JUDYJ 0 #26 February 18, 2007 QuoteIf the pilot in this case is qualified let him prove it and earn the ratings i agree.. I think the "good ole boys" subscribe to a whole other school of thinking.... thanks! IF you are going to be Stupid - you better be tough! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratostar 5 #27 February 18, 2007 QuoteIf the FAA was aware that he was exercising the privileges of a commercial pilot with only a private lisc they would take swift action. Yea right, sure they would. This isn't my first rodeo.you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratostar 5 #28 February 18, 2007 QuoteDo you think the USPA doesn't check this stuff out?? I would've thought that being a USPA DZ they would keep up with that little bit of info... uh?? No they don't check to see if a DZO has the proper tickets, but they do have you sign a paper saying you promiss to be a good boy/girl and play by the rules, yet no one really holds them to the fire. QuoteI don't jump there.. It's not in California.. as a RN.. you see that my work and moral ethic makes me feel that if there is something I know to make others safe and I fail to respond to that.. then I'm just as guilty if I committed the act that led to harm. I am a patient advocate completely. So as a skydiver..I don't have an issue today or any day of my life for standing up for what is right and what I believe can keep other's safe.*** Perhaps 'good ole boys' need to rethink some thoughts... The only rethinking done in that camp is how to CYA. Well the good old boy network has been in play for over 30 years now and many of the players are still on the field, so I don't think it will go away anytime soon. You sound like an outstanding citizen and we could use more honest people in the sport like yourselfyou can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JUDYJ 0 #29 February 18, 2007 OK.. so help me CYA.. not my home DZ and not where I jump anymore.. so what happens to me if I say something?? I mean is it like they break my legs or black sky kind of curse on me for not playing by the boys rules?? IF you are going to be Stupid - you better be tough! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratostar 5 #30 February 18, 2007 Quoteso what happens to me if I say something?? I mean is it like they break my legs or black sky kind of curse on me for not playing by the boys rules?? Well I have seen attempts: 1. To get jumpers fired from their job as well as the wife of jumper. 2. People traveling many miles (over 100) to "have a chat" with jumpers. It didn't look to me much like any "chat" I would like to have. 3. Rigs tampered with, main and reserves. 4. Cars and airplanes damaged. 5. People backballed by a number of DZ's 6. USPA turn their backs on those who spoke up and basicly called them liers to there face at the FSDO, even with a pile of proof sitting on the FAA's table. 7. When most of that shit didn't go as they would have liked, then they went after the new DZO's where jumpers went to. That is the short list, if I really put some more thought into it I could think of other things. I can't tell you what to do other then try asking Sparky if you know him.you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JUDYJ 0 #31 February 18, 2007 I know him.. I know him well.. IF you are going to be Stupid - you better be tough! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JUDYJ 0 #32 February 18, 2007 and I thought doctor's were a difficult group to work with.. love this sport... doing the RIGHT thing.. is only relative if you are doing what others want you to do,,,nmmmm IF you are going to be Stupid - you better be tough! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #33 February 18, 2007 Quote So what are one's options when you learn that a pilot of a dropzone (and owner) isn't really licensed to fly jump planes.. just licensed as a "private pilot??" 1. Turn them into the FAA and quit skydiving. 2. Shut up about it forever and keep jumping. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peckerhead 0 #34 February 18, 2007 If you are going to make an accusation that a crime has been commited you really should have all your ducks in a row. I have made hundreds of jumps with a private pilot at the controls. It used to be common for PPs to build hours flying jumpers. I know many of these guys went on to get their commercial rating and they now have real jobs flying as professional pilots. Drop zone brats who grew up flying at the DZ. It may not be as common as it once was but it still happens. Believe it or not there are still small clubs out there with private pilots and some of these guys are awesome pilots. I would really like to see some credible reference that clearly states that free flight time is equal to compensation. Tom or others please post it here for all to see. As with most federal regs the wording is usually chickenshit like "may be" or "can be" Either the regs have changed, or they are now being enforced, or they are still up for interpretation. I have been told by numerous DZO's that free stick time does not equal pay. As far as saftey you could have a very experienced private pilot with thousands of hours flying jumpers or some young buck who just got his commercial rating....Sorry, but I would rather have the old sage. Now before you all get pissy I agree that jump pilots should have a commercial rating. But not having one does not make you a bad or unsafe pilot. I am not even convinced it is illegal under every circumstance. Kinda like the 100 jump wonder with a coach rating. When shit hits the fan I would put more faith in the 1000 jump D license guy with no rating. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tombuch 0 #35 February 18, 2007 Make sure he is only a private pilot, and then call the local FAA office. Ask to speak with a "Safety Counselor." Tell them about the problem without mentioning a name. Explain that you really don't want this pilot to get in trouble, but that you "think" he is violating the regulation. Ask if they can follow-up with friendly encouragement and a warning, and only then tell the FAA who the pilot is. A good safety counselorwill follow up with a warning and then watch the DZ. Of course not all of them will be so supportive, and if he encounters resistance from your pilot friend, all bets are off. I would not withhold this one from the FAA. So as a nurse, if you saw somebody practicing medicine without any license or training, would you stay quiet. What if the person was really good at it?Tom Buchanan Instructor Emeritus Comm Pilot MSEL,G Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
base283 0 #36 February 18, 2007 If you are really evil, you could blackmail him for free jumps. HA! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #37 February 18, 2007 QuoteI would really like to see some credible reference that clearly states that free flight time is equal to compensation. Tom or others please post it here for all to see. In the USA, the FAA considers the flight time compensation. There is a case, dated August 21, 1997, where the pilot was found to be in violation for flying jumpers at a club with a private pilot's license. It is in the PIA handout from 2001. I'm sure you can google it. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,146 #38 February 18, 2007 Quote A broader answer: Private pilots flying jumpers is a very bad idea. The aircraft is loaded close to max weight, and the balance point can sometimes be out of limits. The aircraft is flown at slow speed and steep bank angles, and is often close to a stall. That's tough flying. It should be handled by a commercial pilot who has been trained in aerodynamics, and has significant experience flying with ground reference in unusual configurations. The private pilot certification doesn't cover that. My private training covered that. The extra training for a commercial certificate amounts to a mere 10 HOURS. It does NOT cover the real issues involved in flying jumpers - flying with an open door, people hanging outside, assymetric drag, people shifting around inside the plane, abrupt changes in weight and configuration... What we really need is a sign-off to fly jump planes, just like the FAA requires for towing gliders. This isn't about skill, it's about legality.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrewwhyte 1 #39 February 18, 2007 For those who claim it is your duty to call the authorities-if you see someone selling drugs on the DZ do you: a) avoid that person? b) tell the DZSO or DZO? c) visit your local police dept and give them the details? What if you see someone using drugs in the evening? Do you still have the duty to call the law? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NickDG 23 #40 February 18, 2007 We had a DZO in Southern California in the late 80s who flew jumpers with a PP license and also worked on the plane without an A&P license. In his case it wasn't an "old hand" thumbing his nose at the FAA, it was just he was cheap and greedy SOB. He sucked every dime he could out of what used to be a pretty good DZ then cashed out, bought a yacht, and sailed off into the sunset. I agree that "jump pilot" should be a stand alone rating. When a pilot wants to tack a rating onto his ticket, like a sea plane rating, he goes to the FAA for the stamp, but he first goes to "Joe's Seaplane School" for the training. If I recall correctly, there have been some attempts at "Jump Pilot School" in the past but it doesn't seem to have caught on. Some DZs will advertise their pilots have trained at someplace like "Flight Safety" in Florida, but the emphasis there doesn't fully address the role of a jump pilot. Someone like Chris (diverdriver) should start such a school. But, it still wouldn't work unless we (individual jumpers & USPA) demanded prospective pilots attend. This would put the "pro" back in pro-active. Sooner or later after some innocent tandem passenger is killed on the way to altitude some smart lawyer is going to stand in front of a wuffo jury and say, "Sure, Sky King here had all the proper FAA ratings, but he didn't know squat about parachute operations!" BTW, Chris, as one "Lister" to another, nice job on the accident database . . . NickD BASE 194 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JUDYJ 0 #41 February 18, 2007 As a nurse.. as human,, I intervene whenever an unfair act is in progress. I don't believe in passively living... on or off the dropzone. I have taken heat before and I can stand my ground alone or with support. Guess I am more fishing for additional info to understand why private pilots are flying jump planes??? IF you are going to be Stupid - you better be tough! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JUDYJ 0 #42 February 18, 2007 Quote We had a DZO in Southern California in the late 80s who flew jumpers was this guy safe or also cheap and put everyone at risk with his tactics? IF you are going to be Stupid - you better be tough! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy_Copland 0 #43 February 18, 2007 QuoteI don't believe in passively living... on or off the dropzone. Someones got too much time on their hands. Edit: I get the impression you're just a self righteous meddler who has posted this when you have already taken action and are looking for support or basking in your own glory. Something like that, but thats just my personal opinion.1338 People aint made of nothin' but water and shit. Until morale improves, the beatings will continue. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JUDYJ 0 #44 February 18, 2007 wow... and you base this opinion on what>>> IF you are going to be Stupid - you better be tough! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JUDYJ 0 #45 February 18, 2007 QuoteIf you are going to make an accusation that a crime has been commited you really should have all your ducks in a row. I think I do... he flies jumpers in a commercial arena and only has a PPL.. IF you are going to be Stupid - you better be tough! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NickDG 23 #46 February 18, 2007 >>was this guy safe or also cheap and put everyone at risk with his tactics?<< I have an A&P ticket and I asked him once who worked on his aircraft (as I was looking for extra income at the time) and he gave me a vague, "some guy over at a nearby airport," thing. But, basically, at night he was doing it himself. One day the step on a gear leg broke off his Cessna and overnight, when no one was around, he welded it back on. The gear leg on a Cessna (the sprung type leg) is a heat treated part and if you apply heat, like from a welding torch, the entire gear leg must be heat treated again. Well, it held up for a few days of rough runway operations and then we were taxiing out and I was sitting in the door with my legs dangling when the gear leg failed. It damn near caught my legs under the fuselage. I had it out with him after that and shortly left and went to work in Elsinore. I'll admit turning him in to the FAA just wasn't in me at the time . . . as I hated them too. Then this same guy, after one of his jumpmasters put out a student without attaching the static line and the student went in, pulled the static line and deployment bag off the dead student's gear in order to save his, and the DZs reputation. And it almost worked until the distraught jumpmaster did the right thing and came clean. Hopefully, marginal operators like him are not as prevalent as they used to be . . . NickD BASE 194 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peckerhead 0 #47 February 18, 2007 Quote In the USA, the FAA considers the flight time compensation. There is a case, dated August 21, 1997, where the pilot was found to be in violation for flying jumpers at a club with a private pilot's license. It is in the PIA handout from 2001. I'm sure you can google it. If that is true then it is the only case I have ever heard of. What action was taken against this pilot? I found nothing on google. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverdriver 7 #48 February 18, 2007 QuoteQuote In the USA, the FAA considers the flight time compensation. There is a case, dated August 21, 1997, where the pilot was found to be in violation for flying jumpers at a club with a private pilot's license. It is in the PIA handout from 2001. I'm sure you can google it. If that is true then it is the only case I have ever heard of. What action was taken against this pilot? I found nothing on google. Because if it's not on google..... it never happened.Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
icevideot 0 #49 February 18, 2007 How exactly do you avoid your jump pilot? If you go to another dz, what about friends and innocent first timers who jump there. Let's change that from someone selling drugs at the dz to someone doing drugs during jumping. Is your response still going to be the same? Quotea) avoid that person? b) tell the DZSO or DZO? c) visit your local police dept and give them the details? Grey areas are always that....grey. What would be the obstacle of a qualified private pilot getting his commercial license? Is there a chance an unqualified pilot could give an insurance company an opportunity not to pay even if it may not have contributed? I am thinking in cases where life insurance doesn't allow flying with a private pilot. I don't have these answers myself. I would only likely learn them the hard way. Do you know the answers for sure? In a society where a fast food place can be sued for serving hot coffee in a drive through, we have to take extra care to cross our t's and dot our i's. If anyone doesn't like that (and I don't) they may as well get over it."... this ain't a Nerf world." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #50 February 18, 2007 QuoteIf that is true then it is the only case I have ever heard of. What action was taken against this pilot? suspended license. I'll have to look and see if I still have the binder from PIA 2001. The case is in there. I'm sure someone else has it as well. The pilot tried to say that because he wasn't getting paid, he didn't need a commercial. But the judge found that because not all the jumpers were members of the club and they paid the DZ for a jump, then the pilot needed a commercial license. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
