bodypilot1 0 #26 January 19, 2005 Smile and take longer, then when they are on the ground ask them "How was your spot?" Exit when you have ENOUGH seperation for the discipline your doing. Be safe Edwww.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ECVZZ 0 #27 January 19, 2005 I had a very experienced tandem videographer nudge me at the door 4 seconds into my count saturday. I made eye contact with him while finishing my count...to 10! If it happens again we'll be talking to the S&TA. G. Jones "I've never been quarantined. But the more I look around, the more I think it might not be a bad idea." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,120 #28 January 19, 2005 >Those of you who read this thread and somewhat agree and are >tandem Masters or Instructors, make a change yourself if need be > and begin gently correcting others. Two more stories. I had an 8-way in the CASA and decided that I would wait 4 seconds then start the count. The group ahead of us exited and I took a look out the door. The screaming started. I counted to four, looked up and gave the count. Afterwards the train-tattoo Fayard chick came up to me and said "You can't be hosing people like that! You waited like 30 seconds and hosed everyone else on the load." "I waited four seconds before the count. You need at least six seconds separation today." "It was like 30 seconds! I was there!" "I've got the video here. Want to see?" She hesitated for a second and then just walked away. Later that week we had an 8-way (Amy and Winsor took it up actually) that took off in iffy conditions. On jump run Bill looked out the door and saw a big cloud directly under the plane; he couldn't see the DZ at all. "No good, clouds," he said, and came back in. "Go! What the fuck is wrong with you? Go!" screamed a tandem master from the front of the plane. "Solid clouds!" Winsor yelled back. "We're not getting out." "You can go through clouds! They won't hurt you. Why are you afraid of clouds?" he replied. "We're not getting out!" "Look, I have 400 tandems, and I say get out of the fucking plane!" "We're not getting out." "Then get out of the way!" He then shoved his way past the group, making it a point to hit them on the way by. The pilot watched all this from the cockpit and just shrugged. "So do you guys want another pass?" he asked. "Sure!" The plane went around, Bill saw a hole, and the group exited. They landed just before the tandem. All the people in our group were nice and dry; the tandem student was soaking wet and the TM had a soggy canopy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stumpy 284 #29 January 19, 2005 Is it common in the US to have places where they won't do a go around? That is the only real reason i can see that should give anyone any impatience in the door. I was second last out on a load at the Holiday boogie, pretty much all solo freeflyers, and the red light came on just before i exited, we got a go around, another 500 feet of altitude and a perfect spot (which was nice because i was demoing a canopy!) whats to get upset about!? Never try to eat more than you can lift Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratostar 5 #30 January 19, 2005 Jeff. Welcome back to the sky! As you will find out a LOT has changed in the last 10 or 15 years in this sport, it's just not like it was in the good ol days, some things are better now but other things suck, don't leave your stuff around (unless your looking to sue for fun and pratice) And look out for the hotshot zoomies of today. Pull low and sleep with your riggers wife and you'll be OK! ~you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
D22369 0 #31 January 19, 2005 LOL.............gotta love it but ..... it aint only the TM's that do it, My two partners and I were making a freefly dive and we were the biggest group on the plane full of freeflyers doing two ways or solo's - several years ago and the light went yellow, we opened the door and looked out, we couldnt tell where the hell we were....nothing looked familiar.... the light went green, we were still trying to figure out where we were and the screams of "go....GO....FUCKING GO" were quite ...uhhh, vocal, one of my partners looked at me as he prepared to swing out, I grabbed him and pulled the three of us out of everyones way and let them go.... to the mutterings of "assholes"...jerks....etc... ..... after the last jumper other than us went we looked out and finally recognised the dz.....WAY IN FRONT OF THE AIRPLANE...... we sat in the door for a minute or so then exited...... we had a great skydive and we were the only ones to land on the dz...... knowing where you are - and the exit separation are two very important safety issues !!! take your count and ignore them. its what I do. RoyThey say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crutch 0 #32 January 19, 2005 After reading this thread and all the responses, there are definitely many ways to look at it. For me personally, it really depends on the pilot as to whether I trust the now common GPS spots that are common with large planes. Jeff, back in the day, even a DC-3 with 50 jumpers on board rarely had more than 5 or 6 groups jumping. Today, with the new disciplines, tandems, AFF students, etc. it isn't uncommon to have an otter load of 20 people with ten groups. So, we have created ourselves a dilemma. I do put my blind trust in the pilot of the the aircraft too many times, but almost all of the places I jump have very good pilots, who are also skydivers. When the spot becomes long they tend to start turning back towards the airport on turn on the red light to do a go-around. By th same token, it is VERY irratating to have some jumper on a clear blue day, look out the door after the green light has come on, spend ten seconds finding the airport directly underneath the plane, then take their time climbing out, a long count, basically hosing the rest of the load because of a general lack of trust in the operation that 95% of the time puts all cut-away equipement on the airport (and generally the ones that don't are because someone hosed the load on the spot). So, where does this leave us! Someone people are assholes, but hosing them to make a point, especially if they have a student or passenger is not the way to do it. Vote with your dollars. If you don't like the operation, tell the DZO (calmly with facts) why you are going to spend your votes at another DZ. Usaully something will be done about it. Short story...at a once famous and very large DZ a 16-way I was on had a run in with someone who was a national champ. He hosed our whole 16-way on the spot on the next CASA load. We had a discussion with the DZO, the "champ" had to but us all a beer and apologize in front of most of the DZ that night. Just goes to show, there are good DZO's out there concerned about their customers being happy and safe!blue skies, art Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #33 January 19, 2005 My first jump in Perris years ago. I was doing athree way and we were first out of the Van. The green light comes on and I look down...I see nothing that looks like an airport. I look under the plane towards the nose...I see nothing that looks like an airport. People in the front start yelling ame to go. I tell them we are no where near the airport. They just keep yelling. Finally I get my group to go...We still landed off. Never again."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JeffSkydiver 0 #34 January 19, 2005 Thanks for your post, but just to be clear... I was NOT spotting. I already knew where we were; watching on the way up and the two people before me were both solos. I knew where we where. The "delay" in the door wasn't due to spotting - I was counting for separation - as instructed. But, on the topic of spotting, back in the old days, at least at the DZ where I jumped, the last jumper in the plane was the "spotter," not the pilot. The pilot would most of the time have the direction of the jump run correct and fly over the DZ. The spotter would yell course corrections and yell to cut the engine. I had to learn that skill very early on back in the day - certainly at less than 15 jumps I was spotting loads. That also coincided with learning RW. Then, the lowest number of jumps person would fly base and everyone else would fly in. So it made sense that the base would be the spotter. I bring this up just to show that, I guess from my previous experience, I usually know where we are as we approach jump run. Of course I take a look down and around once at the door - but even if the spot is perfect, if another person or group just launched, then a delay for separation is required. To sum up, the delay in my situation was not for spotting - it was for separation - as I was instructed to do 23 years ago, again instructed to do last month in AFF and instructed to do IN THE PLANE ON THAT LOAD BY AN INSTRUCTOR. I hope I get some work done this morning so I can make a jump or 2 this afternoon. Hey!!! Maybe I just finally realized why some jumpers wear earplugs!!!! jt* Let's all do this safe enough that we can still do this in our 90's. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crutch 0 #35 January 19, 2005 I totally agree with looking out and realizing where the plane is before it turns on jumprun. In most jump planes nowadays, it is very easy. Anyone who can't look out the door (through the lexan) any figure out where they are as the plane turns on to jumprun, doesn't need to be spotting anyhow! This is my beef with the person who does this at our DZ. He doesn't even start to look out until he opens the door, then spends time looking for the airport, then decides what he wants to do, then almost always has a long climbout...on and on. So, I think you did the right thing if you didn't rush your skydive, but I also think it is an issue that needs to be addressed with your S&TA or DZO. And..like I said, if you feel compromised by their answer, start looking around at other places.blue skies, art Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JeffSkydiver 0 #36 January 19, 2005 Thanks Crutch. Great advice. Let's get together and scream at each other in a plane sometime. lol Best to you, jt* Let's all do this safe enough that we can still do this in our 90's. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crutch 0 #37 January 19, 2005 I just read your profile and saw where you jump. I have never had a problem there, but I have been around long enough very few people bother me. Plus, most of the time I jump there, I have a birdman suit on and don't worry much about the spot! It is a beautiful day (just dress warm!), have fun jumping, I may be down there on Friday!blue skies, art Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tdog 0 #38 January 19, 2005 QuoteThe green light comes on and I look down.. A week ago there was a hot thread on this forum - most memorable advice... From my AFF ground school - this is one of the stories I remember (don't jump without looking): Apparently the pilot was resetting the switch for the light and went to green for a brief second by accident. A rather experienced jumper who was new to the DZ opened the door and jumped, trusting the light - landing miles away from the airport... I have been the first out many times in my short little skydiving carrier. If I can't see the where I want to land, I am not going, even if the light is green. So far, every time the light was green I liked the spot and jumped without delay, but... Please don't yell "go" to me, ok, unless I need to go to save my ass (like my PC has left without me), okay??? That is my feeling. Go should mean it, because, "dude, your pin got bumped, and I think your Dbag will be leaving soon too" just takes too much time to say. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peregrinerose 0 #39 January 19, 2005 QuoteI have been the first out many times in my short little skydiving carrier. If I can't see the where I want to land, I am not going, even if the light is green. So far, every time the light was green I liked the spot and jumped without delay, but... Please don't yell "go" to me, ok, unless I need to go to save my ass (like my PC has left without me), okay??? That is my feeling. Go should mean it, because, "dude, your pin got bumped, and I think your Dbag will be leaving soon too" just takes too much time to say. As a new jumper, I second that. Only had the 'go' thing yelled at me once, at about count 3 from the previous jumper leaving the plane when I was instructed 5-6 sec separation. I played deaf for the next 3 sec and then jumped. There were no off landings, but I was really annoyed. To me 'Go' yelled loudly like that should be reserved for true emergencies. Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjules 0 #40 January 19, 2005 It's definitely common, not necessary though. I agree that they should stop screaming GO. ***Free bird Forever Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JeffSkydiver 0 #41 January 19, 2005 I may be down there on Friday! ------------------------------- I might wait until tomorrow or Friday... we're expecting a little bump in the temperature. I want to come to Palatka sometime... It's probably only an hour from my house - Daytona Beach. Blues to you, jt* Let's all do this safe enough that we can still do this in our 90's. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,120 #42 January 19, 2005 >Anyone who can't look out the door (through the lexan) any figure out > where they are as the plane turns on to jumprun, doesn't need to be > spotting anyhow! You cannot see under the plane through the door. The primary purpose of looking out the door is to ensure you are clear of other traffic. The secondary purpose is to ensure your spot is reasonable. It takes me about 5 seconds to scan the area under the plane after the door is open. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crutch 0 #43 January 19, 2005 A quick peek down to check for traffic is one thing to stand there trying to figure out where you are is another. If you are at all aware, you are paying attention to where the plane is at during the last couple of minutes before the exit is called. You should have a pretty good idea whether you are short or long of the airport. This is all I am saying, the green light is not the time to start figuring out where the plane is in relation to the airport. Any person who can spot worth a damn knows where the plane is before the green light comes on and is anticipating it. Just my opinion.blue skies, art Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,120 #44 January 19, 2005 > A quick peek down to check for traffic is one thing . . . Hmm. It takes me at least 5 seconds on a good day. Keep in mind that you have to look 2 miles out in every direction to catch GA planes that might be a risk to you. That's a 45 degree cone in all directions including under the plane. Just looking down is pretty worthless - if you DO see a plane right under you, it will be gone by the time you get there anyway. Most aicraft I've been on give an 'open door' signal 10-30 seconds before exit. This is usually enough time to check for traffic and check the spot, unless something odd is going on (clouds etc.) So in most cases it's not a big deal. On aircraft like Mullins' King Air, I get grief sometimes because I look out the door instead of just climbing out, since he doesn't give an 'open door' signal. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jdfreefly 1 #45 January 20, 2005 Another good story.... Very marginal day, lots of clouds and the wind coming out of a direction that usually means bad weather. There are some breaks in the clouds, and we decide to throw a load up in the skyvan. All tandems and our three way free fly team. All the members of my team have been around that dz for at least 3 years and, at the time, had between 600 and 1200 jumps, two of us are tandem masters and we are, for the most part, well respected around the dz as heads up skydivers, or at least I would like to think so. Exit order is us, then tandems with video then solo tandems. During the climb up, I go to the front of the plane and talk to the pilot, a very seasoned jump pilot. He says, "I'm gonna throw the green light on early. You and Doug make the call when you should go. DO NOT PUNCH THE CLOUDS!" When the green light comes on, I look down and see the top of a cloud 500 feet below us. After about one second, the shouts start. Not everyone is screaming, just some people, generally the less experienced instructors and camera men. I take a mental head count of who is yelling and who isn't. We wait about 20 seconds and all of a sudden it is like a huge valley opens in the clouds and we can see down and, by leaning out, in front of the plane. We are still very short, but since this may be the only hole we get, we go....and if we are going to fit all the tandems through it, we better hurry. That spot was such that my group all made it back, although we pulled at around 5,000...and all of the tandems and video guys made it back. That was the only load we put up all day, which suited me just fine since it gave me a chance to go up to each person who was shouting and shame them. I also went up to each person who wasn't and thanked them for trusting us to not hose them. ...the thing about shouting is, it doesn't work...especially not on jump run. When I was doing tandems, if someone took what I thought was too long in the door, and it turned out that they hosed the spot, I would wait until I was on the ground to discuss it with them. One more thing, all you TMs out there that are guilty of shouting/screaming at people in the door, do you really think it puts your passenger at ease to have their TM screaming frantically a few seconds before exit? Methane Freefly - got stink? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JeffSkydiver 0 #46 January 20, 2005 Absolutely wonderful post! I wish I could print it out and tape it up at the DZ and inside the planes, along with a few of the other posts. After talking to the screamers once you were on the ground, did you notice a change in anyone's behavior on subsequent loads? jt* Let's all do this safe enough that we can still do this in our 90's. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tdog 0 #47 January 20, 2005 QuoteI would wait until I was on the ground to discuss it with them. I agree and like your attitude (assuming the conversation on the ground was a productive discussion and not a flame fest). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jdfreefly 1 #48 January 20, 2005 None of them have screamed at me since, but I have caught some still doing it to others. Methane Freefly - got stink? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #49 January 20, 2005 Another suggestion: Ask if you can sit in on the Instructors meeting in the morning before jumping starts and bring up the shouting issue to the entire staff? They may have some good input on how to stop this issue also. Be safe Edwww.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JeffSkydiver 0 #50 January 21, 2005 Wonderful day. I made two skydives today. No screaming either time! Well, I was the last one out both times. lol In both loads members of Deland Majik were in four ways with other jumpers. Great guys. Funny thing, when the green light went on and they checked out the spot and then began climbing out and then got set then finally did the count, nobody screamed at them!! There were 2 or 3 four ways with Majik members in them both loads I was on. Took some time to empty the plane. Still, no one screamed. As for me, the wind was a little brisk today. I was happy to be the last one out and didn't mind the extra time. I had a great spot both dives - plenty a ways upwind. So, all in all, a great day for me, even in the plane! jt* Let's all do this safe enough that we can still do this in our 90's. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
