Goin Low on a Big Way....

[jumpinjackflash 0]

Ok, last weekend (actually two ago now), I had the pleasure of getting on a few big ways.

It was immensely nerve racking. I wanted to do my best and not blow it. My previous invites (two) led to me simply ending up elsewhere in the sky. Not part of the formation

So, the first ten way, un freaking believeable. Beautiful. We made five points, I've got vid, it was cool beyond words. That's when it got interesting.

Next attempt was fine, however, on the transition to the second point, the middle folded up, and someone came down on me... Game over.

Third attempt was equally interesting, without going into detail, I managed to swoop in at an amazing speed without slowing sufficiently to take grips. Sucked, made interesting vid though...

The issue I had, was going low. It was the first time I had been under that many people in the sky. I stayed with them, never able to float back up but in the general vicinity. I hung around till pull time, looked up, looked left, looked right and was absolutely wigging out.

The thought of someone tracking over my airpspace, not seeing me, and me deploying and them falling in to me gave me a serious freaking case of the willies. Blew my mind.

In fact, the second time, I hesitated and found myself reaching for it at 3k, which for me is about 500 feet low....

It was all good and all, but still I hated that feeling. In fact, I wasn't near as bothered about blowing my slot as I was about having a whole bunch of peeps above my head at pull time.

So, what I'm looking for guys/gals, is what do you do when it's pull time and theres a party above you?

Any tips/tricks/ideas so that I can calm down a bit? What do you when you go low (lol as if you guys are still going low!!!)?

It was the first time in many many jumps that I felt STRONG FEAR. I don't wanna be smoked from above.
I can't quite shake the feeling, kind of like someone behind you... Freaky. I'm all about training, learning how to stay alive, so please share?

Blues,


jjf

It's a gas, gas, gas...

[AggieDave 6]

I'm a pretty big guy and have fought going low my entire skydiving career, so maybe I'll be able to help you out a bit.

First of all, the obvious, don't be in that situation.

If you're diving its about evaluating the the swoop to your quadrant for your slot in the formation. You want to get into your quadrant on level with the skydive. Sounds simplistic, it is, if you're having a problem with it, then you'll want to start your swoop, slow it down a bit and evaluate your position/altitude to the formation, then adjust as needed. If you're still high, give it a little more, if you're on level or potentally about to go low, slow it down. Remember, as a formation builds it tends to slow down.

You want to park roughly 20ft out from a formation for your final approach, in your quadrant infront of your slot. Start, coast stop and pick up grips.

Now, what happens when you do go low?

Stay with the formation (i.e. don't leave) until break off. Keep from under it and don't give up on trying to get back up until break off. I'm sure you know about turning 90deg from the formation and dearching (like a cat with your spine)...

At breakoff, turn from the formation and track your ass off, track as hard as you can. Clear your airspace as you track, you can move your head around (as opposed to barrel rolling which will slow your track and speed up your decent, defeating your goal of horizontal seperation) to check every where except directly above you. Then again, if the skill level is so low on the dive that someone is tracking directly above you...well, maybe you should evaluate the risks/rewards for being on the dive.


A good coach can help you with your swoop and docks to really nail down how to dive as hard and fast as you can while judging your approach, I'm a big fan of Skydive U for training, but there are plenty of other great RW coaches out there. This is somthing that you can't really learn in a tunnel, unfortunately.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[el_chester 4]

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So, the first ten way, un freaking believeable. Beautiful.

Congratulations on theat first, JumpingJack ()

As for going low... a big part of success in big ways is fallrate. Not only because of people going low, but because different fallrates will mess the solidity of the piece, so work out jumpsuits and weights beforehand. On a 10 way this should not be too big of a problem, if most people have enough experience and awareness. Should you already have gone low, it's a good idea already to know the optimal way to go back up, IN PLACE before you end up there. The tunnel is great for this, but I've also practised this on 2-ways and it's fun. And if you're still low by breakoff, you should all have a plan in the group. The following in no way THE rule, you should really have strict rules within your group (be it a 10 way or a 100+ way). After a couple of events I have been at I have heard the following advise: If you're still below the formation when you reach 1000ft before breakoff, start tracking the hell out of there now (but not before), AND be particularly obvious with your wave-off before pulling AND pull a bit lower (supposedly everyone has an assigned pull altitude they are sticking to, so if you go a couple of hundred feet below that, you're supposed to have clear air, no matter what.)

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[AggieDave] A good coach can help you with your swoop and docks to really nail down how to dive as hard and fast as you can while judging your approach, I'm a big fan of Skydive U for training, but there are plenty of other great RW coaches out there. This is somthing that you can't really learn in a tunnel, unfortunately.

while I agree with AggieDave that you can't learn to judge speed and distance for diving to the formation, there are tons of stuff relevant for bigways to be learnt in a tunnel. I am currently focusing on bigways, and have spent 80+ mins in the tunnel lately.

The most important skill you'll learn is to float. You will learn exactly how to slow down in place, and it will amaze you how easy it is. Recently I have been on some 100+ ways where people who have gone low just spread like a big X and fly all over the place, while a person who's done tunnel time, will extend legs back, extend arms forward (the same way a football unpire would signal a touchdown), and bring knees down, buttocks up, and shoulders down. That person is an elevator going straight up, fast!

Another great drill is the stability drill, where the instructor pushes you down, pulls you, takes the air from you, spins you, and your task is to keep solid, not let him move you. This is done by countering his force with all sorts of semi-weird positions so as not to allow him to mess you up. Of course if you learn to fly so solid in a formation, you are not going to let a bad flyer destroy the base, you are absorbing his bad, and this is expected from you once you have docked. (you are not supposed to just dock and relax, you should dock and then you fly all the way to breakoff helping the formation fall fast, solid and in shape)

For now you still have a relatively low jump number, but after about 250 jumps, you will be eligible to attend the big-way camps which are great fun, and a great place to learn, because it's OK not to get into that 36-way, these are practice jumps. I have attended the Perris camp (Kate Cooper, Tony Domenico, Dan BC, Larry Henderson) as well as a couple in Mexico and in Skydive Dallas with Rob Laidlaw from skydive U, one of my skydiving heroes - and a great guy too (had to be Canadian ).

Keep the bigways safe... this is hypocritical advise from someone who on his 10th jump did a 4-way where nobody had more than 20 jumps. The cameraman (our "certified instructor" with over 3000 jumps) thought it would be a fun idea. I am so pissed off at the many times he put us in danger when we didn't know better... (partcularly that horseshoe on my 72nd jump arghh! - but that's another story, another thread, another day...)

Hope this helps.

--
Be careful giving advice. Wise men don't need it, and fools won't heed it.

[IvanPeters 0]

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In fact, the second time, I hesitated and found myself reaching for it at 3k, which for me is about 500 feet low....

It was all good and all, but still I hated that feeling. In fact, I wasn't near as bothered about blowing my slot as I was about having a whole bunch of peeps above my head at pull time.

So, what I'm looking for guys/gals, is what do you do when it's pull time and theres a party above you?

Don't get into that situation in the first place. And by that I don't mean "don't go low". I mean that you shouln't be "hanging around" below everyone else all the way until pull time. There should be an agreed break off which allows time for the highest puller to do a proper track. There should not be a party still going on at anyone's pull time.

At the agreed break-off altitude you should track away. If it is clear that you are not going to make it in in time (say 1000 feet before break off) then track off and get out of the way (preferably not along jump-run).

Swooping takes some practice. And even people with 1000's of jumps get it wrong occasionally. You can expect to do it a few more times. So, talk to the people organising your jumps and make sure there is a plan for when things go wrong.

Ivan

[DanG 1]

Don't assume that because you read it on DZ.com that the rule for large formations is break off 1,000 feet early if you are low.

Talk to your group and decide on a plan if someone goes low. I prefer that people stay as close as possible until break-off so everyone can keep track of where the low person is. 1,000 feet is only 5 seconds, and a lot of good trakcers will catch up to you even if they give you a 5 second lead.

Anyway, the point of this post is to make sure your group has a plan which covers going low, and then stick to the plan.

- Dan G

[jumpinjackflash 0]

Dave, thanks.

I totally agree with your first point. Don't go low is the best advice.

Regarding the swooping, I'm working on all of the above and I've actually been pleased with my progress. Though I've got hundreds of jumps to go, I feel pretty good about my control so far.

Oddly, out of all the times I've gone low (about 4 now) only one was due to poor swooping technique. The others were due to blown exits, or funneled formations, after that, I just couldn't seem to float back up and get back in my slot...

I think it's because I'm looking up and spilling too much air, instead of turning my head sideways and continuing the de-arch, cupping enough air as I climb...

I'll keep working on it though.


Staying with the formation, tracking my ass off at separation time, and clearing my airspace is exactly what I'm doing. So it feels good to know I'm focussing on the right thing.

It's just a creepy thing to have all those people above me!


Thanks Dave




J

It's a gas, gas, gas...

[jumpinjackflash 0]

I never assume anything. There are a number of people on this site that I've spent the last year watching and reading, and I've found thier advice to be wise and sensible. Usually if it's good advice, more than three will agree and it'll match what my teachers/instructors say.

The talk with the group is a given. I can definitly see the importance in that.

Nice words Dan. I agree with the planning thing. Plan the Dive, Dive the Plan.

The staying close makes sense too, it just is a bit freaky. Hopefully I'll learn to stay high, because low simply bites.


J

It's a gas, gas, gas...

[jumpinjackflash 0]

Truly, Beer is in order. THANKS!

I got fifteen minutes at Perris with Pat McGowan in Feb this year. I learned alot. I wish we had a tunnel here in the Midwest, I'd be jumping my ass off in it.

The camps sound great. I definitly want to put it on my list of things to do next year. Along with a good canopy control camp that should just about suck up any extra cash I have in 05.

Oh well, you plays, you pays...


As far as the safe aspect goes??? DEFINITLY. I have no desire to become a statistic. I continue to devour everything I can in regards to this sport. I love skydiving more than anything I've ever done. That said, I intend to do it well into my golden years.

Key being of course, never becoming complacent, always working hard to learn more, and listening to those that are sucessful at it.


Big thanks


J

It's a gas, gas, gas...

[billvon 3,111]

>So, what I'm looking for guys/gals, is what do you do when it's pull time
>and theres a party above you?

Track some more, make sure you're not directly under them and pull either lower or higher than they do. This can put you low; I've pulled a little under 2000 feet on several big ways. That's one reason I don't have a snively canopy that takes 600 feet to open.

Once you are open, get on rear risers and get ready to turn. Most problems during the opening phase on a big-way aren't freefall collisions but canopy collisions, so get ready to turn. Your canopy will turn via rear riser even if you are still opening. If you have a smaller canopy, you can use your legs to turn it during (or shortly after) opening, although the risks of giving yourself a spinner go up with a small canopy.

>What do you when you go low (lol as if you guys are still going low!!!)?

1. Dress for success. If you use booties, consider getting some webbed gloves; they let you balance the drag of the booties without driving forward, so you can stick your legs out more. Consider swoop cords; they are great at increasing your drag momentarily, and they retract when you don't need them (usually.)

2. Practice. I have seen a great many people go sailing by the formation with their knees dropped and their feet on their butts. That's not a slow-fall position. The best position for slow-fall is spread out as flat as you can be. Practice this by lying on the ground and trying to push your hips off the ground with just toes and fingers. You won't be able to, but those are the muscles you'll need.

Also, get into the tunnel (or get a coach and jump) and practice this. I've gotten down to 85mph with my 'regular' bigway suit (light cotton, small swoop cords.) Make sure you can get flat without dropping your knees.

3. Conserve your altitude. Stay 5 feet high as you come in; alternatively, do a "stadium" approach as you come in, gradually dropping down until you are level with the formation. Do not get even a few inches low; keep a little extra altitude in your pocket in case the fall rate slows down suddenly.

3a. Know when to put on the brakes. If you can see the formation getting visibly larger, start slowing down. It's a lot easier to stop and start again than it is to pass the formation and have to circle around again because you came in too fast.

4. Stay on level, and then dock on or slightly below level. It can be dangerous to remain high, come in, dock a foot above the formation, and then relax. You start out high and then only get higher as you stop arching. Before you dock make sure you are seeing bellies, not backpacks - that ensures you are on level with the base, and will not contribute to its floatiness.

Once you are docked, keep flying with the base. You should be able to drop grips at any time and not move. If you feel tension in the grips it is most likely your fault - drive forward by sticking your legs out, and stay down in your slot by arching.

5. If you do go low, do not look up! Looking up forces your body to arch. Instead, turn sideways and drop your head to look over your shoulder at it. That way you are still maintaining that body position.

As soon as you go low, back out to a "safe" area that is not under the formation or the approaching jumpers, then come back up. Coming up under the formation is a sure way to funnel it.

6. If you cannot get back up, follow the dive plan. Sometimes it's track off if you can't get up within a few seconds. Usually it's stay with the base until breakoff, then leave with the outer wave and do a really good track. Remember that a really good track is flat and slow-falling; you don't want to arrow out of the sky like a safe. The slower you fall in the track the more time you have to get clear.

[kallend 2,146]

It's not how fast you can go, it's how fast you can stop that determines how quickly you can swoop to a formation. Going fast is easy. Stopping fast takes practice.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[AggieDave 6]

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Stopping fast takes practice.

And some folks are built for it better then others. 6'1" and 150lbs can stop much more quickly then my fat ass when diving to a formation...since I know that, I can anticipate better.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[happythoughts 0]

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Don't assume that because you read it on DZ.com that the rule for large formations is break off 1,000 feet early if you are low.

You wouldn't read it from me.

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Talk to your group and decide on a plan if someone goes low. I prefer that people stay as close as possible until break-off so everyone can keep track of where the low person is. 1,000 feet is only 5 seconds, and a lot of good trackers will catch up to you even if they give you a 5 second lead.

I agree.

It doesn't have to be a good tracker to catch them. Some people think they are tracking and aren't. They are tracking at too steep an angle. They go "down", not "flat and away". An average tracker can catch them.

The most dangerous thing is when the other people lose sight of you. If they see you, they can adjust and go around you.

Stay with the formation until breakoff altitude and then Track.

To get back up - turn sideways so that you can see the formation, head to the side and flat, de-arch.

[kallend 2,146]

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Quote

Don't assume that because you read it on DZ.com that the rule for large formations is break off 1,000 feet early if you are low.

You wouldn't read it from me.

Quote

Talk to your group and decide on a plan if someone goes low. I prefer that people stay as close as possible until break-off so everyone can keep track of where the low person is. 1,000 feet is only 5 seconds, and a lot of good trackers will catch up to you even if they give you a 5 second lead.

I agree.

It doesn't have to be a good tracker to catch them. Some people think they are tracking and aren't. They are tracking at too steep an angle. They go "down", not "flat and away". An average tracker can catch them.

.

This even happens on "by invitation only" big ways. Some people with 1000s of jumps are still lousy trackers. And I don't mean those that have less than optimal body shapes. Some very experienced skydivers have very poor tracking technique.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Scrumpot 1]

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In fact, the second time, I hesitated and found myself reaching for it at 3k, which for me is about 500 feet low....

No disrespect, but if "reaching for it at 3k" is already 500ft below what you are currently comfortable with ...you shouldn't be putting yourself into these situations (of even getting on 10+ ways in the 1st place) yet either! Routinely tracking to SUB 3k on "BIG WAYS" before deploying, and being comfortable/capable with that is absolutely pre-requisite INHO. Not your fault, you are just not there yet. ...You need to build to that, and be PATIENT in actually getting there. Yes, it's an absolute BLAST in making new accomplishments (being invited and participating on 10+ ways being one of them), but also knowing when that is above your current progression and capabilities levels is the sign of an even more mature skydiver.

Everyone seems to have such an urge these days to simply "rush" things
It's not always the best thing to do AT ALL in the 1st place. ...Just something more to think about that's all. I can get into techniques for getting back up, what to do in that situation etc., etc., and I'm sure many in here for you will. At your ADMITTED comfortability level though, you may want to consider not getting yourself into the situation (or potential for it) in the 1st place though, ...yet. Until you (for you) are more ready.

Make sense?
Again, no "dissing" going on here. Just some more fodder for thought that's all. Which it appears as though you ARE already doing. That FEAR there is (was) there for you, for a reason. Continue to reflect and consider on that. That is good.

Hope my input (such that it is) has also helped.
Blue Skies!
-Grant

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[jumpinjackflash 0]

No Disprespect taken at all.

I completely agree and? The first big way went great, the next two were a little uglier.

Know what I did after that? I sat out the rest of them. Truly, I had questions, I wasn't going back up there until they were answered. Not that day.

Also? All of my work at this point has been two way and four way focus with good teachers.

And? This is why I posted it. I wanted to know more. Wanted to understand what I was doing wrong, which I've got TEN TIMES better understanding at this point.

My favorite advice of all? DON"T GET LOW.

Which truly is Zen in my book. However, my biggest training issue with skydiving at this point in my career? The thing I figure will keep me alive?

Is having an answer for something when shit goes wrong. I figure the most dangerous thing is not having that answer ready to implement. We don't really have any time to be thinking about it when it's hitting the fan. Need to be able to react and that's what I'm looking for in all situations, well ahead of them ocurring.

Anyhow, I'm one hundred percent on board with your advice.

My answer to that is I won't stop doing big ways, I'll continue "little by little" on the jumps with the skydivers that I know, know me, and will work with me. But? My focus will remain on small groups, where I'm comfortable.

With a couple big ways here or there to learn. However, per everyones advice I think there are a few key points.

Plan the dive, Dive the plan.

Have an answer for what the plan is when someone goes low (which, on those dives we did)

Work on my swooping and holding my slot, i.e. don't get in the position in the first place.

When low, turn 90 to the formation, dearch like a mofo and try to get up. If it doesn't happen, at breakoff, follow a good straight track and fly my ass off.... Assure clear air and pull.

I'll work hard on all of the above, as well as the other great advice shared.


Thanks for the help man, well received.


Jack

P.S. Damnit I love this site.

It's a gas, gas, gas...

[jumpinjackflash 0]

The first and second dive rocked.

I swooped in and pulled up hard, right into my slot.

Of course I'd be a dumbass to claim "I meant to do that"

Because of course a good amount of it was just great timing and luck, though I did have control and was giving it all I had.

Third time around? LOL

Made good vid. I was freaked when I left the plane because unlike the other two times, the formation was "all over the sky", lol, prolly me, but how the hell would I know?

Anyhow, you see the first five take grips and I come screaming into the frame, way too damn fast, slip right through the center and fly off through the sky.


Yep, I sure felt like a dumbass.





j

It's a gas, gas, gas...