Why Does the Army Use Roundies

[two40 0]

searched with no luck. i'm sure it's been posted before but i couldn't find it.

why does the army use round canopies? there has to be a good reason cause control and landing sure as hell isn't fun from what i can see.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Rounds don't use up as much altitude when they open plus their openings are more reliable. So the army can let the troops out on low passes with rounds.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[freeflysteve 0]

And i guess cos they are not as manouverable they are less likely to steer into each other and have a canopy collission especially on a night drop.

Swooping, huh? I love that stuff ... all the flashing lights and wailing sirens ... it's very exciting!

[jshatzkin 0]

Yep. Something you definitely need when there are up to 300 paratroopers (sometimes more!) in the sky at the same time!

Jen

[sweetmoose 0]

When I was in the airforce I asked an F-15 pilot why they use round instead of rectangular canopies in thier ejection seats. He said it's because they're cheaper, but the stuff the other guys on here said about them opening faster and more reliable makes more sense.

We die only once, but for such a very long time.

I'll believe in ghosts when I catch one in my teeth.

[Peter_ru 0]

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...why does the army use round canopies?...

Because it's much more simple to teach one to jump with a round canopy. In fact almost no training is needed for jumping a parachute with forced opening (I made my first jump after a 30 minutes briefing and a bit of practice). And surely I can't imagine paratrooper battalion on AFF training!

And they are cheaper too, I guess. Though special forces or reconnaissance units use rectangular (or maybe even elliptic ) canopies.

[frost 1]

Very simple - because it gets the job of putting a combat soldier onto a hostile LZ done in the most efficient and simple way. has nothing to do with cost.

[teason 0]

Actully, the FJC in the millitary is quite long. Lots of practical training and so on. I believe the FJC in the Canadian Military is 2 weeks. Soldiers learn a variety of PLFs where we really only learn one.
Landing on obstacles is also something that tends to be more indepth than when training civies with squares.

Special forces use rectangular planforms and usually big ones at that.
Last thing you need when landing in unknown terrain at night is a highly loaded elliptical

SarTecs in Canada use big Squares as they may have to jump into crash sites on the sides of mountains, at night, in snow storms.

I personally prefer to only jump when it's sunny, but that's just me

I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

[lekstrom10k 0]

I totally agree. They had Mark11olive -drab Para-Commanders in the late 60s or earky 70s . It didnt work as you said about canopy entanglements. If everyone is drifting aimlessly after opening seperation in a similar direction there is less chance of collision. You never saw a case of hand grenades or rations have a problem. Just add a soldier and watch the chaos. There were many of those canopies liberated and hook knifed data panels sold to young jumpers. It was still ugly OD and no one could ever tell. even after attempts to dye them black.

[TMPattersonJr 0]

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...why does the army use round canopies?...

Because it's much more simple to teach one to jump with a round canopy. In fact almost no training is needed for jumping a parachute with forced opening (I made my first jump after a 30 minutes briefing and a bit of practice). And surely I can't imagine paratrooper battalion on AFF training!

And they are cheaper too, I guess. Though special forces or reconnaissance units use rectangular (or maybe even elliptic ) canopies.

Yea if the Army can stretch a S/L first jump course into three weeks of hell I'd hate to see what they'd do with AFF. (BTW the Freefall school is 4 weeks)

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[NickDG 23]

While the military does have longer training periods, the rank and file once jump qualified doesn't stay current enough for the use of ram-airs to be practical.

The era of mass drops is probably over anyway . . .

I just read somewhere that the British Paratroopers will still be called Paras, but will no longer be trained at all in parachute jumping.

The Russians are the ones who got it right during the Cold War. They subsidized civilian sport parachuting to the point it was almost free. Any soviet citizen could train and jump for just a few Kopecs and at one time they had 3-million experienced sport jumpers who they knew could be quickly drafted into military service.

NickD BASE 194

[Yossarian 0]

where did u read that about the paras? i heard that was one of those rumours to spring from the new white paper, from the same rumour mill that proposed increasing funding of the 1st patrol boat squadron whilst scrapping all of its ships... last i heard (from a para, not the most reliable of sources on the paras (not being sarcastic)) they were actually increasing the number to be trained on ram-airs as precision for special forces support units becomes more in demand, like the Pathfinders etc.

[NickDG 23]

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23378625-details/MoD+may+scrap+army+parachute+training/article.do

NickD BASE 194

[ZigZagMarquis 9]

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The era of mass drops is probably over anyway . . .

*cough*

Jumping into the Iraq War: a daring combat jump under the cover of darkness deposited the 173rd Airborne Brigade into northern Iraq in March. Its presence virtually sealed off the oil-rich region - War In Iraq

VFW Magazine, August, 2003 by Tim Dyhouse

They couldn't drive to the battlefield, so they did what they do best: jump feet first into the fray. Two battalions of the Army's storied 173rd Airborne Brigade conducted a successful, nighttime parachute drop into northern Iraq on March 26. The brigade, part of the U.S. Army Southern European Task Force, was reactivated in June 2000 and was primed for just such a mission.

It was the biggest combat jump since the invasion of Panama in 1989, and the 173rd's first wartime drop in 35 years, when it jumped near Katum, South Vietnam, during Operation Junction City on Feb. 22, 1967. [On that mission, 845 paratroopers of the 2nd Bn., 503rd Parachute Infantry Regiment (PIR) and A Battery, 3rd Bn., 319th Field Artillery participated.]

For the Iraq jump, some 1,000 173rd paratroopers, Rangers and support personnel dropped after a five-hour flight from Aviano Air Base near their home post at Camp Ederle in Vicenza, Italy. The 2nd Bn., 503rd PIR and the 1st Bn., 508th PIR comprised about 80% of the airborne troops. The rest were engineers, sniper and long-range surveillance teams, Air Force special ops troops, a combat support company and a six-man medical/surgical detachment.

http://www.173rdairborne.com/cbtjumps.htm

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/airborne-jumps.htm

http://www.blackfive.net/main/2004/05/recently_declas.html

[two40 0]

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The Russians are the ones who got it right during the Cold War. They subsidized civilian sport parachuting to the point it was almost free. Any soviet citizen could train and jump for just a few Kopecs and at one time they had 3-million experienced sport jumpers who they knew could be quickly drafted into military service.

NickD BASE 194

heh, that's pretty interesting.

thanks for all the answers

[fastphil 0]

The Roundie, with it's perfect rotational symmetry, is the shape with the highest area for a given length of perimeter; that, and they are cool.

Got round jumps...

[Lok 0]

Very good question!

The ground training on the Army parachute course (5 weeks duration in my time) is practically similar in learning subjects with a round static line course in sport parachuting (very rare today) or a RAPS course with some differences in landing and exit technique.

Why take so long? in my opinion for the perfection of PLF technique...
The majority of ground training was PLF training using various training facilities.
This is vary important for the Army.
In a mass drop, especially in war time, if you get injured?, broke leg or even twist......for the Army you are a combat casualty and this is not good at all...
Fall rate for round canopies is higher than square and this is the main reason Army prefer for mass drops to use round canopies instead of square. Commandos are less vulnerable in enemy attack (they stay less time in the air).
But as the fall rate is higher, PLF is the only effective landing technique for safe landing in a unknown zone with maybe many unknown obstacles (physical or technical).
So a well trained paratrooper must be taught the perfect PLF landing.
Many French Foreign Legion commandos jump for first time in combat (in Indochina 50 years before) in the battle of Dien Bie Phu, without proper ground training and were severe casualties in the ground.

Second very important reason, for use of round canopies in the paratrooper training is that they open very quickly.
T-10, MC-1B,C etc open all automatically after exit using static line and they don't take more than 200ft if you jump for a Chinook helicopter or UH-1H Huey.
If you jump from a fast C-130 Hercules, then doesn't take more than few feet.
This is vary important through in combat operations the mass drops are made (sometimes) from 300-500ft, the minimum altitude.
Of course and square parachute can open very quickly if packed properly (base packing techniques) but there are and other combinated reasons that make rounds better choice for mass drops.
Round canopies are less manuvrable than squares................those if the jump is a low altitude 300ft mass drop with exit separation less than 1 sec between the paratroopers, the separation in the ground will be very small and the unit can be reorganized very quickly and start fighting immediately.

This is possible practically only using round canopies, especially for paratroopers with 10-15 training jumps.
Small ground separation using squares is possible only for experience skydivers..........for low experience jumpers, the high forward speed of square canopies is a problem.

Keep in mind also that a paratrooper jumping in combat from 300ft and 125 mph C-130 speed has 1 sec to check his canopy, 1 sec to release his Bergen and one sec to be preparate for PLF..........using a fast travelling square this is a problem....

Parachute operation capability for a Modern army is absolute essential.
Maybe in Afghanistan the terrain doesn't help and in Iraq the fighting is on the cities but in other places around the world can be used and in very effective mode.

What happens in British army is absolute a disaster for the moral of the para units also involved in combat operations).
The army of a powerful country, with 60 years history in combat paradrops, stop parachuting training!!!!!????!!!??? This is very funny, unbelievable................there is no real reason, except of fu@@ing politicians take decisions about armed forces, and trying to save some money for their government "social program"......


p.s I agree with Nick that East counties and Soviet Union were many years ahead in parachuting.....

I jump with Spetnaz years before in Bulgaria using a D-6 Russian parachute from an An-2.....
Practically was the same as Free-fall with a pilot chute opened with static line immediately after the exit.
Then you just pull the ripcord after 5-7 sec or the automatic devise (similar to FX) will open your chute...
Very Wicked, the AK-47 in our chest and the Bergen on the back like the HAHO/HALO jumpers.

All their paratroopers were Free fall qualified and had packing certificate...

The D-6 Russian parachute could be modified for total free fall operation and the ancient An-2 (very slow and wood made) was stealth in every western ground radar.
Could fly over enemy territory's main highways for infiltration of raider teams and give the same contrast in AWACS aircraft monitors as a automobile!!!!!!

[SWATcop 0]

Having "been there done that" when I was in the 82nd Airborne Division. I can tell you those jumps are made at night with an exit altitude of 800 feet in training (500 feet in combat) usually from six jet transport aircraft with paratroopers loaded to the MAX with combat equipment. Can you imagine this many guys jumping that close to the ground and each other with the ability to steer? Even with T-10s there are frequent entanglements.

http://news.soc.mil/imagery/75th/__030803-A-8960E-005.jpg

Kevin

Muff Brother #4041
Team Dirty Sanchez #467

[NickDG 23]

>>*cough*<< Back at ya . . .

There will always be a need for limited parachute Ops, but I was referring to drops on the scale of the Normandy invasion during WWII.

BTW, the now merged Irvin/Para-Flite Parachute Company just received a contract to replace all the Army's T-10 systems, all 53,000 of them, with the T-11 by 2008. This is still a round parachute system, but has an improved harness which will fit 95 percent of all male soldiers and five percent of all female soldiers . . .

They are also now manufacturing the new MC-6 which will be the latest Special Forces rig which is, of course, a double ram air system.

NickD BASE 194

[gcalder 0]

If you end up landing in a bunch of trees I think that you would prefer a round.

[LouDiamond 1]

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BTW, the now merged Irvin/Para-Flite Parachute Company just received a contract to replace all the Army's T-10 systems, all 53,000 of them, with the T-11 by 2008.

The T-11 nomenclature is used by Paraflite but it may or may not be known as that when it is actually done being tested and eventually fielded.

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They are also now manufacturing the new MC-6 which will be the latest Special Forces rig which is, of course, a double ram air system

I believe you are confusing the Raider/Intruder. The MC-6 uses round canopies. The Raider/Intruder is currently being evaluated along with other manufacturers systems to replace the MC-4. In fact, there will be seminars by the companies at the upcoming PIA Convention discussing this topic.

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[Kimblair13 0]

Because the Army is evil and likes to take something fun and make it as miserable as possible...they take skydiving and put you on a round parachute which equals no fun.

[two40 0]

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Because the Army is evil and likes to take something fun and make it as miserable as possible...they take skydiving and put you on a round parachute which equals no fun.

heh, i didn't know the goal of the army was to have fun...!

[Kimblair13 0]

What! Didn't your recruiter tell you that the Army was fun?

[B.A.D.D. 0]

the army uses rounds to deploy troops to otherwise hard to get to locations at a low altitude. (Ex: Panama & Grenada 500ft (+/-) on to enemy airfields. by special operations soldiers.) and to give soldiers confidence in themselves and equiptment. during the 1st Gulf War there was a parachute jump in a secure location as a show of force. in the war in Iraq there were at least 3.( the 173rd jumped into a secure location.) the reasons the army uses rounds was already brought up and answered, because it's easy to train and they come pretty much straight down.(depending on the wind) the army does have somewhat steerable rounds(dash 10's) usually used for special operation personal. (they are more inclined not to run into each other) other than that you have to go to military freefall school to play with the fun chutes.

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