Slow or High Speed Mal: Which is harder to deal with?

[Michele 1]

I was talking to a friend today, and was wondering which would be harder to handle appropriately; a high speed mal, or a slow speed mal?

Definitions:
High speed is anything where you don't slow to inflated canopy speed at the beginning of the mal (i.e. PC in tow, horseshoe, bag/container lock).

Low speed is anything which starts slow, and either speeds up or doesn't (i.e. line twists, stuck brake line, tear in canopy).

Personally, I think that they are both hard to handle, with a slight edge to the ones which are "slow." I think that sometimes, people second guess themselves with a slow speed, and either cut something which they had the alti to handle, or didn't cut something and landed a crippled canopy.

I think high speed mals are more easily recognized and dealt rapidly with, and the extra time a slow speed mal gives allows for complications such as alti awareness loss, and other things.

I'm interested in hearing your opinion.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[rwieder 0]

personally, my plan is to deal with either like their happening at 300 mph!

-Richard-
"You're Holding The Rope And I'm Taking The Fall"

[AggieDave 6]

I think the more dangerous are spinning linetwists. You say to yourself "ah its only linetwists" but due to the orientation of the canopy you're doing about 70mph vertically still. Altitude awareness is very easy to loose in that scenerio (trust me on that one).

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Gravitymaster 0]

Quote

I think the more dangerous are spinning linetwists. You say to yourself "ah its only linetwists" but due to the orientation of the canopy you're doing about 70mph vertically still. Altitude awareness is very easy to loose in that scenerio (trust me on that one).

I agree. I just had one of them today.

[diablopilot 2]

I think the worst mal I caouls think of would be a horseshoe.

High speeds are pretty easy. Nothing slowing you down? Put something out.

Diving linetwists? Get rid of it or make them stop.

The one that would give me the fits is a couple broken lines on a Tandem main. Or maybe a large tear in the canopy. It might be flying just fine, but may not be landable, or gets worse the more you fly it. Choping from that is something that would scare me a bit.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Michele 1]

Quote

I think the more dangerous are spinning linetwists. You say to yourself "ah its only linetwists" but due to the orientation of the canopy you're doing about 70mph vertically still. Altitude awareness is very easy to loose in that scenerio (trust me on that one).

LOL, I trust you. It wasn't spinning, but I lost alti awareness on line twists...one of the things I was talking about this afternoon was that occurance. I made mistakes, and really should've cut. I didn't, and it was my misreading the situation (because it's not happening "fast") led to the error in judgment.

Funari, you give exactly the sort of things that I think make slow speed mals harder to handle...you have time to second guess, triple guess, over think something...and may try to land something unlandable (i.e. a tear which suddenly gets bigger at 100 feet...).

And yeah, a horseshoe is the scariest thing I can think of, other than a canopy collision/wrap.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[airtwardo 7]

In my humble opinion...

Slow malfunctions are more difficult.
There is more to do, and more time to think about it!

If you have a total, streamer or a pilot chute in tow
by the time you realize the problem & give it that
extra heart beat to 'work it self out'
you know you're low and fast and better
hit it and git it...like NOW.

Functions featuring a nearly working parachute
require more thinking and less reaction..
at least for me anyway.

How high am I...how bad is it...can I clear it...
now how high am I...wonder if this will work...
or how about this...how LOW am I...
look at the handles...where is everyone else...legs back....
Peel & Punch...lather... rinse...repeat!

And I agree, horseshoes are icky!

Try to clear it ONE time...start plan B

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[obelixtim 150]

Fast ones are easy to make a decision about....because you have no choice but to deal with it instantly......the consequences of indecision are severe.......

Slow ones are more insidious......making a decision is a little harder....even though the consequences are usually not as severe.....

I had a fast horseshoe on my first freefall.....there was instant recognition of the problem and instant reaction to it...

At about 400 jumps I had a slow mal which I stupidly messed with until I was too low to chop it....rode it in.....but got caught by unanticipated turbulence at 50 ft which collapsed the canopy and smashed me into the deck.....I walked away but it hurt.....

The point to be reiterated is to make a decision and act on it instantly.......always trust your reserve......when in doubt, whip it out.......student training stuff is always valid.......

I found that a little experience can be a dangerous thing............

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[ThighMan 5]

It is not just the speed but how quickly you recognize and deal with the problem. High speed is quicker but dealing with a slow speed (forgetting that you can cut away at a high altitude) can do the same thing.
Patrick

Airborne
Blue Skies, No Wind
Feet and Knees Together

[Gravitymaster 0]

Just look through the fatality data base. How many deaths from spinning malfunctions, stuck toggles,etc.? I don't recall too many high speeds that weren't suicides in comparison.

[mouth 0]

Having had one of each I'd say the slow speed is the worst. I really thought I had the problem licked then I found another problem. I lost altitude awareness but thankfully was still ablove my hard deck when I punched out.

The high speed was lots easier because nothing was happening and I knew in about 3 seconds nothing else would solve my problem. Punched out and was under my reserve by 1500.

I still voted for both being tough because anytime you rely on your backup system (reserve) there is the chance of something going wrong with nothing else you can do.

Yes, that thought went through my mind as I was dealing with the frickin' main pilot chite wrapped around my reserve riser and toggle. It was either get it off or deal with a load of crap on landing because every time I touched the risers it went crazy. Not like there was another choice there.

--
Hot Mama
At least you know where you stand even if it is in a pile of shit.

[diverdriver 7]

Slow speed mal. You think you have more time than you do to make a choice. You can get lulled into a corner.

3 pilots watch a 50 cent lightbulb that is burned out while their plane slowly descends into the Florida Everglades. Seems silly right?

Pilot has the right engine blow to pieces and so he brings it around and lands it will all on board cheering him.

One seems obvious in how it can lead to catastrophe. The other does not. Either one is capable of taking you out. But one is more insidious (sp?).

Beware the slowspeed, line twist, unable to kick out for no known reason ride it until impact or chopping at 200 feet type scenario. It creeps up on yah.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[tbrown 26]

All my cutaways (so far) were many years ago, but they were from square mains with 3 ring release on a piggyback system, soooo they're not very different.

I agree that a slow malfunction can lull you into a loss of altitude awareness, as I once dicked around with a problem all the way down to 1200 ft before chopping. All I learned from that was that I could get away with it and my reserve (a round at the time) would open really quick. It was dumb.

But the streamer malfunction I chopped was tougher. They're really disorienting, I was whirling around under the suspension lines which never really felt like they were doing anything. I knew I was in really serious trouble and was pumping gobs of adrenaline, but I had to focus on just looking at my chest for my handles because everything else was just spinning around. I found them and pulled them one-two and was sitting in just above 1500 ft, but it was a lot scarier and took more effort to keep my reactions under control.

The mere thought of a horseshoe is sickening.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[AndyMan 7]

I worry most about spinning malfunctions.

They're somewhere inbetween a fast malfunction and a slow one - the fact is that you really don't know how fast you're going. My protrack has clocked me at in excess of 100+MPH in a spin, but I'm not sure how accurate it was.

Spinning malfunctions can twist your harness so that handles are hard to find. They often involve intaglements, so pulling your cuttaway handle might not be enough to free the main. You might need to cuttaway your helmet, either with a pre-installed cuttaway system or a hook-knife, or just by undoing a buckle.

Once you finally free yourself of the main, then you need to locate and pull your reserve handle, which has invariably moved as your harness shifts.

You need to do all this with enough time to deploy your reserve in time, but are completely unable to figure out in advance how much time you have - all because you don't know how fast you're falling.

An RSL would simplify the case significantly, but it doesn't work with big, ugly camera helmet setups...

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[Ron 10]

Good question.

Many people say that a slow speed mal is the worst. They ahve very good reasons to think that. The biggest has to be "I think I can fix it".

However, I think the high speed ones are worse.

The only reason I feel that way is that they are high speed, and you don't have time to think.

6 seconds per thousand feet is not a lot of time.

Time distorts during any mal and while a slow speed mal might shift your clock into slow...A high speed mal does the same, but you have less time to deal with it.

Even some of the low speed mals become high speed afetr a cut away.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[FrogNog 1]

I voted "both are hard" but I would rather have a low-speed malfunction, personally.

With spins, I happen to be enough of a chicken that if I ever get one that slings me more than 360 degrees before I'm out, I feel confident I'll chop it. The tapered rectangles I've been flying so far have never spun further than that.

In terms of "I can fix this-itis", I know I'd rather have a virtually-guaranteed 1,500-foot or 1,000-foot $50 subterminal reserve opening than a main canopy that may not untwist or have good toggles. (That's why I try to untwist or fix my toggles early and fast. )

-=-=-=-=-
Pull.

[AMax 0]

Quote

Just look through the fatality data base. How many deaths from spinning malfunctions, stuck toggles,etc.? I don't recall too many high speeds that weren't suicides in comparison.

There were a few due to high speed malfunctions followed by main-reserve entanglement in last two years. Not as many as from low speed but we should consider the fact that the number of low speed malfunctions is greater.

[Ron 10]

Quote

Just look through the fatality data base. How many deaths from spinning malfunctions, stuck toggles,etc.? I don't recall too many high speeds that weren't suicides in comparison.

The popularity of modern AAD's has reduced the number of fatalities due to high speed mals.

The rate of AAD fires is greater than the number of fatalities pre-AAD.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[flipper 0]

With you on the tandem one - had a set 400 blow about 4 / 5 lines and 2 cells - it was flying straight and level no probs -but wasnt landable -

[Casurf1978 0]

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I worry most about spinning malfunctions.

What's the most common cause of a spinning mal? Just curious. Also are spinners more common amongst certain canopy types, like HP?

[AggieDave 6]

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What's the most common cause of a spinning mal? Just curious. Also are spinners more common amongst certain canopy types, like HP?

Uneven linetwists. It can happen easier on HP canopies but it can happen on low wingloading "low performance" canopies.

I've had a spinning mal due to a tension knot and a spinning mal due to screwed up packjob that gave me lines going around canopy, etc.

Those were on tandems and it still spun pretty good.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[AndyMan 7]

Quote

What's the most common cause of a spinning mal? Just curious. Also are spinners more common amongst certain canopy types, like HP?

Packing errors and poor body position. Pay special attention to properly stowing your break lines.

Some people say spinning malfunctions are more common on high performance canopies, but my experience so far is the opposite. In 200 jumps, I had a spinning malfunction under my Triathlon loaded at 1.0. In 500 jumps, I have not had one under my Stiletto loaded at 1.8. You shouldn't read too much into any of this, other than to say that it can happen under any canopy, and you should be prepared on every jump.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[mjosparky 4]

Hey Lady,

Treat them all as high speed. Evaluate, make your decision and act as fast as your knowledge and experience will allow. Most ram air malfunctions, high speed or low speed, will only get worse.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Michele 1]

Agreed, Sparky, no doubt.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[ChileRelleno 0]

I've had both a slow and high speed mal's, bad line twist with a flying canopy (1500 harddeck chop-n-pop) and a horseshoe (threw pc then chopped), neither of'em seemed hard...
I don't recall actually thinking anything thru, just recognition and then reaction as trained and drilled. I'm always going over differrent "E" procedures in my head and as a result I found that my responses are somewhat automatic. Sure some would say that some mal's have more than one suggested way to deal with'em or that one way is better than another, but in a highspeed mal you may not have time to assess and decide.

ChileRelleno-Rodriguez Bro#414
Hellfish#511,MuffBro#3532,AnvilBro#9, D24868