Freeflying makes you a better belly flyer?

[RB_Hammer 0]

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Did they say that to you or are you just assuming they think that way?

No, other than jokes, no one has said that. At least I think they were joking.

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Do you have another dz nearby that you can try-out?

Yes, there is a little place called Skydive Arizona that is only about 10 miles further to drive. Been there once, did 3 jumps, all solo. I know that I need to spend more time there so others know who I am and how I fly to get to jump with them, but I really prefer to give my money to my home DZ. As I said, it is much smaller and the vibe seems to me to be much more freindly.
I will go to SDAZ again, I know there are world class belly flyers there and hope to be able to jump with some at some point. The main thing that keeps me from there is from what I have seen, you have to be known and 'accepted'. I am guessing this is not different from other larger DZs and I figure that just spending some time there will resolve this.
To all that jump there, please do not take my comments as negative to SDAZ.

"I'm not lost. I don't know where I'm going, but there's no sense in being late."
Mathew Quigley

[rehmwa 2]

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then it's their fault for taking a too short delay

never 'count' on vertical separation to determine exit delays

Exactly, unless he is tracking up and down jump run, they should learn how to count and stop jumping the gun!!!!

of course, to Canuck's credit, the first jumper is still in a crappy situation when the creep jumps the gun and kills him

This weekend we had Extremely high uppers and low ground. I was freeflying and 2 other groups. We let new grad belly flyers out ahead of us even though they were opening around 5K and loaded the plan before us. They can climb over us to go first. We took the appropriate amount of delay, and there was plenty of good healthy horizontal separation.

Frankly, one of the newbies didn't take enough of a delay. I'm grateful he didn't exit behind me as he would have - despite his "Plan" to open at 4500/5000 ft.

The laws of physics even works in skydiving.

I'm so glad my DZ has jumpers that understand freefall drift.

The only people I remotely trust to open at the altitude they claim is the tandems.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

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I guess my point of trying to communicate with the other groups before the airplane even takes off was lost again.

You have a great point and sorry I didn't acknowledge that. At that time, the communication should include agreement on the delays and exit order - opening altitude is nice to know too, but only so I can assume they'll screw up and open lower anyway

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I should quit my freaking job and get a new one where I am not near a computer

you and me both. wanna go in and build a wind tunnel somewhere? maybe next to a climbing gym and a water ski park. You go marry a rich widow, and we'll use her money to finance it. I'll just be eye candy and technical support for the business.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Remster 30]

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The main thing that keeps me from there is from what I have seen, you have to be known and 'accepted'.

You need to come again to get a more informed opinion man...
Every weekend, there is free RW Load Organizing for all levels with Team Flail. Those are no pressure, fun orientated jumps.

If you want to get some good RW coaching, checkout www.divewerkz.org. They organize a Mentor Camp every month where they each take 3 people and do 4 way. They will split groups based on experience and what they are looking for. Oh, and its free too. You'll pay for video if you want it (which I strongly suggest), but the team does not charge anything.

Getting known and accepted is just a case of showing up, and being friendly. For a large DZ, its very friendly IMO.

At boogies, Airspeed and Divewerkz will typically also do Load Organizing.

I'm not gonna comment on the FF side of things as I am not so sure about what is offered, but Amy and others do Load Organizing too.

Beyound that, you can al;so get 1/1 coaching from any of the people I mentioned, tho that will probably be charged for.

Remster

[DougH 270]

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I guess my point of trying to communicate with the other groups before the airplane even takes off was lost again. I should quit my freaking job and get a new one where I am not near a computer.

I don't disagree for the sake of arguing. I just didn't see that as the main point that you were trying to get across when I first read what you wrote.

I agree, communication es muy importante.
I don't trust what people tell me for opening alt's any way, so while I communicate with other groups I rarely bother to ask. Most of the time they don't open where they said they would any way. I would rather spend my time making sure the group doing a three way behind me, with a combined 90 jumps, knows how many seconds to wait so they don't end up eating my canopy.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[RB_Hammer 0]

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Every weekend, there is free RW Load Organizing for all levels with Team Flail. Those are no pressure, fun orientated jumps.

Kind of interesting that you should say that. One of the first questions I asked manifest was about load organizing. The reply I got was there was no one there doing RW organizing that day, a Saturday.
Again, not trying to be negative.
I will go back again, I like the variety of AC, the facilities and frequency of loads. One of the reasons I only did 3 jumps the one time I have been there was because I am a slow packer and I like to pack my own.
Another factor in the lack of an RW organzer may have been the day I was there, there was a big bird man thing going on.

edited to correct bad quoting

"I'm not lost. I don't know where I'm going, but there's no sense in being late."
Mathew Quigley

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Well to get this thread back on track ... if someone wants to be a better belly flier, they need to dedicate jumps towards falling on their belly. If they want to be a better freeflier, they need to dedicate jumps towards freeflying under the pretence that they first need to know how to proficiently control their bodies on their bellies. And if someone wants to be a better canopy pilot they need to dedicate jumps towards canopy control and take themselves out of the confusion and chaos (sorry kitty) of the regular loads. CReW with the dawgs and/or one-on-one coaching with a knowledgeable canopy control coach are the way to go here. People are only hurting themselves (and possibly others) when they try to learn this sport through trial and error.

With all that said, you won't see me turning points with Airspeed (or even instructing as an AFF instructor) or you won't see me being invited on any bad ass freefly jumps cause I just have not been dedicating my jumps to freefall any more. I want to swoop and the only way I seem to have success in swooping on virtually all of my jumps is when I take myself off of regular loads and stick to low passes and/or high pulls.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[RB_Hammer 0]

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And if someone wants to be a better canopy pilot they need to dedicate jumps towards canopy control and take themselves out of the confusion and chaos (sorry kitty) of the regular loads.

When you say you need a dedicated jump for canopy skills are you saying this because you want to be the only one, or at least one of the few, in the air when you are working on these skills? I try to do small drills on my risers and stuff like quickly reversing a toggle turn on almost each canopy flight I have. I should qualify this by saying my head is always on the swivel making sure no one else is near. Until the fall, we have nothing but 182 and 206 loads so there are usually only 4 or possibly 5 canopies in the air at any one time. Most times, I am last down because of the size of mine.

"I'm not lost. I don't know where I'm going, but there's no sense in being late."
Mathew Quigley

[CanuckInUSA 0]

If you're at a small Cessna DZ it is not as critical to be on a hop n' pop load since at worse you only have 5 other canopies in the air (unlike being at an Otter DZ with 21-22 other canopies sharing the sky).

The important thing is to have specific canopy control goals to accomplish on each jump to help you progress as a canopy pilot and hopefully you also have access to more experienced people who can help you plan out these canopy control goals as well as observe you in flight and observe your landings. Read "Parachute and it's pilot" but also seek out canopy control coaching.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[mnskydiver688 0]

One thing that I really found helpful was going to boogies. I am lucky at my DZ because up jumpers will make jumps with me. Since we are a 182 DZ 4 ways are the end of the line. However I have gone to a couple boogies and was able to get on some bigger ways. Traveling really ramps up your learning curve because you are forced to jump with new people and try new things. Be somewhat aggressive. Haha on the humorous side when you make those new jumps in bigger formations don't worry about being the best just worry about being the worst. As long as your better than the worst guy on the jump people will keep jumping with you. Your not that guy. Haha that might have been inappropriate but funny nonetheless.

Sky Canyon Wingsuiters

[popsjumper 2]

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This will probably get me flamed, but I decided I want to get a coach rating so I can jump with students that do nothing but belly fly. I have no desire to make money as a coach but want to get students in the air with someone else as I know that this really helps you get better much faster.

Holy bejeezuz and pass the peas. If somebody flames you for that, tell them to kiss off...with emphasis!

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[NWFlyer 2]

My first time at Eloy was a bit intimidating; it was in the beginning of the off-season, during the week. Pretty much the only folks there were doing team training. I didn't get a feeling of it being at all warm and friendly, even though manifest did help connect me with someone to do a couple of two-ways.

I've since been back twice for the holiday boogie (which is a very different experience than even a normal weekend there) and once for the easter boogie (which locals said was small enough that it wasn't that different from the other weekends). The first time at the holiday boogie I hung around with mostly people I already knew. By the second time I started to connect with a few locals, and now I will see a number of familiar faces when I'm there.

But you also sound very interested in remaining connected to your home DZ, too, and that's great. I found, though, that I grew most as a skydiver when I started to branch out from my home DZ and jumping with lots of different people. Every different perspective has helped me to learn something. Everyone I've jumped with has taught me something (sometimes what NOT to do). I've learned a lot from many great LOs. Branching out of the comfort zone and old habits of home really helped me do all that.

I still suck, but I know a lot more people who will let me suck in the sky with them now.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[stayhigh 2]

No..
and if you wanna become Coach rated or AFFI, then stick to belly jumps for another 489 jumps.. and when you get your rating and all other BS, then proceed to Freeflying and other crap.

Bernie Sanders for President 2016

[peckerhead 0]

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What is everyone's opinions on this?

First of all stop calling it "belly flying"

[DougH 270]

Until he knocks this solo shit off belly flying is all it is.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[feuergnom 29]

most of the freefliers i know are really crappy on their bellies. if you take a chance and invite them for some belly-fun they are constantly backsliding and afterwards they complain that we can't hold the place
some of these guys can't even fly a decent track

maybe i'm old fashioned but i think good old rw is the base to develop other styles. at least you lern how to behave in the close proximity to others

The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

[RB_Hammer 0]

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First of all stop calling it "belly flying"

What is a better term?

"I'm not lost. I don't know where I'm going, but there's no sense in being late."
Mathew Quigley

[stayhigh 2]

that is right,, we don't track,, we atmo...
..
...
jokes aside, freeflying and tracking are whole diffrent game...

ability to good track comes from natural body type(like me), skills are critical but in the END it is all body type.. you can have the perfect body position but if you are short and fat than YOU will sink lower than me, and everyone is shorter and fatter than me......

Bernie Sanders for President 2016

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Of course tracking is made easier if you are tall and lanky versus short and fat. But if someone wants to become a good tracker, they need to practice tracking. Not belly fly or freefly. Anyone up for a tracking dive?

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[DougH 270]

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Anyone up for a tracking dive?

Which type? A flocking tracking dive, or a max track your ass of tracking dive.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[pchapman 279]

I think one has to look more closely at how many jumps are involved when trading off belly vs freefly jumps.

Let's say that everyone starts out with 50 jumps (or whatever) to learn the skydiving basics, and then specializes into free or belly.

Perhaps most will likely agree that doing 500 belly dives (after the skydiving basics) will then make one a better belly diver than doing 250 belly and 250 freefly. There's just too much belly learning that is missed by doing all that freefly instead, even if it can teach some useful things about freefall control in general.

If someone disagrees with the above, perhaps it will relate to particular skills. The 500 guy may be better at belly than the 250+250 guy, when it comes to understanding how to launch a specific formation from a specific aircraft. But what about having to do a long, steep dive down to a bigway formation base? I don't have the experience to answer that one. Will the 500 belly guy do better, or the 250+250 guy, if the freefly aspect provides a totally different but useful freefall method and set of skills for accomplising the task?

Moving on:

While it is perhaps less of a sure bet, I'd guess that for smaller numbers of jumps, the same relationship will exist as for 500 beating 250+250. That is, 100 belly will be better for belly than 50 belly plus 50 free.

But I'll hypothesize that maybe if there are plenty of "primary discipline" jumps, then a smaller number of "secondary discipline" jumps may actually improve the primary discipline skills (for the same number of total jumps).

So now compare the person who does 500 belly, vs. someone who does 450 belly and 50 freefly.

The latter person won't have lost that much in belly learning, since after 450 belly, he won't be way behind on belly skills if he misses 50 more. But having just 50 freefly jumps may be enough to give the jumper some valuable additional freefall control concepts to work with, that'll make him better at belly than the other guy who never tried freefly.

Whether you agree or not, this provides a more specific hypothesis to consider.

[dharma1976 0]

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nope... belly flying makes you a better belly flyer.

Does my belly flying me make me a better belly flier?

I have more high pulls than I do strict belly jumps

I am starting to learn belly point names though and actually went out and did four way a few weekends ago

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[rehmwa 2]

One thing is definite

A skydiver that doesn't think they will learn anything useful to apply to another discipline......won't

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[pilotdave 0]

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One thing is definite

A skydiver that doesn't think they will learn anything useful to apply to another discipline......won't

I don't agree. Just as an example, I think belly flying helped my freeflying... and I didn't think I would learn anything useful to apply to sitflying.

Ok, lemme just say that I'm NOT a freeflyer. I think I may have done 3, 4 tops, sitfly jumps over the last year. I can't have more than 50 total sitfly jumps, almost all solo, almost all before I had 200 jumps. And 50 is probably pushing it.

I had about 700 jumps last year when a freefly coach came to the DZ. It had probably been at least a year since my last attempt at sitflying. So I decided to try one with the coach. I'm definitely no expert, but I was shocked out how much better I did than the last time I tried it. Felt like I was in so much more control. So I definitely think that belly flying helped my freeflying.

But I think the real truth was what someone posted above... skydiving makes you a better skydiver. It's going to be easier to learn new things when you have more experience, unless muscle memory makes it hard to change.

Dave

[jheadley 0]

From what I've seen, people who make their first 200 jumps or so on their belly (doing RW), and then the next 200 freeflying, are actually better freeflyers than someone who has only done straight freeflying. The reason being (I'm sure I'll get flamed for this), is that not just "belly flying" but RW teaches one from the start to plan a dive, dive the plan, and have an actual goal to try to accomplish. A freefly dirt-dive typically is something like this "ok we'll launch a train and then we'll fly around sort of near each other, and break at 5". That's a little over-generalized but you get what I mean. If someone can learn the basics of RW, especially get into the RW mindset of trying to actually improve your skill, and then they translate that to freeflying, they'll stop freeflailing and truly start to freefly.