descending out of thermals

[somethinelse 0]

I REALLY NEED ADVICE & IN-PUT...

On IAF this weekend, in the late afternoon, I pulled as instructed at 6,000'...I had real trouble trying to descend to set up my landing pattern. I JUST COULDN't SEEM TO LOOSE ALTITUDE!
Later someone said it could've been because of thermals...?

I did really steep turns and spirals, tried lots of half- braking both into & with the wind, and even sought out grassier areas away from runways, but I STAYED ALOFT A REALLY LONG TIME!

The tandem that exited after me beat me back by to the dz by at least 5 minutes!

I ended up going too long on my initial approach to land, almost off the dz ( wasn't loosing altitude) got really near a farm, turn to base almost off the dz, and was in half brakes almost the whole time, and finally on final, being into the wind came down quicker, and landed it great.

But I'm stumped about how to loose altitude better.

My Instructor told me when this next occurs on my landing pattern to go ahead (above 1500') to make a gentle 360' turn to eat up some altitude so as to avoid going SO LONG next time, and then go into the regular landing pattern as planned.

Kinda worries me making any kind of turns low, tho.

Instructor also said that he's gonna start downsizing my chute size. I'm still jumping a student 280.

How about some different ideas for canopy play for me to try next time I'm up so long? I'm just a newbish student yet, but there's gotta be more to play then spirals and turns...and still being SAFE tho!

I'M REALLY LOOKING FORWARD TO YOUR RESPONSES...THANX!!!

[mr2mk1g 10]

Quote

and was in half brakes almost the whole time

I'm unclear as to how much you were flying around in half brakes... but that's a manoeuvre designed to slow your decent and keep you up as long as possible.

If you were using half breaks at all, that's only going to prolong your decent.

[TALONSKY 0]

If it looks like your going to over shoot your target one way to lose altitude is to go to 1/2 or 3/4 brakes this will slow your forward speed. Now some caution needs to be used on this you will need to go back to full flight before landing when you go back to full flight the canopy will surge down and forward so you will need to be high enough to make sure this is done before you get to the ground. This is an effective way to loose altitude but you need to make sure you go back to full flight high enough that when the canopy swings you back under it you are not on the ground.
Kirk

[Fast 0]

Quote

If it looks like your going to over shoot your target one way to lose altitude is to go to 1/2 or 3/4 brakes this will slow your forward speed. Now some caution needs to be used on this you will need to go back to full flight before landing when you go back to full flight the canopy will surge down and forward so you will need to be high enough to make sure this is done before you get to the ground. This is an effective way to loose altitude but you need to make sure you go back to full flight high enough that when the canopy swings you back under it you are not on the ground.
Kirk

I really think that is too much of a one size fits all answer. The ability to shorten the distance over the ground that your going to travel with brakes has a LOT to do with what canopy your flying and what the wind is doing on any given day.

I don't want to speculate on the circumstances present in somethingelse's situation. "Ask your instructor" about canopy flight characteristics of the differnt canopies you are going to fly. Test things out when you are flying around before its time to set your pattern up. Don't just fly around without thinking about it, make a point to learn something as often as you can.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[FrogNog 1]

This advice scares me a bit for a few reasons.
First, in low or no wind, all canopies that I know of will fly a flatter glide at a certain mid-range brake setting. (Could be 1/4 brakes, could be 1/2 brakes.)

Second, the reason going to deep brakes makes canopies fly a steeper glide (again in low or no wind) is because it retards forward speed so heavily that the canopy almost stops flying. In this configuration the canopy is near the stall point and typically has low pressurization and unless it was designed to fly stable like this, it will probably be more susceptible to collapse from turbulence or behave unexpectedly.

In medium or greater wind, slowing the forward speed changes the landing point by allowing wind to become more of a factor. But your advice didn't mention the effects of wind.

I hope a student doesn't try a deep brakes approach too near the ground before they know how much altitude it takes for the canopy to completely recover (as a student I found out almost the hard way that it can easily be 100 feet) and what to do if they get into a situation where there isn't sufficient altitude for a recovery to full flight, or before they know precisely where the stall point on their canopy is, what an incipient stall feels like, and how to recover from an incipient stall as safely as possible.

Somethinelse, did you talk to your instructors about possible thermals in the landing zone, and if so did they say they were likely to be present under the conditions at the time?

You could also talk to them about your concern about turning low. One of your instructors suggested the 360 turn under certain conditions above a certain altitude, so we assume they think it is safe, but you can ask them for details about it like "how do you define a gentle 360 turn?" and "how do I make sure while I'm doing it I'm not screwing up?".

[TALONSKY 0]

To an extent your right there is no real one answer for all circumstances but sinking a canopy in is a very common way to fix overshooting your target. What I stated only really applies if your on final and know your too high. S-turns are a thing of the past (and are not a good idea do to others landing HP style near you)to bleed off altitude so going into deeper brakes and letting the canopy surge afterward is an effective way to not overshoot a target as long as your high enough to let canopy full recover which I stated twice in my first post.
Kirk

[hookitt 1]

I've had to ask my students to simply fly somewhere else. The most prominent example, is a small girl on a large parachute.

After she spiraled both directions over and over and didn't descend, I asked her to fly to a different location. She flew to the middle of the dropzone, then I pointed her straight away from the dropzone until she descended, then turned her around.

This very same thing happened a couple jumps later. After enough attempts to make most mortals hurl, she duplicated what we had done previously.

It may seem wrong to fly away from the DZ, but at 5000 feet, you can go a long way.

[pilotdave 0]

But you're missing the fact that only accuracy canopies will sink in light or no wind. Modern canopies will fly farther in half or deep brakes in no wind or a tailwind.

Dave

[TALONSKY 0]

Quote

But you're missing the fact that only accuracy canopies will sink in light or no wind. Modern canopies will fly farther in half or deep brakes in no wind or a tailwind.

Really, that is amazing because what I described is exactly how I bleed off extra altitude when doing tandems and it really works well
Kirk

[Fast 0]

Quote

...but sinking a canopy in is a very common way to fix overshooting your target...

I don't belive that is a reliable thing to do with all canopies. On my Saber2 for example the toggle difference between stalling and sinking is VERY limited.





edit: punctuation

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[somethinelse 0]

Before I went up, there wasn't any talk about thermals or any problems with canopy control.
It was after the fact and talking with other jumpers that we tried to speculate on what could've contributed to my "hang time" aloft.

My instructor said that my time aloft was "fine" but, I thought it was quite a while. I'm no light weight either, so, there most be some contributing factors.

Downsizing will change the equatiion all the way around with everything. All the smaller chutes descend much more quickly...so I know that figures in a lot.

RIGHT??

thanx, I appreciate it. I'm always trying to work it out to be a better alround jumper.

-LILA.

[somethinelse 0]

There seems to be a bit of contradiction between different people about half-brakes and deep brakes the practical application with them.

Whey is this?

My instructor and another coach have both said - & this is with student chutes mind you- that using brakes WILL help slow me down AND descend.

SO DOES BRAKING apply DIFFERENTLY depending on the size and type of chute????

[parachutist 2]

Quote

I STAYED ALOFT A REALLY LONG TIME!

Congratulations! More fun for your $$ It's not a race to the ground

Quote

was in half brakes almost the whole time

That will keep you aloft. And I bet you were only in 1/4 brakes... depends on how you define the 1/2. Is it 1/2 as far as your arms can reach, or is it 1/2 the way to stall? In my opinion 1/2 means 1/2 the way to stall point... and since you can't even reach the stall point unless you add on 2 foot long arm extensions... you were probably ony at 1/4 brakes.

Don't worry about your instructor who's waiting on you below... he's getting paid so let him wait and enjoy the ride. Take in the scenery =]

[FrogNog 1]

Downsizing will reduce the amount of time you spend in the air under canopy, yes. But it's possible you might find the overshooting problem doesn't go away, because a smaller canopy of the same type will fly faster forward and down, but should follow the same glidepath. If there is no wind, you would land in the same place. If you are flying into or out of the wind, there will be a change. If you were being kept up by thermals (rising air), then the smaller canopy will have a higher descent rate, and the combined effect of your canopy naturally descending in the air and the air itself rising will result in a "more downward movement." You might still be rising, but not as fast. Or instead of staying at the same altitude, now you might be getting closer to the ground very slowly.

How things are going to change partially depends on what was really going on before. I know in no wind, the Skymaster 290 I used as a student (.75 lbs / sf) would fly forever.
My instructors at the time, when I had only a few jumps - encouraged me to use S-turns to good effect, and to learn more about how my pattern interacted with varying amounts of wind. Then later, when I started getting the hang of all that, they told me I had to learn to do without S-turns as much because eventually, when I would be jumping with lots of canopies in the air at the same time, it was not such a good thing to do.

Long story short, I listened to my instructors and asked a lot of questions, and they helped me one step at a time.

[mattjw916 2]

If you are really high... why not just try a little double front riser pressure?

I know it is kinda hard on a 280 though since it is more like doing pull-ups than diving down.

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[pilotdave 0]

I don't know anything about the tandem canopies you fly. But I did take Scott Miller's canopy course a few weeks ago. He suggests 3/4 brakes for getting back from a long spot (no wind or downwind), NOT half brakes, 1/4 brakes, or rear risers. Flying into stronger winds is different. The reduced groundspeed will allow you to sink, even though your glide ratio through the air is increased.

Your tandem canopies might be different. Try it with a sport canopy.

Dave

[TALONSKY 0]

I would suggest the same thing to you at about 500 feet AGL go to 3/4 brakes hold for a few seconds and then let the canopy surge forward. Some of the drop comes from the 3/4 brakes and some comes from the pendulum effect when your canopy recovers from the 3/4 brakes. I tried it alot at first but on my current sport rig if I am going to over shoot I will just add some harness input.
Reread your post it accures to me that you are missing that when the canopy surges forward after using the brake it WILL loss altitude alot quicker than full flight.
Kirk

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

Your tandem canopies might be different. Try it with a sport canopy.

The ones I jump aren't too different overall then a sport canopy.

If I go into 1/2-3/4 brakes, I float and go farther.

To shorten my approach (and create a little extra speed for landing) I damn near put it into a stall, pull full flare and hold, then let 'r go and surge down the slope.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Reginald 0]

Well, some of the things you are talking about for example, ½ breaks with the wind will actually keep you aloft longer. You did notice on final with some breaks (into the wind) that you descended slower. Breaks into and with the wind do very different things and I would talk to your instructors about it in more detail. I would doubt that you were in thermals but it is possible. My best guess is that it felt like a long time but it was probably normal. Secondly, you did do some things to keep you aloft longer, so when in doubt just let it glide with the toggles up. Spirals will cause you to lose altitude, trust me.
Your instructor told you to do 360’s above 1,500 feet and you were worried about “doing low turns”. 1,500 is NOT low for a turn. 200 or 300 feet IS low for a turn, 1,000 is most peoples cut off for any sort of turn other than gentle 90’s in their landing pattern. So don’t worry about “gentle 360's” above 1,500 as your instructor stated.

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[hookitt 1]

Remember, the canopy doesn't know if you're flying into the wind, or with the wind. The canopy reacts the same. The ground you cover changes.

Let the canopy fly if you want to descend. If you're not descending, go somewhere else.

Sashays (spelling) are basically aggressive S Turns. Those and spirals will help you descend. Putting the brakes on will not cause you to descend quicker until the canopy is barely flying. It's also more subject to turbulence. Edges of thermals are turbulant.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[pilotdave 0]

Ok, I didn't realize you meant to repeatedly tug on the toggles and let up quickly... here's what your original advice was...

Quote

If it looks like your going to over shoot your target one way to lose altitude is to go to 1/2 or 3/4 brakes this will slow your forward speed. Now some caution needs to be used on this you will need to go back to full flight before landing when you go back to full flight the canopy will surge down and forward so you will need to be high enough to make sure this is done before you get to the ground.

You implied that you hold 1/2 or 3/4 brakes until you are near the ground, then let up, being careful of the surge when you let up.

If you do that, you will go farther on a low wind day. If you pump the brakes, letting it surge every time, I'm not sure what will happen but if you say it works, I believe ya.

Dave

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

Quote

I STAYED ALOFT A REALLY LONG TIME!

Congratulations! More fun for your $$ It's not a race to the ground

Depending, of course, on how well the legs feel in the student harness! Doing the 5500 practice HnP last week, 5000ft of descending was uncomfortably long compared to the more typical 3500 for me, was losing a bit of circulation.

Lila, are they keeping you at the 280 because that's normal practice for their students, or they believe it's still most appropriate for you? Unless you're over 200 without gear like me, you're going to be up there a long time. The tandems are much higher loaded and will beat you down. They always did at my DZ when I was pulling at the student 5.5 level. I ended up getting shifted to a 265 because the DZ I've used for post AFF topped out at that size. It was a bit of a transition for me - PD 300 in moderate winds to Falcon 265 in nearly calm.

[jerm 0]

My problem with this advice is that you're recommending low-altitude near-stall scenarios AND low-altitude diving canopy surges to a student.
While this may or may not be good advice for more experienced canopy pilots, having a student, especially one you don't know anything about, perform these maneuvers low to the ground is downright irresponsible and dangerous.

Even beyond that, on many DZs the advice is flat-out wrong because student canopies have their brakes trimmed to not come anywhere near the stall point on a normal flare. The would, in effect, just be going into 2/3 brakes on a normal full-flare.

S-turns may be "a thing of the past" for experienced jumpers in the middle of a busy patters, but as far as i've seen they're still taught to students because usually, at that level, their patterns still leave a lot to be desired.

Please, when dishing out advice that could be very dangerous if done just a little bit wrong, consider to whom it's being given.

Quote

Reread your post it accures to me that you are missing that when the canopy surges forward after using the brake it WILL loss altitude alot quicker than full flight.

yes, but you'll also pick up a lot of speed, so the benefit of the maneuver is dependent on how much alti you can lose the the near-stall section of the maneuver.

Landing without injury is not necessarily evidence that you didn't fuck up... it just means you got away with it this time

[TALONSKY 0]

It is aparent that enough people dislike the advise I gave so I am going to give up on the thread. If I could I would delete my original post. I personally believe teaching S turns on final is about as dangerous as you can get at a busy DZ. It will someday cause a canopy collision.
Kirk

[Push 0]

Quote

While this may or may not be good advice for more experienced canopy pilots

It's a point of argument whether I'm experienced or not, but I wouldn't do it. That close to the stall point your canopy is very susceptible to turbulence, which means spins and collapses, which is the last thing you want on final. Coincidentally, the cold "edges" of a thermal are quite turbulent and this type of turbulence applies pressure downwards on the canopy, the worst possible scenario in any flight mode, not just near the stall point. In fact, even airlocks are useless in this scenario. I suppose that if you're using this technique, you're already very long on your pattern, and could very well be flying out of the thermal.

I think it's a much better idea to learn the accuracy trick, to fly the pattern properly and have well fitting harnesses so that flying in a thermal is not such a big deal.

-- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo
Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you.