mnealtx 0 #101 May 29, 2007 QuoteBUT, they're idiots out there that will swoop regardless if they see a canopy or not. Agreed - and I honestly don't recall anyone advocating that ALL swoopers are like that...Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,146 #102 May 29, 2007 Quote"I expect I have you beat on that." Yup you do... So I can see where you have a vested interest, but when people hide behind the excuse of "Bob Holler never saw it coming" or "Danny was a swooper so now all swoopers need to be banned to a diiferent area" or even people like JLMIRACLE saying "Again, you want a quick fix - ban swooping and stupidly small canopies." does nothing to solve the problem. If you cannot seperate emotion then you are not thinking rationally. Kindly explain in simple language that even I can understand how my suggestion that USPA asks DZOs to come up with a plan that is customized for their DZ to prevent collisions between those doing standard landing patterns and those doing high performance landings is (a) "not thinking rationally", and (b) hiding behind Bob's death. I think an objective observer would conclude that YOU are being emotional and irrational. S far as contributions to safety are concerned, I suggest you read Safety Check on p13 of the June Parachutist.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #103 May 29, 2007 QuoteAgreed - and I honestly don't recall anyone advocating that ALL swoopers are like that... I would hope not since anyone who generates any sort of speed for their landing is swooping. Even people who fly straight approaches, can swoop their canopies across the ground before they touch down if they've got a moderate wingloading.. We need to clean ourselves up. The sport as a whole. We as jumpers (this includes DZOs) need to police ourselves with the help of some common sense like seperating slow canopies from fast ones when possible (leaving the details up to each DZO). The message needs to get out to the wannabees more that in order to become a better canopy pilot they need to dedicate time to the skill. But we also need to speak up to the minority of very experienced full time jumpers who will swoop in traffic. But what is traffic? That depends ... obviously what happened to Danny and Bob was traffic. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Spizzzarko 0 #104 May 30, 2007 "Kindly explain in simple language that even I can understand how my suggestion that USPA asks DZOs to come up with a plan that is customized for their DZ to prevent collisions between those doing standard landing patterns and those doing high performance landings is (a) "not thinking rationally", and (b) hiding behind Bob's death." My comments were more of a generalization about these types of threads not an attack on what you have asked USPA to do. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yardhippie 0 #105 May 30, 2007 Quote On the ground i was like fuck, i couldn't swoop because of that canopy. Then i thought to myself what a dick way of thinking. BUT, they're idiots out there that will swoop regardless if they see a canopy or not. No, youre not a dick for expecting the same respect you gave that canopy. It's just natural, what puts you above those that make a bad name for us, is the fact that you made that evaluation. You and I are not so different, we want progression, safety, and fun. Its only just frustration, its a fact of life. You saw, you evaluated, you decided, the two of you lived. This is what I want. Evaluate, decide, live.Goddam dirty hippies piss me off! ~GFD "What do I get for closing your rig?" ~ me "Anything you want." ~ female skydiver Mohoso Rodriguez #865 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skinnyshrek 0 #106 May 30, 2007 cheers hippie..http://www.skydivethefarm.com do you realize that when you critisize people you dont know over the internet, you become part of a growing society of twats? ARE YOU ONE OF THEM? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
2shay 0 #107 May 30, 2007 My hat is off to brian awesome, totally awesome.don't try your bullshit with me!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yardhippie 0 #108 May 30, 2007 Quote cheers hippie.. Be rude not to!Goddam dirty hippies piss me off! ~GFD "What do I get for closing your rig?" ~ me "Anything you want." ~ female skydiver Mohoso Rodriguez #865 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,146 #109 May 30, 2007 Quote"Kindly explain in simple language that even I can understand how my suggestion that USPA asks DZOs to come up with a plan that is customized for their DZ to prevent collisions between those doing standard landing patterns and those doing high performance landings is (a) "not thinking rationally", and (b) hiding behind Bob's death." My comments were more of a generalization about these types of threads not an attack on what you have asked USPA to do. Curious! You explicitly mentioned my name.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jgaley69 0 #110 May 31, 2007 Ok, let's check the fatalities from collision!!! Over the last 4 years and 212 deaths, there is only 4 that where done by people swooping or trying to swoop!!! There is some of them are collision during deployment, let me guess the next thing will be a BSR on deployment!!! Come on guy's, it shouldn't be BSR for that!! If they do lets try to get one for jumpers with heart conditions, or any medical condition that requires medicine!!jgaley69 www.jumpelvis.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,146 #111 May 31, 2007 QuoteOk, let's check the fatalities from collision!!! Over the last 4 years and 212 deaths, there is only 4 that where done by people swooping or trying to swoop!!! There is some of them are collision during deployment, let me guess the next thing will be a BSR on deployment!!! Come on guy's, it shouldn't be BSR for that!! If they do lets try to get one for jumpers with heart conditions, or any medical condition that requires medicine!! Oh, just 4 completely avoidable funerals and 4 bereaved families. I guess that doesn't matter then.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waltappel 1 #112 May 31, 2007 QuoteOh, just 4 completely avoidable funerals and 4 bereaved families. I guess that doesn't matter then. On a related note, was the guy who collided with you under canopy attempting a swoop? Back to the topic at hand, I know I'm stating the obvious, but these deaths affect a lot more people than just the immediate family. BSR worthy for sure. Walt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,146 #113 May 31, 2007 QuoteQuoteOh, just 4 completely avoidable funerals and 4 bereaved families. I guess that doesn't matter then. On a related note, was the guy who collided with you under canopy attempting a swoop? Walt I didn't see him, he came from above and behind. I am told he was coming out of a spiral to get down quickly. Whether this constitutes a "swoop" I cannot say.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waltappel 1 #114 May 31, 2007 QuoteI didn't see him, he came from above and behind. I am told he was coming out of a spiral to get down quickly. Whether this constitutes a "swoop" I cannot say. Whatever the case, it constituted a near fatality and serves as more clear evidence that we, as a community, need to take action. Walt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skypuppy 1 #115 May 31, 2007 Over the last 4 years and 212 deaths, there is only 4 that where done by people swooping or trying to swoop!!! __________________________________________________ Hmmm. There was two at Crosskeys (I think) a couple of years ago, then Danny Page and Bob, and one in Arizona recently that started a swoop and then panick-turned to avoid another canopy. That's 5 off the top of my head, and I haven't gone looking. I doubt your numbers.If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead. Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratostar 5 #116 May 31, 2007 And Roger.you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #117 May 31, 2007 QuoteOver the last 4 years and 212 deaths, there is only 4 that where done by people swooping or trying to swoop!!! __________________________________________________ Hmmm. There was two at Crosskeys (I think) a couple of years ago, then Danny Page and Bob, and one in Arizona recently that started a swoop and then panick-turned to avoid another canopy. That's 5 off the top of my head, and I haven't gone looking. I doubt your numbers. The jumper that swooped into the truck at WFFC last year, as well... *edit to add* Fatalities database shows 66 fatalities out of 212 as "landing". How many of those were failed swoops, I don't know - I haven't researched it. It *does* show, however, that we're killing ourselves landing at a higher rate than the other categories. Collisions (34) 16% Landings (66) 31% No Pulls (16) 8% Malfunctions (39) 18% Reserve Problems (15) 7% Other (29) 14% Total (212)Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bob.dino 1 #118 May 31, 2007 QuoteI am told he was coming out of a spiral to get down quickly. Whether this constitutes a "swoop" I cannot say. Based on your description, it really doesn't sound like a swoop. Sounds like someone spiralling over the landing area, and something that the proposed BSR would do nothing to mitigate. edit: not that I'm against the BSR. If properly written, it would be very useful. It is, however, far from a comprehensive solution. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,146 #119 May 31, 2007 QuoteQuoteI am told he was coming out of a spiral to get down quickly. Whether this constitutes a "swoop" I cannot say. Based on your description, it really doesn't sound like a swoop. Sounds like someone spiralling over the landing area, and something that the proposed BSR would do nothing to mitigate. edit: not that I'm against the BSR. If properly written, it would be very useful. It is, however, far from a comprehensive solution. It's still a non-standard pattern - we hit at approx 100' agl.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
klingeme 1 #120 May 31, 2007 QuoteOver the last 4 years and 212 deaths, there is only 4 that where done by people swooping or trying to swoop!!! Quote Oh, just 4 completely avoidable funerals and 4 bereaved families. I guess that doesn't matter then. And it would be 212 families and funerals if we were not allowed to skydive at all. Should that be the rule? We all sign the waiver and know the risks involved and accept them. If you don't accept them, stop jumping until the rules suit your risk accessment acceptability. Mark Klingellhoefer Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,146 #121 May 31, 2007 QuoteQuoteOver the last 4 years and 212 deaths, there is only 4 that where done by people swooping or trying to swoop!!! Quote Oh, just 4 completely avoidable funerals and 4 bereaved families. I guess that doesn't matter then. And it would be 212 families and funerals if we were not allowed to skydive at all. Should that be the rule? We all sign the waiver and know the risks involved and accept them. If you don't accept them, stop jumping until the rules suit your risk accessment acceptability. Mark Klingellhoefer If you want to risk YOUR life skydiving, scuba diving, climbing Everest..., that's fine with me. It's killing OTHER people that's the issue here.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
klingeme 1 #122 May 31, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteOver the last 4 years and 212 deaths, there is only 4 that where done by people swooping or trying to swoop!!! Quote Oh, just 4 completely avoidable funerals and 4 bereaved families. I guess that doesn't matter then. And it would be 212 families and funerals if we were not allowed to skydive at all. Should that be the rule? We all sign the waiver and know the risks involved and accept them. If you don't accept them, stop jumping until the rules suit your risk accessment acceptability. Mark Klingellhoefer If you want to risk YOUR life skydiving, scuba diving, climbing Everest..., that's fine with me. It's killing OTHER people that's the issue here. Then I would not ever suggest paying a packer to pack your main, or a rigger you don't know personally (And trust your life to) packing your reserve, or getting on a skydive with anyone you don't know and 100% trust their skills. All three of these things could kill you on any jump. Not to mention pilots you don't know or DZO's you don't know for upkeep of the plane...... There are lots of risks in our sport and any one of these could kill you. Mark Klingelhoefer Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #123 May 31, 2007 QuoteThere are lots of risks in our sport and any one of these could kill you. some people seem to forget the saying: "You can do everything right on your skydive, yet still die". and if they don't understand why this is said, then maybe they should question why they jump in the first place. You can't legislate safety into the world. Governments have been trying to do it for years now and it only produces two types of people. Boring sheep and rebels. Most of us who jump have a little rebel in us despite the sheeps clothing we often wear. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,107 #124 May 31, 2007 >and it only produces two types of people. Boring sheep and rebels. So I have to ask. Do you skydive after drinking, exit so you can punch clouds, and pull at 800 feet - or are you a boring sheep? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #125 May 31, 2007 QuoteDo you skydive after drinking No Quoteexit so you can punch clouds normally no, but I have punched clouds at places like Rantoul. Quoteand pull at 800 feet Skydiving? No ... BASE jumping? different story Quoteor are you a boring sheep? Well I will have to leave that question up to the people who know me. To some of them, maybe I am boring. It's not my call. "You can do everything right on your next skydive and still die". Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
