convenience of having heart defillibrators at dz?

[windcatcher 0]

So here is my naive newbie question, would it be a good idea to have heart defillibrators at the dz? Or is that just a stupid idea? I mean, I really don't know what to think, I would love to try and make certain aspects of this sport safer if possible...if somebody was injured, would the use of a defillibrator save them? Or is it pretty much, if ya get hurt, pound in, and need a defillibrator, you're a goner?
I'm just asking, I'm sure it could be used to save someone's life in some instance at the dz...

Mother to the cutest little thing in the world...

[Zoter 0]

Just for the record ...Im sure you mean DEfibrillator
We use 'fibrillators' to STOP the heart during heart surgery.
There is an increasing trend for 'AED's' (automatic defibrillators) to be placed in all sorts of public places ( airports. rails stations, corporate offices). These devices require a minimum of training and actually analyse the heart rhythm automatically ....and will defibrillate if the heart rhythm is suitable.
Theres's no reason that they shouldnt eventually be part of any permanant established 'emergency medical kit'

Defibs are fine anywhere as long as there is a 'need' and somone is trained to use them.
And its no secret that the most important thing in positive outcomes of cardiac arrests that require defibrillation....is EARLY defibrillation.

Should they be on a DZ? well AED's should be everywhere that has a large public population ....no problem there....but specifically there to assist because of skydiving related events....is debateable.
..Correct me if I am wrong....but from what I see most serious acute traumas at DZ's are usually high speed events....and although the heart rhythm may require defibrillation I'll be willing to bet thats as a result to acute cardiac trauma ( bust ribs puncturing the heart......the heart pedacle being torn causing aortic rupture...etc) .....when the cardiac rhythm is secondary to such acute traumas....the importance of a defibrillator is 'on par' in importance to access of qualified acute emergency medical services ( Medevac etc)

I'm all for Defibs in public places though....for sure....although... manual defibs will provide much more entertainment on weather holds ....(I jest)

[windcatcher 0]

haha, thanks, I guess I don't know much about DEfillibrators, which is why I asked the question...and you're probably right, they might not have much use for at the dz, except for maybe shocking someone while waiting for the winds to die down.

(btw, I DO know that they can be dangerous!)
(that hasn't stopped skydivers before, has it?)

Mother to the cutest little thing in the world...

[diablopilot 2]

Do you know how to use one? Do you know what they are for? Do you know anyone at the DZ trained to use one?

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Zoter 0]

Dunno about the States....but over here....you dont have to be a Medic or have any other 'Medical training' beyond being a first aider to learn how to use an AED ( automatic defib)....takes about half a day to train you....and its pretty much foolproof.

They are common now in public places....

[sunshine 2]

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and you're probably right, they might not have much use for at the dz, except for maybe shocking someone while waiting for the winds to die down

I'm an AED instructor. I realize you were joking with that statement, but an AED will not shock someone that doesn't need it. The way they work, they read the heart rythym and will tell you if the victim needs a shock or not. If the AED says shock needed you would press a button to deliver the shock. If the victim doesn't need the shock, you can press that button all you want, but it won't deliver the shock.

Anyhoo, most injuries at a DZ will not benifit from an AED. They're most benificial in sudden cardiac arrest situations. But since i am an instructor, i do urge everyone to go learn how to use one, along with learning CPR and basic First Aid. You just never know when you can save a life.

___________________________________________
meow

I get a Mike hug! I get a Mike hug!

[mjosparky 4]

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Do you know how to use one? Do you know what they are for? Do you know anyone at the DZ trained to use one?

Yes.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[diablopilot 2]

Ditto!

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[AggieDave 6]

Sure its a good idea, HOWEVER, you would have to have licensed and trained people to operate it. Same with backboards, etc.

Why?

Liability.

It would be better to just call 911, legally, and wait then try to help. Sure there are good samaritan laws, but civil suits can get around those.

Of course I'm thinking of this from a student skydiver and 1st jump tandem passenger point of view, not an experienced jumper point of view.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[headoverheels 334]

Yes, as long as you have that LED to light up in your plastic side, so I can tell I placed the contacts correctly!

[kelpdiver 2]

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It would be better to just call 911, legally, and wait then try to help. Sure there are good samaritan laws, but civil suits can get around those.

Of course I'm thinking of this from a student skydiver and 1st jump tandem passenger point of view, not an experienced jumper point of view.

Every minute you wait decreases the odds that the AED will work. This is a lame excuse to wait, if there were actually a great need for such devices. It's hard to misuse the devices.

But given the nature of injuries and the general youth and health of the participants, there doesn't seem to be much of an application rate.

[AggieDave 6]

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But given the nature of injuries and the general youth and health of the participants, there doesn't seem to be much of an application rate.

Another good reason.

This is also why I turned down a tandem skydive while visiting another DZ close to mine a while back. None of the other TIs on the DZ would take the guy, so they asked me. I said, nope. He was on the strongest blood pressure meds available by a doctor, his skin was a greyish color and his eyes were cloudy. Uhhh...NOPE.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[windcatcher 0]

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Anyhoo, most injuries at a DZ will not benifit from an AED. They're most benificial in sudden cardiac arrest situations. But since i am an instructor, i do urge everyone to go learn how to use one, along with learning CPR and basic First Aid. You just never know when you can save a life.

hey girl, that's awesome! I had to take CPR when I was an art ed. major, it's awesome knowing how to save a life.

Mother to the cutest little thing in the world...

[Casurf1978 0]

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But given the nature of injuries and the general youth and health of the participants, there doesn't seem to be much of an application rate.

Another good reason.

This is also why I turned down a tandem skydive while visiting another DZ close to mine a while back. None of the other TIs on the DZ would take the guy, so they asked me. I said, nope. He was on the strongest blood pressure meds available by a doctor, his skin was a greyish color and his eyes were cloudy. Uhhh...NOPE.

Just curious but do TIs and other intructors know basic CPR and first aid? I know that the nature of injurys in this sport can vary from sprained ankles to major bodily trauma, but sometimes knowing what not to do is the best thing.

[Zoter 0]

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but sometimes knowing what not to do is the best thing.

No no no no no....please tell me thats not the way it is ...
The reverse, when it comes to Basic Life Support is so much more important

[AggieDave 6]

I do, but I'm not sure about other instructors. However, if I'm doing a tandem and it ends up that my student actually needs first aid beyond "don't move, you broke your ankle, the EMTs will be here soon" then I'll probably need first aid as well.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Casurf1978 0]

. No, no, no. I didnt mean if someones having a heart attack just to stand around and watch him go down on the floor. What I meant was in scenarios of lets say back injuries, not moving the person is best, or lets say broken femur and the legs is all bent in weird angels not moving the leg is the best scenario.

[Zoter 0]

But what if.....
and probably most likely at a DZ....they have all that AND are in cardiac arrest....
Would you hold back from applying CPR based on the fact they may end up with a broken neck as you put them on their back ?
I appreciate the differences in liability between here and the US....but damn....if its my life on the line ....and the EMS unavailability vs ' third party with BLS training' availability is the issue....I know what I would want.......and would only offer thanks for the effort irrespective of the outcome

[billvon 3,114]

Some thoughts:

1. It would be nice to have.

2. Given the population of most DZ's, basic airways/splints/IV bags etc will be a lot more useful if there is an incident and there is someone qualified there. It seems like 90% of the life-threatening medical situations on a DZ involve trauma, not sudden onset cardiac problems.

3. You have to be trained to use an AED. And if you're going to take the time to train people to do something, training them to land their canopies is going to save a lot more lives.

[billvon 3,114]

>>but sometimes knowing what not to do is the best thing.

>No no no no no....please tell me thats not the way it is ...

That is definitely the way it is! I have seen far more cases where people did too much rather than too little. Some examples:

-Do NOT remove people's helmets except under very specific conditions (basically, if they will certainly die if you do not)

-Do NOT try to 'clear a C-spine' if they've been involved in a serious impact. (this means don't ask them if their back hurts then let them try to get up if it doesn't.)

90% of first responder training is knowing what not to do, and in which very specific instances to try to do something. The other 10% of training is how to do CPR etc. This makes sense, since way more than 90% of the instances a first responder will see will not require anything more than stabilizing the victim and waiting for EMS.

[Zoter 0]

Bill.....I think you must have missed a portion of my post to which my comments have been related

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But what if.....
and probably most likely at a DZ....they have all that AND are in cardiac arrest....

Are you still suggesting that you withhold CPR because they may have secondary injuries that you 'dont want to make any worse' ?

[cvfd1399 0]

One of the 3 or 4 contradictions to using a defib is mass trauma. The others are drowding, and if the person is under a certain body weight. What your trying to do in a heart attack situation is make the heart stop fluttering(it flutters so fast it does not actually "Pump" blood) in order to do this you have to restart the heart with a electrical "reboot". The problem with mass trauma v.s. a heart attack is that in a mass trauma incident you are trying to restart the heart when the heart is not the problem. The problem is caused of v-fib was not the hearts fault I.E. a severed spinal cord that stopped breathing which caused cardiac arrest, ect. A defib could not help you in this situation. Also there has to be a "CERTAIN" heart rhythm in the patients heart before it will shock. You cannot just hook it up like in the movies and push a button with the new automatic defibs and shock someone with to electrical activity in the heart (a-systole)

[councilman24 37]

Availability and Medical control vary from state to state. I was informed Indiana trys to give them away and provide maintenance and training. Here in Michigan they still are supposed to be under some medical control authority and essentially by prescription.

Again, small likely hood of use at a DZ. More likely spectators than jumpers. Not much use in traumatic arrest.

I have to be trained every 6 months.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[Zoter 0]

Only problem is .....unless the severity of the "mass" trauma is 'instantly assessable' ......and you dont have to use much imagination to think about what that looks like....its going to be 'difficult' for the first responder to accurately assess that the heart rhythm is secondary to trauma and not worth resuscitation.......thats the decision of a qualified medic to make.

If as part of an 'A B C ' assesment you think that an AED is warrented.....let it do its job.....if it doesnt need to shock or the rhythm is not shockable.....it wont ( most of the time )......but that should not stop someone carrying on with ABC asessments and CPR (if necessary0 until a qualified unit can take over...

[mjosparky 4]

I don't think you understand. In almost every case cardiac arrest at a drop zone is brought on by massive trauma. It is "instantly assessable"(sp) due to the mechanism of injury. Impact with the ground at speeds above 50 or 60 mph. In 28+ years of jumping I have yet to see a case where AED would be used.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals