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billvon 3,088
>BSRs aren't going to solve all canopy collisions. Only we, the respective
>canopy pilots (that would be all of us) can avoid collisions up there.
I agree. It will not solve the problem; it will just be a good tool for DZO's and jumpers to help them solve the problem at their DZ's.
But at the same time, just because someone wants to swoop the high performance swoop lanes, doesn't just give them a green light to go for it without determining who else is planning on swooping. This visiting jumper said nothing to anybody. He just toggle whipped himself into the course without any thought of who else was swooping.
Both of us were guilty and both of us are lucky that we didn't collide.
Try not to worry about the things you have no control over
It's about communication prior to leaving the ground.
Agreed
just because someone wants to swoop the high performance swoop lanes, doesn't just give them a green light to go for it without determining who else is planning on swooping.
Agreed
Both of us were guilty and both of us are lucky that we didn't collide.
Agreed, now had you just posted something more along the lines of this the first time,
This visiting jumper said nothing to anybody. He just toggle whipped himself into the course without any thought of who else was swooping.
And left out all the stuff about canopy size, your post wouldn't have come off as condesending towards those who jump and swoop larger sized canopies as the ones who are the problem.
The only other issue I see as a problem is when you have 2 or 3 AC droping loads, kind of hard for me to tell you I'm swooping my bigass slow saber 170 if your not on my load.
As a person who also likes to swoop even if I have a big boat, I have as much right to shoot the gates/pond as everyone else, if your out after me and on another load and I'm lower slow or not, I have the right of way. Those of us who do fly larger canopies aren't thinking up new ways to hose those who fly pocket rockets, by also swooping the gates, we do however try to fly to be the last ones down on OUR load, it is easy to do these days with so many ground hungery hotrods in the sky with high WL's.
So now maybe we a LZ for students and one for classic A, and one for normal patterns and one for super swoopers with their hotrods, and one for us bigass boat swoop'n types and maybe one for the free for all crowd who don't like rules.
dob 0
Based on those numbers it should be easy to make whatever BSRs we can think up pass at USPA Board meetings.....
Get obsessed, stay obsessed....participate in your sport.
Voice your opinion on landing area issues to the USPA Directors, your DZO.....
http://uspa.org/contact/bod.htm
rhys 0
This is not rocket science.
Any skydiver with their head screwed on correctly would have to support separate landing areas.
It seems to me that the cost of implementing the second landing area is what is holding back the progress, Therefor a mandatory second landing area would have to be the safest option. without the second landing area....... No high speed approaches, whitout high speed approaches......less customers and less people willing to work at the said dropzone.......less income.
Simple
To discuss this issue on an international website and consider it to be a USPA problem is quite arrogant if you ask me Bill.
Canopy collisions are a concern worldwide, not just in the US of A.
mnealtx 0
It seems to me that the cost of implementing the second landing area is what is holding back the progress, Therefor a mandatory second landing area would have to be the safest option.
Separation in time - swoopers out first on a H&P or something similar.
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706
ROK 0
Hi All,
This is not rocket science.
Any skydiver with their head screwed on correctly would have to support separate landing areas.
I agree, and disagree...
Unless the landing areas are WIDELY separated, there will continue to be a chance of collision. This answer will work if it's logistically and economically possible to have two well separated LZ's, but keep in mind that we all fly back in the same general cone if we spot ourselves correctly. Most of us enter the LZ from the same general direction, share the same airspace, and concentrate on our set-ups and landings.
I watch for other canopies like a hawk, but I can't tell you how many times I've glanced away and looked back and lost that brightly colored other canopy in the sky.
If you want to make it truly safe, use timing. Let those that want to perform high speed turns and landings with highly loaded canopies exit first. Just like we do on many night jumps.
If you're flying back to back loads, put the highly loaded canopies in with every other load so we don't jump on top of each other.
Communication was mentioned above. How many of these problems would go away if the BSR didn't call for separate landing areas, but instead called for an experienced canopy pilot to organize each load on the ground before stepping on the plane?
Communication and timing are beautiful things. Saturday an instructor was doing a coach jump exiting after me. The instructor said, Robert do you mind if I swoop. I said no problem and flew in brakes until I saw him, and then followed him in at a good distance. Communication...
When you come across those that insist on doing everthing their way without regard for others, remove them from the mix.
Whatever happens will probably only be effective at a small number of DZs and I want to know which ones those are. Over time, it will all be forgotten or ignored anyway so what will we gain in the long run...very little.
I've seen it happening already.
After the Page-Holler fatality there was lots of big talk about landing areas and new rules being implememtned - Separate LZs for pattern and swooping and even an alternate area for anything other than pattern or swooping.
Here it is only 3 months after and DZs are already going back to complacent stupidity...
- Instructors swooping the pattern landing areas - cross-pattern no less.
- An S&TA doing the same claiming it's OK if you carve into final.
- Instructors landing against the pattern.
- Instructor getting on the bullhorn and reminding everyone of the landing pattern then on his very next jump swoops cross-pattern.
- DZO who made the new rules now blowing it off saying "Oh, they'll be alright."
I give up. No amount of talk, bitching, explaining, logic or assholism will change it. I will be making many more intentional off landings around those DZs.
The only ones really trying to follow some sort of logical process is the students and very young jumpers. That won't last long because they see the "more experienced" doing it and will eventually think that because THEY do it, it will be alright for THEM to do it.
I'm pissed. Skydiving is so much fun for me and I'm losing much of that sense because it's being replaced by anger.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
hukturn 0
No, the solution is not to segregate landing areas. What happens when a newby decides he wants to try swooping and hooks into someone at the swooping area? Is that any different than swooping into someone in the main landing pattern? The result is the same. You may actually add an aggrivating factor by segregating landing areas by increasing 1st response times to anyone who is injured. What happpens at a beach boogie where everyone is landing in the same pattern? You can not easily seperate landing areas. What happens when a student takes a long spot and turns his fial into the swoop area? No, I do not buy into the BSR arguement. The answer is at the local level, not Federal.
What happens when a newby decides he wants to try swooping and hooks into someone at the swooping area?
Newbie??
The ones I am most afraid of are the ones with 1000`s of Jumps. They already know it all and couldn’t possibly make a mistake, right?

What happpens at a beach boogie where everyone is landing in the same pattern?
Maybe designate the "Swoop" Area a Little Further up the Beach so that people flying a Standard pattern are not obstacles and/or pylons to carve around. Or let the Swoopers out on a lower pass where none of us Standard pattern flyers are in their way.
What happens when a student takes a long spot and turns his final into the swoop area?
What happens now? Every where is a Swoop area with the current rules.
They have already turned DZ’s into profit machines,
Last I checked that was the reason people take chances on an investment in a business. To make a profit. And with more profit usually comes better planes, Better Student Gear, Better Packing Facilities, and maybe even a new Swoop Pond. More power to them.
Let them determine what they need at their operation.
As long as they do not have Swoopers using me as a target, I am cool with that. But if they dont have a rules that says Swoopers should not Swoop through Slower Traffic, then they will loose a lot of that precious Business.
Jumpers do need to make a stand on this. If your DZ is not addressing this issues, Vote with your feet. Maybe an organized Boycott is what it will take to get DZO`s attention.
riggerrob 643
I'm new at skydiving and I assumed that a bigger lightly loaded canopie would be slower is this right or am i making an ass out of me again by assuming?
It doesn't have to make sense, It's just the way things are.
hukturn 0
A newby swooper...not a newby skydiver. He will make his approach onto the swooper area and cause problems.
"What happens now? Every where is a Swoop area with the current rules."
But when you intropduce students to the swopop[ area, you introduce increased hazards.
"Last I checked that was the reason people take chances on an investment in a business. To make a profit. And with more profit usually comes better planes, Better Student Gear, Better Packing Facilities, and maybe even a new Swoop Pond. More power to them."
Absolutely. But, don't take the money without accepting the responsibility. DZ's shouldn't push your probems off to someone else. DZ's should make a decision on how to handle and stick to it. Even if it means running off all of the talent on their DZ. Because a safe DZ is, well...safe. And that's cool. Even if I have to visit another DZ to make hot skydives. Similarly, maybe I should dump at 2000ft despite someone tracking over me. After all, I wouldn't want to pull low, right?!?
"As long as they have Swoopers using me as a target..."
I agree there, too. Swoopers should not swoop into traffic. I think they should be on a seperate pass, pull high, something. What dictates a swoop? 90d, 180d, 270+? I do not 270 but many people are quite proficient with it. But seperate landing areas will not always be feasible. What is the smallest DZ you have ever visited? Not all of them are 700 acres? But, I think you missed my point. I do believe there needs to be something...just not dictated by USPA. It is a DZ issue.
But, I did not get your response on the BSR Waiver issue? Care to provide feedback?
hukturn 0
BTW - can someone e-mail me and tell me how to quote in response? When I try, there is a bunch of garble in my text box.
rehmwa 2
USPA should publish a series of "best practices," then let individual DZs figure out which "best practice" works best at the local level.
Interesting, maybe a BSR that provides standard definitions of terms for clarity of communications and then offers, say, three different best practices to assess for the DZs to choose from or at least use as examples to determine their custom needs to address the issue?....... hmmmm.
But who'd come up with something like that? And if someone did, wouldn't people knee jerk and make false claims that the recommendation is simply banning swooping or something nonsensical like that? or even argue the futile position of inferred or false blame and appearance just because the recommendation was proposed with good intentions?
it'll never happen
...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants
I understand it very clear, however your fast canopy don't trump the slow one just because it's fast. If my bigass boat is setting up for the swoop lane and I'm lower then you, sorry about your luck I have the right of way fast or slow.
It's not about judging you at all, it's pointing out how your comments may or may not sound to others, to me it sounds as if "fucking bigass slo boat of 170/190 pilot was in my way and I couldn't swoop the way I wanted to, I had to out fly him to land first because HE got in MY way, and he should have known I was the hotshit local swoop god who always gose for the gates!"
And that seems to be standard thinking among those who think their the "real swoopers".
If you don't want to be lumped into that crowd, don't make hinting statements like that.
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