airplane then they don't have to. They don't HAVE to compete. If the winds aren't perfect, they don't HAVE to jump. I just think its really weak, but I jump to have fun and not compete, but I still like the idea of a mystery plane for Nationals, it might make it more interesting to watch instead of the same or about the same outcome every year.

I ususally root for the underdogs that don't give up - even if they get a zero.

and honestly, I'm only on this thread cause I'm waiting to see if the Jet thread is updated, and I'm bored.

Judy

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[AMax 0]

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All the Otter purists are going to be in for a shock in the next 5 to 10 years when they disapear from skydiving as the airframes time out. It will happen sooner than later.

There is no doubdt that Otters will eventually disappear (although I doubt that they will disappear in 5-10 years). I am afraid some people are still missing the point. It is totally possible for any team of any experience level to consistently launch the 4-way exits (some, not all of them) from any type of A/C currently used in skydiving industry. The point is that some types of A/C are better (more convenient) than the others. Since the Otters are CURRENTLY used as a standard A/C at Nationals, what's wrong with preferring the Otters to other A/C for training or local competition? We (very inexperienced team) use both Otter and Caravan for practice jumps. Both work fine, but we don't even try to take some exits out of a Caravan (bipole, for example) because the Caravan door is smaller and because we are not that good. Now, if we didn't have the access to Otter at all, we would not be able to practice launching these exits intact - a serious disadvantage that would probably put us behind the team of the same experience level that has an assess to an Otter.

As fas as teams being arrogant, here is my personal take (I agree with everything that Ron said earlier). First of all, the teams are formed by individuals and are frequently being judged as a group. If I join a group of people to make a few fun loads on Saturday, these people will not be blamed for my personal attitide but there is a good chance that my team WILL.
Second, the teams are relatively isolated from the rest of skydiving community because they are busy during a day and usually want to go home/team room ect. at night. This isolation is frequently being interpreted as unwilinnless to communicate and therefore aggorance.

[Reginald 0]

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I have no dog in the fight but this is from the league;


"Did you know that:

Meet 3 of the MESL almost didn't happen?

Skydive Wayne County was the scheduled host DZ for this weekend's meet.
However, the aircraft arrived an hour and a half late and was a Beech-99 instead of the promised Caravan. The door on the 99 is not suitable for 4way competition. This could have proved embarrassing for the DZ, but all of the competitors recognized that this was not the fault of Skydive Wayne County, but rather the fault of Skydive Greensburg, who sent the wrong bird.
The competitors extended their apologies to the Wayne County DZO then hopped in their cars and made the drive to Skydive Greene County in Xenia, OH.

And the show went on despite a late start and only two teams competing. But the competitors didn't care about the low turnout. They enjoyed a more relaxed pace and still finished the meet with plenty of daylight left.

Mystic Rhythmns scored a solid 9.7 average, moving them up to number seven on the NSL leader board. If not for four infringements and some glitches in round 6, a 10-point average was well within their grasp.

Vortex struggled with exits and posted a 4.3 average despite an improvement in block work since the previous meet. They continue to hit their own goals.

We look forward to another relaxed meet in August. Mystic Rhythmns and Vortex will be there."

Wow, this makes the original post look silly.


.

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[diablopilot 2]

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Striking the tail is a real possibility on any side door exit if aircraft is not flown properly on the jump run. You cannot blame jumper without having all information.

Do you? I do.

It is still the reponsibility of the individual leaving the A?C to ensure they do it in a safe maner. That's what being cleared to self jumpmaster is all about.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[DJL 235]

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With windtunnels popping up quicker then my lawn grows, at what point does competitive skydiving become so specialized and so regimented that only those that can afford to do nothing but put in 2000 jumps for specific training and another 20+ hours in a tunnel training with a coach become obsolete?

I hear you and agree. You're in charm of the fun you have in life. I'll give peopel their tunnel time and angst and have a better weekend skydiving than anyone on the DZ.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[AggieDave 6]

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You're in charm of the fun you have in life. I'll give peopel their tunnel time and angst and have a better weekend skydiving than anyone on the DZ.

Definately!

Some folks missed the reason for this thread. It wasn't about that specific incident in the other side of the country this past weekend. I really don't know anything about that situation. It just made me think of some of the really bad attitudes from the competition skydivers I've come across in the past 6 years.

Its definately up to the jumper to make sure they have a good time.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Ron 10]

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I'm only bashing the teams staff that take up too much time in the door and kick around other people's canopies cause "they are on a team staff".

See how it all goes around? The worst bitch out I ever got was from an instructor. The worst attitude I ever saw? Freeflyer.

Do I know some asshole 4way folks? Yep, but I also know asshole instructors, ff, DZO's and even students.

I think Anton was right....People get blamed for the attitude of their teammates. Also, people get blamed for being on a team when someone knew a jerk on a team, at another DZ, a few years ago...Therefore all teams are jerks.

And I know some people think teams are jerks...You saw my team RUNNING all day to make loads. As much as I would have loved to hang out more when you were down, I made 14 jumps with not really enough time to take a dump. By the time the beer light was on...I was toast. Some people see that and think, "Wow, that team is not very friendly. They just left after they were done."

That being said, I may be in Nashville next mth. I am planning on going to the DZ when there...Then I would love to play.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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[jlmiracle 7]

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And I know some people think teams are jerks...You saw my team RUNNING all day to make loads.

Ron, I wasn't talking about you guys. I thought the tall guy on your team (dave?) was very nice and funny. I was never on the plane with you so I have no idea if you hosed anyone by taking too much time and I never heard anyone there complain about your team.

My bitching is from experiences that happened some years ago and yes, I know staff/instructors can be complete asses also, but this thread was about 4-way teams and aircraft.

I still think a mystery plane at Nationals is a good idea. There are alot of good skydivers out there that would compete but won't because they don't have an otter or good access to one alot and the perception is (and reitereated here) that if you don't have the "right" door you can't win. I would love to see a non-otter dz team win.

When exactly are you threatening to visit.

j

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[riggerrob 643]

The people I was thinking of when I started this thread are also the same jumpers who I have seen simply bitch out a low time jumper for not sitting quite right in an Otter, instead of suggesting a more comfortable way to sit.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

You meet Team "Attitude" members in all walks of life.
After hearing their "Attitude" once too often, I tend to quit, leaving without an explanation, because I believe the cruelest revenge is leaving them to struggle with their own problems.

[riggerrob 643]

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With windtunnels popping up quicker then my lawn grows, at what point does competitive skydiving become so specialized and so regimented that only those that can afford to do nothing but put in 2000 jumps for specific training and another 20+ hours in a tunnel training with a coach become obsolete?

Bad news Dave, this has long since happened. Having done some 4 way I can tell you that teams practice out of Otters and compete out of Otters. And when even an intermediate team is doing 200 or 300 jumps a season training it is a big deal to get a different plane and door configuration thrown in. That said, personally I'm jump out of anything I can get a lift ticket on, unless it's a 182 of course.

The 4 way guys I know are some of the more generous skydivers I know in terms of sharing their expertise with newer jumpers.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Sorry Dave,
but that transition happened about 15 years ago.
Back then Arizona Airspeed and the "Knights had dominated 4-way competition - for so long - that young recreational jumpers gave up hope of ever "medalling" and changed their focus to chute assis, free-style, sit-flying, free-flying, VRW, atomnauti, etc.

[AMax 0]

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...You saw my team RUNNING all day to make loads.

Not entirely true. You always have two people running back to the hangar like crazy and two other people walking slowly.

[popsjumper 2]

Will somebody please explain to me why a Beech 99 is not suitable for 4-way comp?

I am having a very hard time believing this.
Door dimension is good. Camera guy should be able to handle it easily, H.Stab. location should not be a factor...what is it? Airspeed? Prop blast?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Ron 10]

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Ron, I wasn't talking about you guys. I thought the tall guy on your team (dave?) was very nice and funny. I was never on the plane with you so I have no idea if you hosed anyone by taking too much time and I never heard anyone there complain about your team.

My bitching is from experiences that happened some years ago and yes, I know staff/instructors can be complete asses also, but this thread was about 4-way teams and aircraft.

Well I know but some people do see us not hanging around as anti social....Not true, but it is a perception.

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When exactly are you threatening to visit

Late August.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[jlmiracle 7]

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Well I know but some people do see us not hanging around as anti social....Not true, but it is a perception

After making as many jumps as you guys do a day and running, in that heat none the less, wearing black, I don't know how social I could/would be. I think I would pretty much be asleep.

judy

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.