udder 0 #51 October 24, 2006 Still doubt you will ever see some dead guys kids saying "I'm so happy Daddy died when he jumped without a cypres and blacked out/lost alti awareness, shoulder dislocated/ lost handle etc." And I do listen. People with thousands of jumps have been saved by a Cypres. So there no reason I shouldn't have one. Edited to add: Some data from USPA: Year Low/no pull fatalities USPA members 1989 25 18484 1999 2 35000+ PS. Dont have money.But I will be jumping again by dec."In one way or the other, I'm a bad brother. Word to the motherf**ker." Eazy-E Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bozo 0 #52 October 24, 2006 QuoteStill doubt you will ever see some dead guys kids saying "I'm so happy Daddy died when he jumped without a cypres and blacked out/lost alti awareness, shoulder dislocated/ lost handle etc." And I do listen. People with thousands of jumps have been saved by a Cypres. So there no reason I shouldn't have one. ------------------------------------------------------- Nobody is telling you not to buy one either. Ya need it...buy it....use it. The thing a lot of you newer jumps dont understand is that a great number of the older jumpers got into the sport because it "is" dangerous. You want to be part of the "mainstream"..go ahead. bozo Pain is fleeting. Glory lasts forever. Chicks dig scars. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Squeak 17 #53 October 24, 2006 Quote..._ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Don't lose sight, also, about how this affects the jumper retention issue. How many people are in that gray area of financial life, where they can't jump as often as many Perris regulars but they can still pursue the sport and be one of us? This extra cost is exactly what is needed to discourage them and drive them away forever. More important, however, is the effect these mandatory AAD policies have on younger jumpers. As they grow up into the sport, all they know is a world with mandatory AAD's. This causes them to adopt the mind-set that jumping without an AAD is VERY dangerous and, thus, AAD's should always be mandatory. Later, when these pups decide to start their own DZ's, guess what you must have if you want to be a customer?... Cheers, Jon S. None of which I actually have a problem with, you wanna race a motorbike (here in OZ) it and you, must meet specific requirements, those requirement have changed overtime as safer options become available. I have no problems with mandatory AADsYou are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites phoenixlpr 0 #54 October 24, 2006 QuoteI wouldn't have started jumping in the round & jump-boots days. I like my ankles and back the way they are. If that means I'm somehow less of a skydiver, then so be it. I have started with rounds, broke my ankle with a square. I had jumps with PPKU - mechanical AAD. I forgot to arm it on my last jump. I would not jump rounds again after jumping squares. I don;t think you have missed so much. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites udder 0 #55 October 24, 2006 If thats the case I suspect you also freefly in a rig with a belly mount reserve(no reserve pilot chute) and two shot system. Complete with mudflap removed and occasionally packing a quilt in the reserve container. No one's telling you not to buy a rig with three rings. Ya need it...buy it...use it. The thing to remember is that if everyone thought like you we would still be jumping mil surplus. And maligning any progress that made the sport safer, for the sake of keeeping the "dangerous" element. Mainstream is a relative term. Did old timers beat on you for being mainstream when you bought your first rig with 3-rings? I respect that you have a great number of jumps of many many years, but that arguement has not one ounce of logic."In one way or the other, I'm a bad brother. Word to the motherf**ker." Eazy-E Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jakee 1,564 #56 October 24, 2006 QuoteLet's just say everyone had to skydive the way we oldtimers were taught, No AADs, RSLs, Dytters or even coaches. Add in, you MUST jump, gasp, a ROUND canopy And the sport would be far poorer for it, IMO. I love flying square canopies, I love that I can pick up coaching whenever I want to get better at things, I love that I've got a little beepy thing that will tell me how long my last wingsuit jump was (I can give or take the beeps though). QuoteI am all for safety, but no one should DEPEND on anything other than themselves and their actions. Though I would and have jumped without one, the Cypres is A Good Thing. That people might decide to rely on one is no fault of the unit itself, it is our fault that we do stupid shit 'because we have a backup' and should not reflect badly on the AAD itself. It just sits there, quietly doing its job, saving peoples' lives more often than most of us would like to admit. Whether or not they should be mandatory is one debate, but I think we should be able to agree that at the end of the day, the modern AAD is A Good Thing.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skypuppy 1 #57 October 25, 2006 Arguing with someone who has 23 jumps and one year in sport is what has not a shred of logic.If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead. Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skypuppy 1 #58 October 25, 2006 the modern AAD is A Good Thing For certain situations.... And not for others.If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead. Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites teason 0 #59 October 25, 2006 QuoteFor certain situations.... And not for others. There is not a safelty device in the world that you can't say that about. The question is this; is it safer in general to be with one or without? The tone of your caveat equivocates that it is 50/50. That is a blatant misrepresentation.I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georgerussia 0 #60 October 25, 2006 Quote I have started with rounds, broke my ankle with a square. I had jumps with PPKU - mechanical AAD. Me too. BTW there were two AAD's - for main and for reserve. I would not jump without AAD even though I did one :)* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites phoenixlpr 0 #61 October 25, 2006 QuoteMe too. BTW there were two AAD's - for main and for reserve. I had PPKU istalled for the main on RS4/A and for the reserve on some other gear. I never had on both. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites shermanator 4 #62 October 25, 2006 I think that if they are mandatory, it will prevent some people from being able to afford jumping. I just bought my rig; and without an AAD, because it was out of my budget. prior to getting my rig, all the systems i jumped had one, and i used them. Funny thing is, once i put my rig on, with no AAD, i was, and still am WAY more aware of what is going on around me, and paying attention to altitude, yes, i have 'lost awareness, but none that was anything close to putting me past 'danger' . It is unfortunate that i cannot jump at SDSD because i do not have over 1000 jumps and an aad. thats life, i will just continue to jump elswhere, and probably never visit san diego, even after i get one. I vote for it to be personal choice. I think that requiring them is a huge slap to the face to those jumpers who lived through times of no aads, and to todays standards, questionable gear. I thank all of them, because without their willingness to jump, i wouldnt be able to experience the tranquility of skydiving.CLICK HERE! new blog posted 9/21/08 CSA #720 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites udder 0 #63 October 25, 2006 Bravo..."In one way or the other, I'm a bad brother. Word to the motherf**ker." Eazy-E Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bozo 0 #64 October 25, 2006 QuoteArguing with someone who has 23 jumps and one year in sport is what has not a shred of logic. Thats why I quit. Its like talking to a rock. Some people need to learn all by themselves. bozo Pain is fleeting. Glory lasts forever. Chicks dig scars. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites phoenixlpr 0 #65 October 25, 2006 QuoteQuoteArguing with someone who has 23 jumps and one year in sport is what has not a shred of logic. Thats why I quit. Its like talking to a rock. Some people need to learn all by themselves. Wow! Having almost 3000 jumps and 20+ years in the sport, but still don't know how to handle new commers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skypuppy 1 #66 October 25, 2006 The question is this; is it safer in general to be with one or without? The tone of your caveat equivocates that it is 50/50. That is a blatant misrepresentation. __________________________________________________ Your less than 50/50 -- could be 90 percent of one jumper's, or one group of jumpers', skydiving activities. Making them wear an aad because it's better 'in general' for the larger population, may drive them out of the sport altogether.... But I forgot. You guys don't care about that....If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead. Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites frynsky 0 #67 October 25, 2006 I vote for it to be personal choice. I think that requiring them is a huge slap to the face to those jumpers who lived through times of no aads, and to todays standards, questionable gear. I thank all of them, because without their willingness to jump, i wouldnt be able to experience the tranquility of skydiving. Wow. I agree...... and....you're welcome?...nice post Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squeak 17 #53 October 24, 2006 Quote..._ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Don't lose sight, also, about how this affects the jumper retention issue. How many people are in that gray area of financial life, where they can't jump as often as many Perris regulars but they can still pursue the sport and be one of us? This extra cost is exactly what is needed to discourage them and drive them away forever. More important, however, is the effect these mandatory AAD policies have on younger jumpers. As they grow up into the sport, all they know is a world with mandatory AAD's. This causes them to adopt the mind-set that jumping without an AAD is VERY dangerous and, thus, AAD's should always be mandatory. Later, when these pups decide to start their own DZ's, guess what you must have if you want to be a customer?... Cheers, Jon S. None of which I actually have a problem with, you wanna race a motorbike (here in OZ) it and you, must meet specific requirements, those requirement have changed overtime as safer options become available. I have no problems with mandatory AADsYou are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #54 October 24, 2006 QuoteI wouldn't have started jumping in the round & jump-boots days. I like my ankles and back the way they are. If that means I'm somehow less of a skydiver, then so be it. I have started with rounds, broke my ankle with a square. I had jumps with PPKU - mechanical AAD. I forgot to arm it on my last jump. I would not jump rounds again after jumping squares. I don;t think you have missed so much. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
udder 0 #55 October 24, 2006 If thats the case I suspect you also freefly in a rig with a belly mount reserve(no reserve pilot chute) and two shot system. Complete with mudflap removed and occasionally packing a quilt in the reserve container. No one's telling you not to buy a rig with three rings. Ya need it...buy it...use it. The thing to remember is that if everyone thought like you we would still be jumping mil surplus. And maligning any progress that made the sport safer, for the sake of keeeping the "dangerous" element. Mainstream is a relative term. Did old timers beat on you for being mainstream when you bought your first rig with 3-rings? I respect that you have a great number of jumps of many many years, but that arguement has not one ounce of logic."In one way or the other, I'm a bad brother. Word to the motherf**ker." Eazy-E Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,564 #56 October 24, 2006 QuoteLet's just say everyone had to skydive the way we oldtimers were taught, No AADs, RSLs, Dytters or even coaches. Add in, you MUST jump, gasp, a ROUND canopy And the sport would be far poorer for it, IMO. I love flying square canopies, I love that I can pick up coaching whenever I want to get better at things, I love that I've got a little beepy thing that will tell me how long my last wingsuit jump was (I can give or take the beeps though). QuoteI am all for safety, but no one should DEPEND on anything other than themselves and their actions. Though I would and have jumped without one, the Cypres is A Good Thing. That people might decide to rely on one is no fault of the unit itself, it is our fault that we do stupid shit 'because we have a backup' and should not reflect badly on the AAD itself. It just sits there, quietly doing its job, saving peoples' lives more often than most of us would like to admit. Whether or not they should be mandatory is one debate, but I think we should be able to agree that at the end of the day, the modern AAD is A Good Thing.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skypuppy 1 #57 October 25, 2006 Arguing with someone who has 23 jumps and one year in sport is what has not a shred of logic.If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead. Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skypuppy 1 #58 October 25, 2006 the modern AAD is A Good Thing For certain situations.... And not for others.If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead. Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
teason 0 #59 October 25, 2006 QuoteFor certain situations.... And not for others. There is not a safelty device in the world that you can't say that about. The question is this; is it safer in general to be with one or without? The tone of your caveat equivocates that it is 50/50. That is a blatant misrepresentation.I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georgerussia 0 #60 October 25, 2006 Quote I have started with rounds, broke my ankle with a square. I had jumps with PPKU - mechanical AAD. Me too. BTW there were two AAD's - for main and for reserve. I would not jump without AAD even though I did one :)* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #61 October 25, 2006 QuoteMe too. BTW there were two AAD's - for main and for reserve. I had PPKU istalled for the main on RS4/A and for the reserve on some other gear. I never had on both. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shermanator 4 #62 October 25, 2006 I think that if they are mandatory, it will prevent some people from being able to afford jumping. I just bought my rig; and without an AAD, because it was out of my budget. prior to getting my rig, all the systems i jumped had one, and i used them. Funny thing is, once i put my rig on, with no AAD, i was, and still am WAY more aware of what is going on around me, and paying attention to altitude, yes, i have 'lost awareness, but none that was anything close to putting me past 'danger' . It is unfortunate that i cannot jump at SDSD because i do not have over 1000 jumps and an aad. thats life, i will just continue to jump elswhere, and probably never visit san diego, even after i get one. I vote for it to be personal choice. I think that requiring them is a huge slap to the face to those jumpers who lived through times of no aads, and to todays standards, questionable gear. I thank all of them, because without their willingness to jump, i wouldnt be able to experience the tranquility of skydiving.CLICK HERE! new blog posted 9/21/08 CSA #720 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
udder 0 #63 October 25, 2006 Bravo..."In one way or the other, I'm a bad brother. Word to the motherf**ker." Eazy-E Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bozo 0 #64 October 25, 2006 QuoteArguing with someone who has 23 jumps and one year in sport is what has not a shred of logic. Thats why I quit. Its like talking to a rock. Some people need to learn all by themselves. bozo Pain is fleeting. Glory lasts forever. Chicks dig scars. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #65 October 25, 2006 QuoteQuoteArguing with someone who has 23 jumps and one year in sport is what has not a shred of logic. Thats why I quit. Its like talking to a rock. Some people need to learn all by themselves. Wow! Having almost 3000 jumps and 20+ years in the sport, but still don't know how to handle new commers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skypuppy 1 #66 October 25, 2006 The question is this; is it safer in general to be with one or without? The tone of your caveat equivocates that it is 50/50. That is a blatant misrepresentation. __________________________________________________ Your less than 50/50 -- could be 90 percent of one jumper's, or one group of jumpers', skydiving activities. Making them wear an aad because it's better 'in general' for the larger population, may drive them out of the sport altogether.... But I forgot. You guys don't care about that....If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead. Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
frynsky 0 #67 October 25, 2006 I vote for it to be personal choice. I think that requiring them is a huge slap to the face to those jumpers who lived through times of no aads, and to todays standards, questionable gear. I thank all of them, because without their willingness to jump, i wouldnt be able to experience the tranquility of skydiving. Wow. I agree...... and....you're welcome?...nice post Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
teason 0 #68 October 25, 2006 QuoteYour less than 50/50 -- could be 90 percent of one jumper's, or one group of jumpers', skydiving activities. Making them wear an aad because it's better 'in general' for the larger population, may drive them out of the sport altogether.... But I forgot. You guys don't care about that.... Nice, follow it upwith a snide comment. Anyway, that is one of the cons of the AAD. Purchasing an AAD can cut into currency. Lack of currency is far more likely to kill you than a low pull. That is the arguement you should be making instead of confrontational back hands. All they do is make people turn off when you have something to say (and I know). If you are interested in a discussion, quit with the sarcastic attacks.I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bozo 0 #69 October 25, 2006 [replyWow! Having almost 3000 jumps and 20+ years in the sport, but still don't know how to handle new commers. ---------------------------------------------------------- Stick around for 20+ years and let me know how you feel about arguing the same argument over and over and over again. Its gets old very quickly, but some of us stuck around for the battle. I feel as though I'm done arguing. bozo Pain is fleeting. Glory lasts forever. Chicks dig scars. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
