riggerrob 643 #26 June 20, 2007 Similarly, the last time Adam pulled low - and landed a minute ahead of much faster swooping canopies - I complimented him on his "grand opening" and told manifest. The challenge is finding a way to inject a bit of humor into the "I saw you do something silly" message. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AFFI 0 #27 June 20, 2007 Quoteanalogy - DZ1 thinks the 45 degree rule is a great thing (they are wrong, but they mean well and ALL the instructors and old timers really drill it into the heads of the jumpers). So DZ1 jumper visits DZ2 and he causes real issues and near misses. I'm not a proponent of the idea myself, but am curious as to how the "45 degree rule" causes near misses?Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #28 June 20, 2007 QuoteI'm not a proponent of the idea myself, but am curious as to how the "45 degree rule" causes near misses? digression but - on a high wind uppers, low ground wind day, it could cause people to take a lot less separation than they need ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,148 #29 June 20, 2007 QuoteQuoteanalogy - DZ1 thinks the 45 degree rule is a great thing (they are wrong, but they mean well and ALL the instructors and old timers really drill it into the heads of the jumpers). So DZ1 jumper visits DZ2 and he causes real issues and near misses. I'm not a proponent of the idea myself, but am curious as to how the "45 degree rule" causes near misses? Because as a rule for ensuring adequate separation, it doesn't work.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #30 June 20, 2007 Quote I suppose you could call me that. In fact its gotton to a point when Im watchin landing with a group and someone messes up, everyone looks at me. Wierd. What to I get? Comments behind my back, attitude, and a safer DZ. Yup. Even the S&TA is backing me, well, at least until I screw up. (Which I've been known to do) Im seeing lower number jumpers talking to each other after minor incidents (landing too close to each other, cutting off, etc) They're not waiting on anyone now. On the ride to altitude we sound off those that will be swooping. We repeat the pattern and landing direction for the main landing area. In the long run, Im getting a safer DZ with aware pilots. In the short term, Im getting a headache. Oh, and the biggest whine: "Why are you always picking on ME?" Glad you took over that job at my old DZ John. Thankfully The Farm mostly has their shit together and I don't need to do that stuff nearly as much as I used to. It sucks being the bad guy, but someone has to do it. I enjoy my trips to the dz more now that it's rarely necessary. It's funny though, how the very people you're trying to keep alive, feel nothing for slamming you behind your back. No good deed goes unpunished Blues, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mirage62 0 #31 June 20, 2007 Quote Bullshit...you are the one suggesting diffreently. You are the one proposing BSR. BSR takes the decision making process from the skydiver and from the DZ. BULLSHIT, jeez...........Bills the ONLY one suggesting a BSR?????Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #32 June 20, 2007 QuoteQuoteanalogy - DZ1 thinks the 45 degree rule is a great thing (they are wrong, but they mean well and ALL the instructors and old timers really drill it into the heads of the jumpers). So DZ1 jumper visits DZ2 and he causes real issues and near misses. I'm not a proponent of the idea myself, but am curious as to how the "45 degree rule" causes near misses? Maybe better is the real life examples of some DZOs here that think freefliers out before belly is good and they "train" that into their customers who go and visit your DZ in the winter...... ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #33 June 20, 2007 QuoteAgree that visiting other DZ with completely different rules and expectations can cause conflict - especially if every DZO doesn't have a best practices standard to work with. Wrong. There are a few things that are hard fast rules when it comes to flying canopies. 1. Fly a pattern 2. Using the "holding area" (the time after opening before the beginning of the patter) to ensure proper vertical and horizontal seperation under canopy. 3. Don't swoop in traffic. Those are 3 basic rules that apply to everyone at every DZ. The problems come from people that either aren't taught that or don't care. Actually whats worst are the people that are too skygod to follow those rules. Those people I see typically aren't the swoopers, they're other competitive skydivers that are flying canopies too agressive for their canopy flying ability, but not too aggressive for their inflated ego. QuoteYou can have the best instruction in Texas, and the best (but different) instruction in Arizona, and if they are taught two different things excellently, You say that but I was nearly killed by a home grown SD AZ 4-way flier who decided it would be a good idea to pull an aggressive 90deg front riser turn in traffic after a 50-way. If I hadn't been watching him while trying to get some sort of seperation from the other jumpers, he would have gone through my canopy at about 200ft. If I hadn't gone into DEEP brakes quickly we would be be dead. Then having to use that evasive maneuver so low to the ground, that screwed everyone up behind me in the pattern too. The moral of the story isn't that different DZs are teaching things that differently in regards to the above 3 "rules." Its just that they're not doing enough to "educate" their problems. Luckily some SD AZ jumpers were on the ground and saw the above incident and squared him away after he denied everything when I tactfully asked him about it. SD AZ's new rule wouldn't have prevented that, either. Will a BSR fix our problems? Nope. Will a BSR be enforcable? Obviously they are, since no one without ratings conduct AFF or tandem jumps ever, right? No one ever falls through a cloud on purpose and no one ever deploys lower then the BSR allowed limit. And when they do, they're severely punished, right? Wait, they're not and there's no enforcement anywhere? Ok, then lets stop trying to get the governing body to place an unenforceable rule in place and lets start trying to work at your own DZ on your own jumpers with canopy problems.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #34 June 20, 2007 QuoteWill a BSR fix our problems? Ah, thread drift. Aren't there a bunch of threads discussing the proposed BSR already? Does this one need to be turned into yet another rehash of what's being said in those threads? Simple questions. Does your dz have seperate landing areas? If not, your input doesn't add much to the point of this thread. If so, how are jumpers responding to the seperation? Who is tasked with speaking to those who refuse to land in the area designated for how they land? If that's you, how are jumpers responding to your attempts to educate them? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #35 June 20, 2007 Yes it does have seperate landing areas. QuoteIf so, how are jumpers responding to the seperation? They're responding fine, since we've had the seperate ares since we moved to these hangers over 5 years ago. QuoteWho is tasked with speaking to those who refuse to land in the area designated for how they land? The S&TA is "tasked" but the top canopy pilots at the DZ typically do the "pulling aside and talk." However, some of our lower time jumpers have been known to call out others as well. QuoteIf that's you, how are jumpers responding to your attempts to educate them? So far really well and I've been able to help reteach some really poor past instruction with correct information for some various visiting jumpers. As for the thread drift, sorry I was responding to another's post and thanks for helping miss-ex-mod.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dharma1976 0 #36 June 20, 2007 QuoteYes, I am the police. Any one who has ever said "Someone should go talk to them" is part of the problem. I have been policed by JP I have to say it is much better than people taking the approach that oh someone wont listen which happens a lot... JP I still think about that landing and how you asked me if I saw the other guy... It makes me look that much harder on every landing... Keep up the good police work JP Davehttp://www.skyjunky.com CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #37 June 20, 2007 QuoteWrong. followed by a bunch of stuff that agrees with my post I think you're knee jerking on your perception of the whole BSR thing But what would I know? I'm not a "fill in the blank" QuoteThose are 3 basic rules that apply to everyone at every DZ. so you agree there are best practices that "should" be in place? that these are your your 3 basic safety recommendations to all the DZs? ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #38 June 20, 2007 Quoteso you agree there are best practices that "should" be in place? that these are your your 3 basic safety recommendations to all the DZs? Its on the same level as saying "don't track into someone" or "get seperation for deployment." Its a given in the sport, not something that necissarily should have to be written down. It should be a given and generally it seems to be, except for a few assholes. Those select cases take people stepping up at their DZ and take it upon themselves to tactfully bring it to their attention. If tactful education doesn't work, then its the S&TA's job to get with the DZO and boot the jumper from the DZ. Just like its supposedly been done for years, it just hasn't been done if you're a "cool" kid on the DZ.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #39 June 20, 2007 Quote So far really well and I've been able to help reteach some really poor past instruction with correct information for some various visiting jumpers. Thank you. That is exactly the kind of info I'm looking for. Quote As for the thread drift, sorry I was responding to another's post and thanks for helping miss-ex-mod. No problem. Glad I could show you the error of your ways, mr-po-liceman. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumper03 0 #40 June 21, 2007 Quote Quote If that's you, how are jumpers responding to your attempts to educate them? So far really well In other words, every dz needs a gorilla to come looming out of the hanger when the landing pattern is fubared...Who the hell wouldn't shape up and 're-learn' if a 6-4 cop that can eat nails AND out swoop you comes up to you to 're-teach' you! Scars remind us that the past is real Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #41 June 21, 2007 pffff.... Dave's a marshmallow... Actually, he gets his point across very well and doesn't intimidate.... Speaking of which, Dave... I'm probably gonna be bugging you and Mark about showing me some mantis stuff, this next vacation. Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #42 June 21, 2007 [This is more of a general response re: how I'd deal with separate landing areas, since the DZ I've been jumping at most regularly recently does not have separated landing areas.] I'll be perfectly honest here - I wish I were more comfortable being outspoken about landing issues. But more often than not I end up standing next to my friends saying "holy shit, did you see that stupid move?" but not actually doing a damned thing about it. Part of it is that I generally avoid confrontation... I'm kinda chicken shit when it comes down to it. Part of it is that I have my own struggles with landing (not with patterns, but with standing up consistently) and don't necessarily feel like I've got any real credibility on the subject. Part of it is that I jump at so many different DZs that I don't really have one that is home turf and where I would have the credibility of a "regular." With 300 jumps I'm very conscious of not coming across as a "know-it-all" just because I've got a few jumps under my belt... so I would generally be reluctant to confront someone who has way more experience than me. At the same time, I've had people talk to me if I've done something unsafe (landing or otherwise) and I always try to be very welcome and open to the feedback even though I may want to get defensive (especially if it's given in an accusatory fashion in front of a large group ...but that's another story altogether). But I guess I don't give other skydivers the benefit of the doubt and I assume they're not going to react well to me calling them out. So yeah. I let other people be the police."There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZigZagMarquis 9 #43 June 21, 2007 Quote In other words, every dz needs a gorilla to come looming out of the hanger when the landing pattern is fubared... Yeah!! Instead of the trunk monkey it would be the grounding gorilla!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,148 #44 June 21, 2007 Quote Quote In other words, every dz needs a gorilla to come looming out of the hanger when the landing pattern is fubared... Yeah!! Instead of the trunk monkey it would be the grounding gorilla!! Not even a grounding gorilla can bring the dead back to life after a fatal canopy collision. The solution needs to be pre-emptive.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AFFI 0 #45 June 21, 2007 QuoteNot even a grounding gorilla can bring the dead back to life after a fatal canopy collision. The solution needs to be pre-emptive. But why would we want to? If that could be accomplished then there would be no reason to become more safety conscious. Collisions, loss of altitude awareness, not dealing with a malfunction properly, inducing a malfunction without sufficient altitude to recover, hooking it in, turning too low to recover trying to miss an obstacle etcetera etcetera etcetera… If we did not have skydivers dying, then there would be no reason for the rest of us to improve our safety habits, to improve our skills through training, or to consider more/less regulations in order to keep the rest of us alive a little longer – every now and then, we need the sacrificial lamb or two (or 10) to remind the rest of us that we are participating in a very dangerous and potentially deadly activity. If it was not dangerous, many of us would be out there risking our lives in some other activity, I know I would… Skydivers die skydiving, and it sucks, especially when it hits close to home, but so what? We assume that risk when we decided to exit an airplane from un-survivable altitudes. People jump out of freaking airplanes, then when things don’t go well for them they take others to court? People like that clearly did not consider the potential ramifications of what the hell they were willing to do or their motivations for doing it… If it bothers anyone that skydiving is dangerous, or it would be too much to handle having a friend or loved one perish skydiving, then perhaps it would be better to not skydive or know any skydivers. I hate the idea of my wife perishing in a skydiving mishap, but I understand that taking that risk is incredibly fulfilling for many who take on that lifestyle, for some of us, to be alive is to participate in such activities as it is for her, and for me. I have had doctors tell me that my skydiving days are over and I said “like hell they are”, and they just do not understand that, but many of us certainly do… K is totally correct, it needs to be pre-emptive, but how would we possibly know that if there was no reason for us to? Like friends perishing... -Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #46 June 21, 2007 QuoteBut why would we want to? If that could be accomplished then there would be no reason to become more safety conscious. - my apologies, but I'm not following your intent of this post - it comes across as "it's a good thing other people die, it make me more safety conscious and appreciative of the sport, we should let it continue" I'm sure I have the wrong take on it. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AFFI 0 #47 June 21, 2007 Not that it is good or bad, it just is - and it certainly does suck. I have been to more than my share of funerals throughout the course of my life, and have decided not to attend anymore until my wife perishes, and maybe not even hers. I prefer to remember people as they were, not shriveled up in some box or gurgling on their own blood… Not that we should or should not do anything in particular, it is in our nature to survive - self preservation and all that. So naturally we will do something, but sometimes actions taken are not always the best course, and sometimes they are... Let it continue? How in the hell are we going to stop people from dying and save them from themselves, especially with a one answer fits all solution? It has been freakish, this string of fatalities, but there have been other bizarre strings of fatalities that have made me scratch my head. Consider how many have died in jump plane accidents, and there is a ton of regulations to minimize this, but how many DZ’s out there do not maintain their airplanes up to the regulated minimums? I believe that many do, and I know for a fact (strongly suspect) that many of the jump planes I have been in are not within the maintenance regs… I boarded many of them anyway, even though I did not feel safe because jumping was more important to me than my safety at certain junctures of my life. So what, shut em all down??? That is also probably why I have been working at the same DZ for nearly 7 years, which is a long time for a guy like me to stay in one place, but everything about the place I work at is very well maintained, especially the airplanes. It is the all around best DZ to jump at that I could imagine, so I stay… If the thought of someone dying is too much to handle, then perhaps skydiving is not for everyone. If the thought of being taken out in traffic, dying in an airplane crash, or even getting some venereal disease after having unprotected sex from a 15 year old Costa Rican sex slave (no offense to my Rican friends out there), then don’t do those sorts of things or be selective as hell where you jump… If someone don’t like what is on the telly, change channels and all that... If we spend a bunch of resources creating more regs, they will be waiver-able or not adhered to, like so many of the regs in the world. Speeding is a leading cause of fatalities on the roadways, but how many of us drive faster than the posted speed limits even though it is a leading cause of fatalities? I would suspect that if no new regs were created; there has been already been enough carnage and tragedy to get people to take action at the local levels. -Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZigZagMarquis 9 #48 June 21, 2007 Quote Quote Quote In other words, every dz needs a gorilla to come looming out of the hanger when the landing pattern is fubared... Yeah!! Instead of the trunk monkey it would be the grounding gorilla!! Not even a grounding gorilla can bring the dead back to life after a fatal canopy collision. Yes, some things are beyond the power of even the grounding gorilla. However, I wish the grounding gorilla had been at my home DZ this past weekend to thump someone up-side the head after he landed crosswind in the experienced area well after the direction (into the wind) and pattern had been established. He came within seconds of taking another jumper out that was landing in the established direction. Upon it being mentioned to him, his reaction was, "Ah, no big deal, shit happens." * cue the grounding gorilla * (wish) This actually got him more of a talkin' to by the experienced locals then it initially was starting out to be. Thing is, my 2 cents, the more I hear of DZOs should have an established policy and enforce it and/or recommendations for BSR changes and additions, the less I think that realisticly this isn't going to happen consistently DZ to DZ and/or not really the way we'd want things to go. Realisticly, the most positive impact seems to come from the respected and even keeled locals from DZ to DZ having a "talking with" an offender it comes to landing problems. The jumper hookin' a crosswinder through the landing area against the established pattern / direction after some have already landed and others are setting up for that as well as the jumper doing huge S-turns under a massive canopy on final with folks stacked up behind him or her should equally get a "talkin to"; are two examples. Having said that, the application of such "common sense" rules seems to be where that model breaks down. For instance, what might get one a "talkin to" at one DZ may be "Yea-Haw" wasn't that fun, lets do it again at another. At the same time, a "tome" of a USPA BSRs Book feet thick covering landing etiqute, packing etiqute, farting etiqute, etc. doesn't seem very "attractive" to me either. I guess the best thing I've found that works is if y'all find yourselves in a situation where 3 or 4 or 5 of ya want to rip someone a new one because of a landing problem (without an injury or death involved), then, all things being equal, its probably best for only one of you to make, brief, mention of it to the person and go from there... i.e. see how they react to it... does the problem stop... etc. Now where did that grounding gorilla wander off to? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,116 #49 June 21, 2007 Mike/Spizz - please stop sniping at each other. I deleted a bunch of "you're whiny" "no I'm not" posts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZigZagMarquis 9 #50 June 22, 2007 Quote Quote Quote In other words, every dz needs a gorilla to come looming out of the hanger when the landing pattern is fubared... Yeah!! Instead of the trunk monkey it would be the grounding gorilla!! Not even a grounding gorilla can bring the dead back to life after a fatal canopy collision. The solution needs to be pre-emptive. Beware the grounding gorilla! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
