yjumpinoz 0 #1 February 26, 2007 Not sure if this is the best place to post, but I caught a glimpse of someone not quite making it into a demo for a nascar race. Didn't look like they would have gotten hurt too bad. Anyone know the details? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wrightskyguy 1 #2 February 26, 2007 Are you saying they missed the track? Must not have been much of demo jumper, providing he had a good canopy. John Wright World's most beloved skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SBS 0 #3 February 26, 2007 Don't be too quick to judge...it can happen to the best..._____________ I'm not conceited...I'm just realistic about my awesomeness... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yjumpinoz 0 #4 February 26, 2007 Looked like a second choice landing. It was across the fence for the track. Semi-low turn and slide. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NickDG 23 #5 February 26, 2007 I've always thought "targets" set out for demos is a bad idea. If you land smoothly 30-feet way, it gives cause to say, "you missed." The point should be landing safely and making it look easy. Even mild swoop landings, when appropriate, are better than bad accuracy approaches. Accuracy approaches, when done incorrectly (like many seem to be) shows a lot of toggle flailing and when doing that it looks, well, it looks like flailing . . . NickD BASE 194 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wrightskyguy 1 #6 February 27, 2007 QuoteDon't be too quick to judge...it can happen to the best... *** Don't mean to be quick to judge,but a jump into a NASCAR event is about as easy as demos get. Unless there was some sort of unforseen problem or medical issue, there's no reason for a PRO rated jumper to miss the target area at a race track. Hope everyone is ok. John Wright World's most beloved skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites matthewcline 0 #7 February 27, 2007 NASCAR Jumps are not as easy as they used to be. We now have to contend with the cable camera that zips around the front straight away area, the crane cameras, the crew camera and the 6 foot antenna they carry, the portable stage with 1000 + lucky pre-race concert fans, walk ways, canons, color guards, drivers and the 20+ person entourage, etc. But it is all in a days work and still one of the "funner" demo's one can do. MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wrightskyguy 1 #8 February 27, 2007 QuoteNASCAR Jumps are not as easy as they used to be. We now have to contend with the cable camera that zips around the front straight away area, the crane cameras, the crew camera and the 6 foot antenna they carry, the portable stage with 1000 + lucky pre-race concert fans, walk ways, canons, color guards, drivers and the 20+ person entourage, etc. *** Yes, all of these things are at Race track jumps, but the jumpers should all be aware of these things already. I think the toughest part of one of these demos is trying to work your way into the the picture while the celebrity sings the Star Spangled Banner. John Wright World's most beloved skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites divnswoop 0 #9 February 27, 2007 No John....I think the toughest part is having some DOD Demo guy with a couple hundred jumps jumping into these places. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites matthewcline 0 #10 February 27, 2007 Why is that the toughest part? I actually know of NO DOD Demo guy or gal (Army at least) who has done a NASCAR Demo, that has less than 500 jumps in the last 8 years. The Knights even told me they went to PRO Ratings a while back to ease the -2/-1 approval process. MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkymonkeyONE 4 #11 February 27, 2007 I totally agree with Matt. None of the DOD teams I have ever jumped on would let a guy who did not have a PRO rating jump into demos which require one. Under-qualified people pull dirt on those shows. Also, there is quite a difference between "some DOD guy with a few hundred jumps" who ONLY does demos and a person with a Stilletto and over 1000 jumps who has never bothered to qualify for a PRO ticket under a proper demo main. Apples and oranges. If you don't train for demos, then you are not qualified to do demos, regardless of jump numbers. Chuck PRO rated since there was such a thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airdvr 210 #12 February 27, 2007 Just an observation...I was watching the ceremonies and I remember thinking "looks pretty windy for a demo."Please don't dent the planet. Destinations by Roxanne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BillyVance 35 #13 February 27, 2007 QuoteJust an observation...I was watching the ceremonies and I remember thinking "looks pretty windy for a demo." If the winds were within the allowable limit, which I think is 15 mph steady, then they would have been within their rights to do the jump, but yes they all have to be pro-rated for these jump sites. However, take into account the wingloading some of the demo jumpers use. If they are using a big lightly loaded canopy for accuracy, they are going to have more problems on a windy day than someone with a moderately sized but appropriate canopy."Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NickDG 23 #14 February 27, 2007 I've never had much faith in the Pro Rating. Demo jumping is a test of skill AND judgment. So you can stand up in the peas of your home DZ, big whoop. The real test is having the guts to call a demo off. Then it's being able to overcome your knocking knees as you pass below your last "out." On a tight demo, it's the closest we skydivers come to shooting traps on an aircraft carrier, except we do it without an ejection seat, a meatball, or a prayer of going around . . . NickD BASE 194 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites matthewcline 0 #15 February 28, 2007 What race are we talking about any way? Might shed some light to know the venue. MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BillyVance 35 #16 February 28, 2007 QuoteThe real test is having the guts to call a demo off. Then it's being able to overcome your knocking knees as you pass below your last "out." On a tight demo, it's the closest we skydivers come to shooting traps on an aircraft carrier, except we do it without an ejection seat, a meatball, or a prayer of going around . . . NickD BASE 194 yep, yep and yep, been there done that. Calling off a demo, especially a big one, always sucks monkey balls, but it has to be done when the conditions aren't safe."Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites D22369 0 #17 February 28, 2007 never bothered to qualify for a PRO ticket under a proper demo main.*** If the guy gained his pro rating with his stilletto - 10 predeclared jumps, not the bullshit 10 with a huge canopy - then 3 with the smaller to gain the pro rating, would you still consider the stilletto a not so proper demo canopy? to me, smaller/eliptical doesnt always mean less safe.... *shrug* - donning nomex suit at this time.... RoyThey say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,107 #18 February 28, 2007 >would you still consider the stilletto a not so proper demo canopy? It would depend on the demo. A friend of mine died this summer trying to land a too-small main at a demo. On the other hand, for some of the demos I've done (golf course, beach, ten acre field) a smaller canopy may be OK. >to me, smaller/eliptical doesnt always mean less safe.... It nearly always means "less safe." It's faster, needs more room to turn, needs more runway to stop, and can't be shut down as easily. Sometimes, though, it's still safe enough. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites D22369 0 #19 February 28, 2007 common sense is probably the deciding factor. demo's seem to bring out the "must land there-itis" and the tendency to push a bad situation. I will grant the more room to stop. but more room to turn? I disagree with this, I found my stilletto to brake turn quickly but with much less altitude loss. the more runway to stop had better be calculated in by the pilot before hand. Plus..... ya gotta know when to say fuck no... this is the wrong tool for the job... 15mph winds.... I want a smaller canopy if we are going ahead with the demo. the tighter the landing area, the larger I want on a calm day. RoyThey say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites matthewcline 0 #20 February 28, 2007 The theory sounds well and good here on the net, but in practice a Demo is not the place to be putting a fast canopy. Unless THAT is the Demo. A type specific canopy (Star Trak, Sharp Chuter, PD 7 cell Demo, etc.) that is practiced on more than the 10 to get a PRO rating and 5 to stay current (some forget that a lot) will be better than any other theory. Our Team practices in ground winds up to 20mph, but only do DEMO's up to 15mph. We build in a cussion so if the winds change for the worse we are PRACTICED with it. We also place our target next to buildings and trees, on concrete, in a 5m circle and tighten up the landing area to smaller than the minimum so if that happens while under canopy (I was on final when the band director for the Vols decided to take the field once) we can still land safely. But you cant do that with a Zippy parachute, you know, hit the brakes and sink a 98 from 30 feet up and your heading to the ER. IMO the only time a Zippy canopy should be on a Demo is if it is a hi-perf landing Demo. I do see a place for that kind of Demo, but not crowded NASCAR Tracks or Stadiums full of Bands, players and cables/wires. I have even re-qauled on a Cross braced canopy, non-cross braced zippy, a Tandem with and with out a licensed jumper and the Standard Demo canopies. I know I can put my mains there but not all who demos train like the DOD, Mil Teams. I have also called off many a Demo for safety. My question to some of the "young guns" here has been "Why a smaller canopy in 15mph winds (the limit)? The answer showed a bigger problem to me. "So I can get in". They didn't know how to spot and their fix was a canopy less affected by the lacking skill. If a Demonstrator KNOWS how to spot, and does stay in the limits there is no "need" for a zippy canopy, unless again that is the demo. MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites yjumpinoz 0 #21 February 28, 2007 I did not catch where the jump was, but I think the race was in California. The reason for the post was to find out details. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkymonkeyONE 4 #22 February 28, 2007 Like Matt, I have also re-qualified on my "other" canopies. Your PRO card only allows you to perform demonstrations on the canopy size/type you are qualified for. Because of that, and the fact that I also like "swoop type demos", I qualified all the way down to my old Cobalt 75 and up to the Sigma 370 tandem main. I think Nick might not have confidence in the PRO ticket because he has seen people who get their card simply for vanity or to perform some random demo. Matt and I are talking about something entirely different . "Real" demos are performed by teams which practice more than their annual PRO recertification. "Real" demo teams have train-ups where they work on line-ups, dial in their accuracy, prep their flags (or streamers) and smoke, and make lots of videoed/scored landings. Real teams send reps to ICAS to book shows. There is a place for swoop demos for sure. Places where you ARE able to setup a runway long enough that you do not direct energy over the crowd line (prohibited by the FAA). If you cannot initiate and perform your swoop over this clear area, then you are not supposed to be jumping that kind of canopy. I have seen plenty of video of guys swooping in right over the heads of the audience in order to land in a too-small cordoned-off area. That's simply dangerous. Again, you cannot direct energy (swoop, turn with a lowered rucksack or a huge flag) over the crowd. I have done a fair number of demos with very-small canopies, but the great majority of my demos have been "classic-style" under a StarTrac or PD 7-cell. Smaller demos by local DZ jumpers into local events are the ones that need to be tightened up. I have been on several such "throw together" demos over the years with varying degrees of professionalism. In the end, it's all about making the sponsor happy. If they are cool with guys swooping in in their shorts and Tevas to open up a new bar on the beach, then great. Z-hills has it's own actual demo team with proper mains and matching uniforms. The DZ I moved from had FOUR such teams. Either way you do it, you REALLY must have the proper landing area cordoned off for whichever type of show you are putting on and you must'nt allow under-qualified and out-of-practice jumpers on the load. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NickDG 23 #23 February 28, 2007 >>I think Nick might not have confidence in the PRO ticket because he has seen people who get their card simply for vanity or to perform some random demo. Matt and I are talking about something entirely different.<< I don't like the Pro Rating because prior to its inception, at least in California where I came up, you had to prove yourself to some flesh and blood established demo jumper before being "invited" on Demo. And even though any "C" license jumper could "legally" file for a waiver the local FAA would almost always contact a known to them local demo jumper and ask, "who's this guy?" Now anybody with a "card" can walk into a FAA office and proclaim themselves qualified to some clerk who's never even seen a parachute. And it's in the FAA SOP that a Pro Ratings makes it so. If you look at the amount of serious incidents, especially spectators being taken out, on demos both before and after the Pro Rating it's plain to see the peer review process needs to be revived. It used to be, you got the nod . . . Now it's, I got the card . . . NickD BASE 194 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airtwardo 7 #24 February 28, 2007 That about sizes up the difference between a 'demo participant' and a true professional exhibition jumper. Landing on time, on target and standing up are in theory simple enough requirements. It's when all the other factors come into play, pulling off a successful demo becomes a challenge. I always say that if you can't perform the three basic requirements 100% of the time 100 times in a row, you need to change the equipment or the program in such a way as it becomes possible. That being said, Murphy does lurk, and landing out safely is a much better choice that pushing a bad situation to an end where injury is the outcome. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airtwardo 7 #25 February 28, 2007 It used to be, you got the nod . . . Now it's, I got the card . . . Quote Double edge sword though Nick. I was trying to get demos in California back in those 'covered wagon' days if you'll recall, and being a newer jumper to the area couldn't get the nod until long after I was established there. Even though I had 2 or 3 times the number of large venue, high pressure demos as some of the guys on constant ' call '. I got more recognition after that first PRO roster came out in regard to being a 'Professional' that I did for doing tight demos that no one else would even consider. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 1 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
matthewcline 0 #7 February 27, 2007 NASCAR Jumps are not as easy as they used to be. We now have to contend with the cable camera that zips around the front straight away area, the crane cameras, the crew camera and the 6 foot antenna they carry, the portable stage with 1000 + lucky pre-race concert fans, walk ways, canons, color guards, drivers and the 20+ person entourage, etc. But it is all in a days work and still one of the "funner" demo's one can do. MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wrightskyguy 1 #8 February 27, 2007 QuoteNASCAR Jumps are not as easy as they used to be. We now have to contend with the cable camera that zips around the front straight away area, the crane cameras, the crew camera and the 6 foot antenna they carry, the portable stage with 1000 + lucky pre-race concert fans, walk ways, canons, color guards, drivers and the 20+ person entourage, etc. *** Yes, all of these things are at Race track jumps, but the jumpers should all be aware of these things already. I think the toughest part of one of these demos is trying to work your way into the the picture while the celebrity sings the Star Spangled Banner. John Wright World's most beloved skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites divnswoop 0 #9 February 27, 2007 No John....I think the toughest part is having some DOD Demo guy with a couple hundred jumps jumping into these places. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites matthewcline 0 #10 February 27, 2007 Why is that the toughest part? I actually know of NO DOD Demo guy or gal (Army at least) who has done a NASCAR Demo, that has less than 500 jumps in the last 8 years. The Knights even told me they went to PRO Ratings a while back to ease the -2/-1 approval process. MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkymonkeyONE 4 #11 February 27, 2007 I totally agree with Matt. None of the DOD teams I have ever jumped on would let a guy who did not have a PRO rating jump into demos which require one. Under-qualified people pull dirt on those shows. Also, there is quite a difference between "some DOD guy with a few hundred jumps" who ONLY does demos and a person with a Stilletto and over 1000 jumps who has never bothered to qualify for a PRO ticket under a proper demo main. Apples and oranges. If you don't train for demos, then you are not qualified to do demos, regardless of jump numbers. Chuck PRO rated since there was such a thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airdvr 210 #12 February 27, 2007 Just an observation...I was watching the ceremonies and I remember thinking "looks pretty windy for a demo."Please don't dent the planet. Destinations by Roxanne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BillyVance 35 #13 February 27, 2007 QuoteJust an observation...I was watching the ceremonies and I remember thinking "looks pretty windy for a demo." If the winds were within the allowable limit, which I think is 15 mph steady, then they would have been within their rights to do the jump, but yes they all have to be pro-rated for these jump sites. However, take into account the wingloading some of the demo jumpers use. If they are using a big lightly loaded canopy for accuracy, they are going to have more problems on a windy day than someone with a moderately sized but appropriate canopy."Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NickDG 23 #14 February 27, 2007 I've never had much faith in the Pro Rating. Demo jumping is a test of skill AND judgment. So you can stand up in the peas of your home DZ, big whoop. The real test is having the guts to call a demo off. Then it's being able to overcome your knocking knees as you pass below your last "out." On a tight demo, it's the closest we skydivers come to shooting traps on an aircraft carrier, except we do it without an ejection seat, a meatball, or a prayer of going around . . . NickD BASE 194 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites matthewcline 0 #15 February 28, 2007 What race are we talking about any way? Might shed some light to know the venue. MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BillyVance 35 #16 February 28, 2007 QuoteThe real test is having the guts to call a demo off. Then it's being able to overcome your knocking knees as you pass below your last "out." On a tight demo, it's the closest we skydivers come to shooting traps on an aircraft carrier, except we do it without an ejection seat, a meatball, or a prayer of going around . . . NickD BASE 194 yep, yep and yep, been there done that. Calling off a demo, especially a big one, always sucks monkey balls, but it has to be done when the conditions aren't safe."Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites D22369 0 #17 February 28, 2007 never bothered to qualify for a PRO ticket under a proper demo main.*** If the guy gained his pro rating with his stilletto - 10 predeclared jumps, not the bullshit 10 with a huge canopy - then 3 with the smaller to gain the pro rating, would you still consider the stilletto a not so proper demo canopy? to me, smaller/eliptical doesnt always mean less safe.... *shrug* - donning nomex suit at this time.... RoyThey say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,107 #18 February 28, 2007 >would you still consider the stilletto a not so proper demo canopy? It would depend on the demo. A friend of mine died this summer trying to land a too-small main at a demo. On the other hand, for some of the demos I've done (golf course, beach, ten acre field) a smaller canopy may be OK. >to me, smaller/eliptical doesnt always mean less safe.... It nearly always means "less safe." It's faster, needs more room to turn, needs more runway to stop, and can't be shut down as easily. Sometimes, though, it's still safe enough. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites D22369 0 #19 February 28, 2007 common sense is probably the deciding factor. demo's seem to bring out the "must land there-itis" and the tendency to push a bad situation. I will grant the more room to stop. but more room to turn? I disagree with this, I found my stilletto to brake turn quickly but with much less altitude loss. the more runway to stop had better be calculated in by the pilot before hand. Plus..... ya gotta know when to say fuck no... this is the wrong tool for the job... 15mph winds.... I want a smaller canopy if we are going ahead with the demo. the tighter the landing area, the larger I want on a calm day. RoyThey say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites matthewcline 0 #20 February 28, 2007 The theory sounds well and good here on the net, but in practice a Demo is not the place to be putting a fast canopy. Unless THAT is the Demo. A type specific canopy (Star Trak, Sharp Chuter, PD 7 cell Demo, etc.) that is practiced on more than the 10 to get a PRO rating and 5 to stay current (some forget that a lot) will be better than any other theory. Our Team practices in ground winds up to 20mph, but only do DEMO's up to 15mph. We build in a cussion so if the winds change for the worse we are PRACTICED with it. We also place our target next to buildings and trees, on concrete, in a 5m circle and tighten up the landing area to smaller than the minimum so if that happens while under canopy (I was on final when the band director for the Vols decided to take the field once) we can still land safely. But you cant do that with a Zippy parachute, you know, hit the brakes and sink a 98 from 30 feet up and your heading to the ER. IMO the only time a Zippy canopy should be on a Demo is if it is a hi-perf landing Demo. I do see a place for that kind of Demo, but not crowded NASCAR Tracks or Stadiums full of Bands, players and cables/wires. I have even re-qauled on a Cross braced canopy, non-cross braced zippy, a Tandem with and with out a licensed jumper and the Standard Demo canopies. I know I can put my mains there but not all who demos train like the DOD, Mil Teams. I have also called off many a Demo for safety. My question to some of the "young guns" here has been "Why a smaller canopy in 15mph winds (the limit)? The answer showed a bigger problem to me. "So I can get in". They didn't know how to spot and their fix was a canopy less affected by the lacking skill. If a Demonstrator KNOWS how to spot, and does stay in the limits there is no "need" for a zippy canopy, unless again that is the demo. MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites yjumpinoz 0 #21 February 28, 2007 I did not catch where the jump was, but I think the race was in California. The reason for the post was to find out details. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkymonkeyONE 4 #22 February 28, 2007 Like Matt, I have also re-qualified on my "other" canopies. Your PRO card only allows you to perform demonstrations on the canopy size/type you are qualified for. Because of that, and the fact that I also like "swoop type demos", I qualified all the way down to my old Cobalt 75 and up to the Sigma 370 tandem main. I think Nick might not have confidence in the PRO ticket because he has seen people who get their card simply for vanity or to perform some random demo. Matt and I are talking about something entirely different . "Real" demos are performed by teams which practice more than their annual PRO recertification. "Real" demo teams have train-ups where they work on line-ups, dial in their accuracy, prep their flags (or streamers) and smoke, and make lots of videoed/scored landings. Real teams send reps to ICAS to book shows. There is a place for swoop demos for sure. Places where you ARE able to setup a runway long enough that you do not direct energy over the crowd line (prohibited by the FAA). If you cannot initiate and perform your swoop over this clear area, then you are not supposed to be jumping that kind of canopy. I have seen plenty of video of guys swooping in right over the heads of the audience in order to land in a too-small cordoned-off area. That's simply dangerous. Again, you cannot direct energy (swoop, turn with a lowered rucksack or a huge flag) over the crowd. I have done a fair number of demos with very-small canopies, but the great majority of my demos have been "classic-style" under a StarTrac or PD 7-cell. Smaller demos by local DZ jumpers into local events are the ones that need to be tightened up. I have been on several such "throw together" demos over the years with varying degrees of professionalism. In the end, it's all about making the sponsor happy. If they are cool with guys swooping in in their shorts and Tevas to open up a new bar on the beach, then great. Z-hills has it's own actual demo team with proper mains and matching uniforms. The DZ I moved from had FOUR such teams. Either way you do it, you REALLY must have the proper landing area cordoned off for whichever type of show you are putting on and you must'nt allow under-qualified and out-of-practice jumpers on the load. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NickDG 23 #23 February 28, 2007 >>I think Nick might not have confidence in the PRO ticket because he has seen people who get their card simply for vanity or to perform some random demo. Matt and I are talking about something entirely different.<< I don't like the Pro Rating because prior to its inception, at least in California where I came up, you had to prove yourself to some flesh and blood established demo jumper before being "invited" on Demo. And even though any "C" license jumper could "legally" file for a waiver the local FAA would almost always contact a known to them local demo jumper and ask, "who's this guy?" Now anybody with a "card" can walk into a FAA office and proclaim themselves qualified to some clerk who's never even seen a parachute. And it's in the FAA SOP that a Pro Ratings makes it so. If you look at the amount of serious incidents, especially spectators being taken out, on demos both before and after the Pro Rating it's plain to see the peer review process needs to be revived. It used to be, you got the nod . . . Now it's, I got the card . . . NickD BASE 194 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airtwardo 7 #24 February 28, 2007 That about sizes up the difference between a 'demo participant' and a true professional exhibition jumper. Landing on time, on target and standing up are in theory simple enough requirements. It's when all the other factors come into play, pulling off a successful demo becomes a challenge. I always say that if you can't perform the three basic requirements 100% of the time 100 times in a row, you need to change the equipment or the program in such a way as it becomes possible. That being said, Murphy does lurk, and landing out safely is a much better choice that pushing a bad situation to an end where injury is the outcome. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airtwardo 7 #25 February 28, 2007 It used to be, you got the nod . . . Now it's, I got the card . . . Quote Double edge sword though Nick. I was trying to get demos in California back in those 'covered wagon' days if you'll recall, and being a newer jumper to the area couldn't get the nod until long after I was established there. Even though I had 2 or 3 times the number of large venue, high pressure demos as some of the guys on constant ' call '. I got more recognition after that first PRO roster came out in regard to being a 'Professional' that I did for doing tight demos that no one else would even consider. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 1 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
divnswoop 0 #9 February 27, 2007 No John....I think the toughest part is having some DOD Demo guy with a couple hundred jumps jumping into these places. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #10 February 27, 2007 Why is that the toughest part? I actually know of NO DOD Demo guy or gal (Army at least) who has done a NASCAR Demo, that has less than 500 jumps in the last 8 years. The Knights even told me they went to PRO Ratings a while back to ease the -2/-1 approval process. MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 4 #11 February 27, 2007 I totally agree with Matt. None of the DOD teams I have ever jumped on would let a guy who did not have a PRO rating jump into demos which require one. Under-qualified people pull dirt on those shows. Also, there is quite a difference between "some DOD guy with a few hundred jumps" who ONLY does demos and a person with a Stilletto and over 1000 jumps who has never bothered to qualify for a PRO ticket under a proper demo main. Apples and oranges. If you don't train for demos, then you are not qualified to do demos, regardless of jump numbers. Chuck PRO rated since there was such a thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airdvr 210 #12 February 27, 2007 Just an observation...I was watching the ceremonies and I remember thinking "looks pretty windy for a demo."Please don't dent the planet. Destinations by Roxanne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BillyVance 35 #13 February 27, 2007 QuoteJust an observation...I was watching the ceremonies and I remember thinking "looks pretty windy for a demo." If the winds were within the allowable limit, which I think is 15 mph steady, then they would have been within their rights to do the jump, but yes they all have to be pro-rated for these jump sites. However, take into account the wingloading some of the demo jumpers use. If they are using a big lightly loaded canopy for accuracy, they are going to have more problems on a windy day than someone with a moderately sized but appropriate canopy."Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NickDG 23 #14 February 27, 2007 I've never had much faith in the Pro Rating. Demo jumping is a test of skill AND judgment. So you can stand up in the peas of your home DZ, big whoop. The real test is having the guts to call a demo off. Then it's being able to overcome your knocking knees as you pass below your last "out." On a tight demo, it's the closest we skydivers come to shooting traps on an aircraft carrier, except we do it without an ejection seat, a meatball, or a prayer of going around . . . NickD BASE 194 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #15 February 28, 2007 What race are we talking about any way? Might shed some light to know the venue. MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BillyVance 35 #16 February 28, 2007 QuoteThe real test is having the guts to call a demo off. Then it's being able to overcome your knocking knees as you pass below your last "out." On a tight demo, it's the closest we skydivers come to shooting traps on an aircraft carrier, except we do it without an ejection seat, a meatball, or a prayer of going around . . . NickD BASE 194 yep, yep and yep, been there done that. Calling off a demo, especially a big one, always sucks monkey balls, but it has to be done when the conditions aren't safe."Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
D22369 0 #17 February 28, 2007 never bothered to qualify for a PRO ticket under a proper demo main.*** If the guy gained his pro rating with his stilletto - 10 predeclared jumps, not the bullshit 10 with a huge canopy - then 3 with the smaller to gain the pro rating, would you still consider the stilletto a not so proper demo canopy? to me, smaller/eliptical doesnt always mean less safe.... *shrug* - donning nomex suit at this time.... RoyThey say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,107 #18 February 28, 2007 >would you still consider the stilletto a not so proper demo canopy? It would depend on the demo. A friend of mine died this summer trying to land a too-small main at a demo. On the other hand, for some of the demos I've done (golf course, beach, ten acre field) a smaller canopy may be OK. >to me, smaller/eliptical doesnt always mean less safe.... It nearly always means "less safe." It's faster, needs more room to turn, needs more runway to stop, and can't be shut down as easily. Sometimes, though, it's still safe enough. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
D22369 0 #19 February 28, 2007 common sense is probably the deciding factor. demo's seem to bring out the "must land there-itis" and the tendency to push a bad situation. I will grant the more room to stop. but more room to turn? I disagree with this, I found my stilletto to brake turn quickly but with much less altitude loss. the more runway to stop had better be calculated in by the pilot before hand. Plus..... ya gotta know when to say fuck no... this is the wrong tool for the job... 15mph winds.... I want a smaller canopy if we are going ahead with the demo. the tighter the landing area, the larger I want on a calm day. RoyThey say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #20 February 28, 2007 The theory sounds well and good here on the net, but in practice a Demo is not the place to be putting a fast canopy. Unless THAT is the Demo. A type specific canopy (Star Trak, Sharp Chuter, PD 7 cell Demo, etc.) that is practiced on more than the 10 to get a PRO rating and 5 to stay current (some forget that a lot) will be better than any other theory. Our Team practices in ground winds up to 20mph, but only do DEMO's up to 15mph. We build in a cussion so if the winds change for the worse we are PRACTICED with it. We also place our target next to buildings and trees, on concrete, in a 5m circle and tighten up the landing area to smaller than the minimum so if that happens while under canopy (I was on final when the band director for the Vols decided to take the field once) we can still land safely. But you cant do that with a Zippy parachute, you know, hit the brakes and sink a 98 from 30 feet up and your heading to the ER. IMO the only time a Zippy canopy should be on a Demo is if it is a hi-perf landing Demo. I do see a place for that kind of Demo, but not crowded NASCAR Tracks or Stadiums full of Bands, players and cables/wires. I have even re-qauled on a Cross braced canopy, non-cross braced zippy, a Tandem with and with out a licensed jumper and the Standard Demo canopies. I know I can put my mains there but not all who demos train like the DOD, Mil Teams. I have also called off many a Demo for safety. My question to some of the "young guns" here has been "Why a smaller canopy in 15mph winds (the limit)? The answer showed a bigger problem to me. "So I can get in". They didn't know how to spot and their fix was a canopy less affected by the lacking skill. If a Demonstrator KNOWS how to spot, and does stay in the limits there is no "need" for a zippy canopy, unless again that is the demo. MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yjumpinoz 0 #21 February 28, 2007 I did not catch where the jump was, but I think the race was in California. The reason for the post was to find out details. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 4 #22 February 28, 2007 Like Matt, I have also re-qualified on my "other" canopies. Your PRO card only allows you to perform demonstrations on the canopy size/type you are qualified for. Because of that, and the fact that I also like "swoop type demos", I qualified all the way down to my old Cobalt 75 and up to the Sigma 370 tandem main. I think Nick might not have confidence in the PRO ticket because he has seen people who get their card simply for vanity or to perform some random demo. Matt and I are talking about something entirely different . "Real" demos are performed by teams which practice more than their annual PRO recertification. "Real" demo teams have train-ups where they work on line-ups, dial in their accuracy, prep their flags (or streamers) and smoke, and make lots of videoed/scored landings. Real teams send reps to ICAS to book shows. There is a place for swoop demos for sure. Places where you ARE able to setup a runway long enough that you do not direct energy over the crowd line (prohibited by the FAA). If you cannot initiate and perform your swoop over this clear area, then you are not supposed to be jumping that kind of canopy. I have seen plenty of video of guys swooping in right over the heads of the audience in order to land in a too-small cordoned-off area. That's simply dangerous. Again, you cannot direct energy (swoop, turn with a lowered rucksack or a huge flag) over the crowd. I have done a fair number of demos with very-small canopies, but the great majority of my demos have been "classic-style" under a StarTrac or PD 7-cell. Smaller demos by local DZ jumpers into local events are the ones that need to be tightened up. I have been on several such "throw together" demos over the years with varying degrees of professionalism. In the end, it's all about making the sponsor happy. If they are cool with guys swooping in in their shorts and Tevas to open up a new bar on the beach, then great. Z-hills has it's own actual demo team with proper mains and matching uniforms. The DZ I moved from had FOUR such teams. Either way you do it, you REALLY must have the proper landing area cordoned off for whichever type of show you are putting on and you must'nt allow under-qualified and out-of-practice jumpers on the load. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NickDG 23 #23 February 28, 2007 >>I think Nick might not have confidence in the PRO ticket because he has seen people who get their card simply for vanity or to perform some random demo. Matt and I are talking about something entirely different.<< I don't like the Pro Rating because prior to its inception, at least in California where I came up, you had to prove yourself to some flesh and blood established demo jumper before being "invited" on Demo. And even though any "C" license jumper could "legally" file for a waiver the local FAA would almost always contact a known to them local demo jumper and ask, "who's this guy?" Now anybody with a "card" can walk into a FAA office and proclaim themselves qualified to some clerk who's never even seen a parachute. And it's in the FAA SOP that a Pro Ratings makes it so. If you look at the amount of serious incidents, especially spectators being taken out, on demos both before and after the Pro Rating it's plain to see the peer review process needs to be revived. It used to be, you got the nod . . . Now it's, I got the card . . . NickD BASE 194 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #24 February 28, 2007 That about sizes up the difference between a 'demo participant' and a true professional exhibition jumper. Landing on time, on target and standing up are in theory simple enough requirements. It's when all the other factors come into play, pulling off a successful demo becomes a challenge. I always say that if you can't perform the three basic requirements 100% of the time 100 times in a row, you need to change the equipment or the program in such a way as it becomes possible. That being said, Murphy does lurk, and landing out safely is a much better choice that pushing a bad situation to an end where injury is the outcome. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #25 February 28, 2007 It used to be, you got the nod . . . Now it's, I got the card . . . Quote Double edge sword though Nick. I was trying to get demos in California back in those 'covered wagon' days if you'll recall, and being a newer jumper to the area couldn't get the nod until long after I was established there. Even though I had 2 or 3 times the number of large venue, high pressure demos as some of the guys on constant ' call '. I got more recognition after that first PRO roster came out in regard to being a 'Professional' that I did for doing tight demos that no one else would even consider. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 1 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
