Should you wait between cut-away and reserve ?

[lintern 1]

I have some concerns about my reserve drills that I would like to clear up....

1 - I've watched the Breakaway video on how to deal with mals.

It showed a skydiver doing a dummy cutaway and reserve pull whilst in freefall - just to show he could locate his handles.

He put his right hand on the cutaway pad, then went back to an arch. Then he put his left hand on the reserve handle, then went back to an arch.

I thought this was a good idea and tried it for myself.

But when I tried it I quickly started to loose stability and nearly went over on my side - this made me think how I would do it for real.

Say if you had a total mal - as soon as you bring both hands in and place them on your handles (like I have been taught - 1 hand on each handle) you loose stability !

So how would you do it ?

2 - If you had a total mal: would you cut-away or just pull your reserve?

Because with a total mal there may not be enough or any drag to pull the main and risers off you.

3 - If you had a slow mal and spiralling: would you cut away, then arch and go back into freefall, then pull your reserve ?

Or would you put a hand on each handle, pull the cut-away pad followed by the reserve handle ? Is there not a risk of the reserve pilot chute going into the main by doing this though?


It's easy to turn a blind eye to things like this, but if the event ever happened I would regret not clearing it up !

Thanks

[rsibbald 0]

I'm afraid I won't be addressing your questions, because they are ones that there is no "right" answer to and you should talk them through with your instructors.

However, if you practice, you should be able to find that you can bring both hands into your body without losing stability. Try keeping your legs as wide as possible, with your hips forward, and *slowly* get used to bringing your hands into the centre of your body. After you can do this, speed it up until you can do it almost instantly. Hopefully this will give you some more confidence, but please bear in mind that in the event of a cutaway, you will not be falling calmly through the air in a stable arch!

[obelixtim 150]

A total mal... nothing out....pull the reserve....partial mal...something out....cutaway then pull the reserve.....golden rules of skydiving...valid since jumping began.....just like gravity.....

If you are out of control or have a total.....first rule is: STOP the freefall....in this scenario stability is secondary...

Plenty of fatals have occurred because people got fixated on stability and forgot about the planet coming up fast to meet them.....do NOT sacrifice altitude for stability...especially at or below opening altitude....

But its easy to put your hands on the handles without going unstable....just don't de arch as you do so....keep your shoulders, head and legs back as you do so....after you've looked and located your handles first.....of course.....

Practise it on the ground.....then try it at an altitude that you know you can recover stability from if you roll over......

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[phoenixlpr 0]

Reserves are designed to open from any position.
I had some ride. Even with not 100% perfect position, I had line twist on my reserve. So IMHO its easier to handle a line twist than having a bounce in a perfect position...

[thelem 0]

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A total mal... nothing out....pull the reserve....partial mal...something out....cutaway then pull the reserve.....golden rules of skydiving...valid since jumping began.....just like gravity.....

That is definatly not a golden rule, and conflicts with most of the advice I have been given.

If I had a total mal, then I would first cut away and then go for my reserve, because:
1. It means my reserve drills are consistant, I don't waste time thinking "now which reserve drill should I do in this situation"
2. Deploying the reserve could cause the main to depoly - at which point it is better if it is already cut away. The most obvious situation where the main could deploy is a pilot chute in tow (if you count this as a total, if not - point 1). In that situation, emptying the reserve tray could reduce pressure on the main and allow it to clear.

[skydiverton 0]

Having one procedure (cut-away + reserve pull) is much easier to remember.

The only situation you do not have to cut-away (but you can without problems) is when you are absolutely sure there is nothing out.
Even a pilot in tow can cause a dual square situation without a breakaway, because the tension is less when the reserve container is open

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habit,
Especially when you are jumping a sport rig

[billvon 3,111]

>Say if you had a total mal - as soon as you bring both hands in and
> place them on your handles (like I have been taught - 1 hand on
> each handle) you loose stability !

>So how would you do it ?

Bring both hands in and maintain stability. It just takes practice. Alternatively, bring one hand in to your reserve handle and keep the other one out for balance, just like you do during a main pull.

>2 - If you had a total mal: would you cut-away or just pull your reserve?

Nothing out - straight for reserve. Nothing out means a can't-find-the-pud or a hard pull.

>Because with a total mal there may not be enough or any drag to
> pull the main and risers off you.

With a total mal there will be no drag.

>3 - If you had a slow mal and spiralling: would you cut away, then
>arch and go back into freefall, then pull your reserve ?

Cut away and immediately open the reserve. Immediately after a cutaway you are feet into the relative wind, and this is a very good position to open your reserve in.

>Or would you put a hand on each handle, pull the cut-away pad
> followed by the reserve handle ? Is there not a risk of the reserve
> pilot chute going into the main by doing this though?

There is a _very_ small risk of this happening. And if it does? Your reserve will just open faster. Your reserve PC is not attached to your reserve, and if it snags the main, it will still open just fine. Heck, that's how the skyhook is designed to work!

[JohnMitchell 16]

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A total mal... nothing out....pull the reserve....partial mal...something out....cutaway then pull the reserve.....golden rules of skydiving...valid since jumping began.....just like gravity.....

That is definatly not a golden rule, and conflicts with most of the advice I have been given.

If I had a total mal, then I would first cut away and then go for my reserve, because:
1. It means my reserve drills are consistant, I don't waste time thinking "now which reserve drill should I do in this situation"
2. Deploying the reserve could cause the main to depoly - at which point it is better if it is already cut away. The most obvious situation where the main could deploy is a pilot chute in tow (if you count this as a total, if not - point 1). In that situation, emptying the reserve tray could reduce pressure on the main and allow it to clear.

You should be smart enough to think in freefall. If you have a true total, not pilot chute in tow, there is nothing to gain and time to lose by pulling the cutaway handle first. More than one person has impacted with the cutaway handle pulled and no reserve pull. I've had 3 totals over the years, and never had to pull the cutaway handle. A pilot chute in tow is a whole new debate, but not everyone says to cutaway with those, either.

On the stability question, like Billvon says, cutaway/pull reserve, with no delay. Put your feet on your butt when you're reaching for the handles, then throw your arms and hips into an aggresive arch when you cutaway. If you're wearing a camera, turn your head to keep it away from the reserve. I've got about 7 solo cutaways, high speed, low speed, some were spinning, and all were very stable reserve deployments so far .

[obelixtim 150]

Sorry mate...It IS a golden rule.....the advice you've been given contrary to that is bad advice....

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[thelem 0]

I'm still unconvinced.

Until I've had a few more mals, I would rather keep one reserve procedure. Yes, it may only take a fraction of a second to think exactly what I need to do, but then cutting away should take less than a second too.

If you practice a reserve-only drill, that also increases the chance that you will pull the reserve without cutting away when you needed too.

Also, if I had a total, I don't think I would be confident enough in that split second to decide if it was absolutely total, or if I had my pilot chute partly out of the pocket or something.

I've started a poll on this subject, it will be interesting to see what other people think.

[billvon 3,111]

>f I had a total mal, then I would first cut away and then go for my reserve . . .

There's generally not a problem with this procedure as long as you deploy higher so you have the extra time to deal with a total. It does take longer, but as long as you plan for the extra time, it shouldn't be an issue. (and of course there should be no delay.)

[riggerrob 643]

Far better to pull the reserve ripcord IMMEDIATELY after cutting away.
USPA fatality reports are full of "cutaway, waited a while before pulling reserver ripcord, impacted at line stretch on the reserve" type reports.
At the 1993 PIA Symposium, Troy Loney gave a lecture on "Reserve design from the Pilot Chute's Perspective." He illustrated his lecture with videos of test jumps on the (then new) EOS harness/container system. Videos conclusively proved that the best time to deploy a reserve pilot chute is a half second after cutting away.
Troy's worst reserve deployments occurred when he delayed 2 or 3 seconds after cutting away and the pilot chute hesitated in his burble. In a worst-case scenario, if you pulled the reserve ripcord too soon after the cutaway handle and it entangled with the main risers, the main risers would just pull the reserve out quicker, like a Skyhook.

[EDYDO 0]

I am not an instructor and I do not advocate teaching students in this way. However, what you saw on the tape is essentially my personal procedure.

I believe it would be to your benefit to do some more practice pulls in freefall. Instead of bringing one or both arms in, bring your right hand to the cutaway handle or reserve handle and at the same time, bring your left hand over your head. You will find you can fall with stability through an entire skydive in this position.

Another point. You will likely do exactly what you practice. Most are taught to "look red, grab red, look silver, grab silver, pull red, pull silver". I have seen too many who had difficulty with the "pull red" part because of the strength of the velcro. I have added to my thought process and pull practice to instead, add in "peel red" just before "pull red". That involves a peel out of the velcro because a direct pull is often fighting the highest strength point of the velcro.

Ed

[lintern 1]

Thanks everyone for your input - it's made things clearer for me.

Just one other question I thought of:

4 - Are reserve canopy's designed to open at sub terminal ? If so, what would happen if you had a total mal and therefore had to open your reserve whilst at terminal ?

I realise that in a life or death situation you would have no choice but to use your reserve! I just wondered what would happen ?

I read on dropzone.com about someone who had to use their reserve whilst still in freefall i.e. at terminal.

Apparnetly they had a very hard opening which caused either fractures or broken bones.

The instructor said this was due to the very hard opening she had because the reserve opened whilst still in freefall at terminal.

[billvon 3,111]

>4 - Are reserve canopy's designed to open at sub terminal ?

Reserves are designed to open both subterminal and normal terminal, but NOT at head-down freefly speeds. At normal terminal you will likely experience a hard opening, but not a dangerous or damaging one. (Reserves open hard because they are designed to open within a certain time/distance in case of a low reserve deployment, like a cypres firing.) At head-down speeds you may have an opening that is hard enough to cause damage.

[obelixtim 150]

Looking at your posts....alarm bells are going off in my head right now....

I'd like to talk seriously to whoever it was who half trained you........

And whoever it was who told you a terminal reserve opening is going to smash you up.....

Would you consider some other course of action????....

You need to talk to an experienced instructor to straighten out a few things.......dispel a few myths and develop a bit of confidence in your equipment and procedures....

This isn't your fault....

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[Scrumpot 1]

Whereas most of your post seems to be already in process of being covered, I will refrain from joining in further on the debate of whether to chop 1st in ALL situations or not (as this seems to be evolving solely to). If you need to know my position on that, you can certainly search my posting history in here, where I think I've been pretty consistent with my position on that. ...Or (hint) you could always just say I agree with Tim

The one piece I haven't seen fully explained to you yet, although touched upon in brief reference by BillVon is:

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...Because with a total mal there may not be enough or any drag to pull the main and risers off you.

In a true total mal the main & risers are NOT going to be going anywhere anyway. Your container is still closed, so there is NOTHING to "drag off of you"!

Depending upon your rig type (riser protection covers in particular) is where the debate should stem as to whether cutting away NOTHING 1st, could pose any potential problems or considerations for you there or not. Otherwise, going straight for your reserve in an actual total mal (read: absolutely NOTHING deployed) should assure you of a clean reserve deployment.

Debate over having uniform procedures for time/habit considerations aside (all valid debates, and worth your consideration), I thought I might just clear that one component up for you.

Good questions.
Keep thinking!
Blue Skies,
-Grant

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[obelixtim 150]

Qualifying that statement for lintern.....not designed to open at freefly speeds.......doesn't mean they won't open at those speeds ......it just means it'll hurt on opening......and may damage the reserve....same as if you dumped your main at freefly speed.....thats why someone broke bones......

If you are out of altitude at the time.....not pulling is the other option!!!!!!!!...........what do you think about that???....

ghbnghhghhthghhhh

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[tbrown 26]

A total with nothing out, I'd go straight to the reserve handle. If anything at all was out, my pilot chute or whatever, I'd cutaway first, then pull.

For cutting away from a bad canopy overhead, I try to get both hands on my handles. I once chopped a streamer and then besides going unstable I couldn't visually find the handle. I forced myself to calm down and reached for where it had to be and felt my thumb go through the handle & punched. So I'd rather have both in hand and then cutaway.

My present rig has a RSL, so it's likely to beat me to the punch and I'll be pulling a ripcord that's already been pulled. But I'm pulling it. And my Cypres ? Oh yeah, forgot about that thing. I turn it on in the morning and off at the end of the day, the rest of the day I forget it's there. You forget it's there too (after you turn it on, of course).

Without a RSL, you can get in deadly trouble down low if you try to get stable. Even with a Cypres, you may be falling too slow for it to realize you're in trouble, you'd have to re-accelerate to 78mph before it fires. That's how the guy at the 2003 WFFC went in, he cutaway a spinner below a grand and tried to get stable. He was below 200 ft before he was falling fast enough to scare his Cypres. It fired, but too late. If you don't pull, it won't happen.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[JohnMitchell 16]

I definitely believe in "Eyes looking down, grab both handles at once, one in each hand." Ten cutaways and I've never felt the velcro yet. If you wonder whether you'll need two hands to pull your cutaway, see if an instructor can rig you up, hanging harness style, with your own rig. Make sure you disconnect the RSL. Then see how hard it is to chop. Without all that, you can try, on the ground, to see how hard it is to pull your cutaway handle off the velcro in various directions. Have an instructor watch to make sure you're not developing any bad habits. It's probably easier than you think. If not, you need to find out now why it's so hard for you to pull your cutaway handle with one hand.

[D22369 0]

Reserves are designed to open from any position. ***

The reserve parachute is not a magic parachute, they suffer the same malfunctions of a main. Any time you force a main or a reserve to come around your body (IE, unstable) you are increasing your odds of a mal.

Line twists - no prob.
Line over - Problem

Roy

They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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I have some concerns about my reserve drills that I would like to clear up....

3 - If you had a slow mal and spiralling: would you cut away, then arch and go back into freefall, then pull your reserve ?

Or would you put a hand on each handle, pull the cut-away pad followed by the reserve handle ? Is there not a risk of the reserve pilot chute going into the main by doing this though?

When I know how high I am, I cutaway, flip over, and then dump the reserve. Otherwise I pull the cutaway and then the reserve.

People using the hand-on-each method have accidentally fired the reserve when they had a hard cutaway (G-forces increase the cutaway force, as do line twists down to the risers without hard inserts).

Also note that while in a spinning malfunction, the handles do move.

[dubbayab 0]

I believe you should grasp the breakaway handle look at the reserve handle, pull the breakaway handle with both hands and watch the silver handle new position on you body ( cutaways can shift you position in the harness) also I think it is very important to first visualy check that both side have released from your break away before you try to get stable for the reserve deployment. If you are super low, don't wait for stability, pull silver

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[sundevil777 102]

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But when I tried it I quickly started to loose stability and nearly went over on my side

Spread your legs apart more, you will have greater 'roll' stability.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[sundevil777 102]

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Deploying the reserve could cause the main to depoly - at which point it is better if it is already cut away.

No, you are quite wrong to be so confident in that statement.

The chance for a 2 out situation or entanglement must be balanced against the chance for the departing main to snag the reserve. It is not a settled issue on which is best.

Please read;
http://www.performancedesigns.com/docs/dualsq.pdf

and this is a decent thread dealing thoughtfully with the subject (of course my posts are the most thoughtfull :

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=598018;search_string=army;#598018

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am