DeLand bans turns over 180

[Rdutch 0]

Yesterday when I got to the dropzone there was signs all over stating MANDATORY landing rules, same old stuff: land in the same direction as everyone else, land into the wind ect, follow the first person down's direction ect, then the shocker "Turns over 180* are prohibited!" Looks like if I want to make a fun jump I'll have to drive to Zhills.

There has been a big push to try and get everyone to land in the same direction at DeLand, many people (Including members of Majik) have suggested following SD Arizona with the landing area runway approach, where the landing area is one direction only, but the "highly experienced" people in charge cant land crosswind so that idea was shot down.

The letter that was posted at the dz, didnt explain everything, like hop n pops ect. Im curious how they are going to try and talk Shannon Pilcher, Ian Bobo or Jay Moledzki into only doing 180's when they land. Rumor was there is supposed to be a designated area for people doing bigger turns, and since the person in charge of the decision to ban big turns lands in the main landing area I doubt that it will be right in front of the dz. I guess teams will be late making their back to backs, having to run from the student field to the hanger and back to the plane.

Im sure a lot of details are left out, but the note was posted without explanation.

Banning 270*s I.M.O is a stupid idea, whats next, if a freefly group and a belly group are close on opening are they going to ban freeflying? Or if a wingsuit gets a good spot and flys himself into an off field landing are they going to ban wingsuits. Coming soon, dropzones across the country close down to open much safer golf driving range's.

Ray
Small and fast what every girl dreams of!

[ltdiver 3]

Don't know about DeLand, but at Perris (for our boogie this past week) they invoked the 'no turns over 90' in the main landing area rule. And for the first time in a long time there were no landing incidents at all with the large population of visitors.

If anyone wanted to do more aggressive landings, they landed by the swoop pond and were trucked back quickly. They got to the packing area before those in the main landing area crossed the runway!

The school, and even the PD Factory Team complied. It worked out just fine and everyone landed well. These experienced pilots didn't -need- a more aggressive turn to land (and even swoop) the grass. They had the experience to land with style, even if it wasn't as fast as they were used to.
Oh, and one other thing that I observed. After people landed they got over to the edge of the grass to tend to their canopy. It opened up a wide 'runway' for those of us landing behind them. No dodging people stowing brakes in the middle of the grass. Really nice (and considerate).

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[Derekbox 0]

In a region with a abundance of dropzones I am curious to see how this turns out.

My question, is why is a 180 allowed but a 270 is not. If its going to be all or nothing, then shouldnt it be a standard left hand pattern. I personally consider 270s much safer than a 180 as far as traffic and situational awareness.

to be continued....

[Rdutch 0]

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Don't know about DeLand, but at Perris (for our boogie this past week) they invoked the 'no turns over 90' in the main landing area rule. And for the first time in a long time there were no landing incidents at all with the large population of visitors.

If anyone wanted to do more aggressive landings, they landed by the swoop pond and were trucked back quickly. They got to the packing area before those in the main landing area crossed the runway!

The school, and even the PD Factory Team complied. It worked out just fine and everyone landed well. These experienced pilots didn't -need- a more aggressive turn to land (and even swoop) the grass. They had the experience to land with style, even if it wasn't as fast as they were used to.
Oh, and one other thing that I observed. After people landed they got over to the edge of the grass to tend to their canopy. It opened up a wide 'runway' for those of us landing behind them. No dodging people stowing brakes in the middle of the grass. Really nice (and considerate).

ltdiver

That would definitely work in Perris, DeLand has a different set up that Perris, if you want to do back to backs in DeLand you basically have to land as close to the hanger as possible, and run to the hanger and get your gear on, they dont like you being late for a plane load, and dont like the plane waiting. Also getting a truck to pick you up in DeLand after every load wont be happening often. In perris they have a lot more staff available.

Did the PD Factory Team do 90* landings? or land at the pond? If I jumped in Perris and the truck would pick me up to make my next load Id swoop the pond every jump.

I do think there is a solution to all of this, but it isnt simple, I think it will take effort from all sides, and be a big change to everyone. everyone wants to land right in front of the DZ for various reasons so to make the swoopers have to land far away will inconvenience them, Or to make the old school skydivers land far off has the same effect. At Dropzones like Perris and AZ they have the availability to have seperate landing area's.

The only good excuse that you could use in DeLand to want to land in front is if you are trying to do a back to back, then there isnt any other option.

But most of all I think BANNING something isnt the solution. OF course there is a time and place for everything, if I was doing a 100way, id damn sure land straight in, and probaly on the other side of the dropzone. But just for example sake, if my team is getting out on our own pass and we are the only ones landing, we have a set landing order within the team, where is the reason for a 180 only rule?

Ray
Small and fast what every girl dreams of!

[ltdiver 3]

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Did the PD Factory Team do 90* landings? or land at the pond?

Their first jump (that I observed yesterday) they did their normal team-style landing on the grass. Then they were called to manifest. All the other jumps they did they landed on the grass (still as a team) but with only 90's. I was impressed. They didn't lose any style points with doing a less aggressive landing. In fact, it proved to those of us watching that their canopies could (and did) land well at slower speeds as well as their normal swooping speed. They are awesome pilots who -don't- have to rely on speed to land well.

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But just for example sake, if my team is getting out on our own pass and we are the only ones landing, we have a set landing order within the team, where is the reason for a 180 only rule?

Perris was doing parallel jump runs on almost every load yesterday, so even the teams exiting at 10,500' had to comply. IMO, if there was only one plane in the sky -and- you were the only team in the air from a lower altitude pass, you could do a more than 180 for landing if your team agreed. However, we have to realize that newbies are watching and need to know the difference. THEY see a more aggressive turn and don't realize the difference (the lower altitude launch) unless time is taken to educate. Are we willing to add that to all our students AND visitors? Perris gets ALOT of visitors. I'm sure that DeLand does as well.

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[MB38 0]

I was pretty impressed by how well traffic regulated itself today. As of when I left, I'd say 90% of the >90 traffic landed over by the pond. I didn't hear any complaints, particularly when they were already back packing by the time the rest of us waddled back.

That said, some people did 180s into the grass strip [I don't know if anybody had a word with them... didn't pay that much attention] and a few others did their >90s a little close to the grass strip... close enough that I wondered what the hell they were thinking.

Either way, it seems to have worked well for the boogie. I feel as though a more elegant solution is possible in the long run, though.

I really don't know what I'm talking about.

[jojo69 0]

I jump at DeLand. The loss of B.O.B. hurt my heart and I understand why his home DZ would want to take a stand against a problem that is seen as the cause of his death.

I fly one of the large boats that lands last. I land in the student area almost every time. I enjoy the large space and the ride back is always fun with the students. I do not swoop but I do enjoy watching others do it.

DeLand is well know as a training DZ for teams with multiple jumps daily. The teams get out at 10,500 and land well before the rest of us. What discussions have the teams had with the DZ management? Has your team discussed this with the other teams? Does this effect your teams program or does it only effect you "FUN"?

I would hate to see you leave because you feel your skydive is not fun and I would hate to see others leave because they refuse to follow the decision of the DZ management. However, I will support the DZ management in their decision to help everyone stay safe.

[Meux 0]

This isn't a bad thing.

My biggest concern with the big DZs (little ones too) is getting run over by some hot rod who thought he knew where everyone was at and ends up killing one or both of us.

Next on the list is any skydiver who isn't actively clearing their flight path. Can't count the times someone has violated my comfort zone with no apparent recognition of my presence. Who knows, maybe I've done the same thing, but it is so much easier to clear from straight and level than big turns.

When wingsuit guys start killing each other, they too will face restrictions.

Dead Skydivers are bad for business.

I love Deland and can't wait to get back there.

[billvon 3,118]

>Im curious how they are going to try and talk Shannon Pilcher, Ian
>Bobo or Jay Moledzki into only doing 180's when they land.

It has been my experience that the better professional skydivers have no problems landing in a standard pattern, and indeed follow such rules to set a good example.

>Rumor was there is supposed to be a designated area for people doing
>bigger turns, and since the person in charge of the decision to ban big
>turns lands in the main landing area I doubt that it will be right in front
>of the dz. I guess teams will be late making their back to backs, having
>to run from the student field to the hanger and back to the plane.

Or perhaps teams will prefer to fly standard patterns and land closer. Up to them.

>Banning 270*s I.M.O is a stupid idea, whats next, if a freefly group and
>a belly group are close on opening are they going to ban freeflying?

If freeflyers opened too close to RWers regularly, and refused to do anything about it, and brushed off suggestions with "hey, I'll see them in freefall and just go right past em and pull under them, no problem" and caused a few fatalities doing that - then yes, I could see that. Most freeflyers I know are far more responsible than that, though, so it's usually not a big issue.

>That would definitely work in Perris, DeLand has a different set up that
>Perris, if you want to do back to backs in DeLand you basically have to
>land as close to the hanger as possible . . .

Same thing in Perris. The main landing area is the closest area to the packing area. This weekend, teams chose where they wanted to land - and teams who wanted to do back to backs landed via a standard pattern in the main area. It's all in what your goals are. If you want to swoop, the pond is available. If you want to do back to backs, the main landing area is available. Having the choice is a good thing (IMO.)

>Also getting a truck to pick you up in DeLand after every load wont be
>happening often. In perris they have a lot more staff available.

At Perris people at the swoop area don't usually get picked up. They just have a slightly longer walk.

>Did the PD Factory Team do 90* landings? or land at the pond?

Yes.

>If I
>jumped in Perris and the truck would pick me up to make my next
>load Id swoop the pond every jump.

Generally they won't. But if you want to land even further out, generally they will send a truck.

>But most of all I think BANNING something isnt the solution.

I agree. Having options is good - which is why we proposed the BSR change (now the pledge change.)

>But just for example sake, if my team is getting out on our own pass
>and we are the only ones landing, we have a set landing order within
>the team, where is the reason for a 180 only rule?

If everyone on your team is doing a 270 - AND there's never another load in the air - then there's no safety-related reason to not do them in the main area. But I suspect the issue that would arise is that Joe Lowtime Swooper would see you, do the same, and then bitch to high heaven when he was reprimanded for doing that in the pattern. After a few hundred repeats of such a scenario, I could see a DZO saying "fuck it, it's not worth the grief. No one does 270's."

Edited to add - this was one of the first boogie events at Perris in a while with no landing area incidents (collisions/close calls) - the 90-only in the main area seemed to make a big difference. I hope we continue something like this on the more crowded days (boogies/weekends.)

[skyninja 0]

What an obviously unfair imposition! How dare they.

Why don't you just play 'chicken' on the railroad tracks? It would be a cheaper way to toy with death, I'm sure.

CWR #2 - "You SAID collision!"

[diablopilot 2]

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>Im curious how they are going to try and talk Shannon Pilcher, Ian
>Bobo or Jay Moledzki into only doing 180's when they land.

It has been my experience that the better professional skydivers have no problems landing in a standard pattern, and indeed follow such rules to set a good example.

You do realize they are 3 of 5 members of a high performance canopy team, and DeLand has traditionally been their training facility?

For DeLand to jump on a knee jerk bandwagon, without offering any compromise or alternative plan is disappointing.

And any plan that allows for 180's in a "standard" pattern is hypocritical at best.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[billvon 3,118]

>You do realize they are 3 of 5 members of a high performance
>canopy team, and DeLand has traditionally been their training facility?

Yes. From the original post, it sounds like they will have no problems either landing in the main area (to do back to backs) or doing high performance landings; they just can't do them both at the same time.

>And any plan that allows for 180's in a "standard" pattern is hypocritical at best.

I bet if you called them on it they'd go to 90's only.

[diablopilot 2]

There as of yet seems to be no plan what so ever to accomodate better than 180 degree turns at DeLand.

Well have to wait and see what comes to light.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[stratostar 5]

(not in reply to JP, just a reply)

Maybe Mr. Hallett is just sick and tired of the stupid human tricks and having to clean up the dead and mangaled bodies off HIS dz.

Maybe he is tired of of hearing people from town who stop in to eat lunch on the porch gasp and cringe everytime some super swooper pulls one of those buzz the wuffos on the top deck and miss them by inches so I can land super close and not have to walk or run to meet a plane swoops.

Maybe he is sick and tired of students and other "normal" pilots getting the shit freaked out of them in the main landing area and then coming into the office to bitch about the large number of dumbass hotshots who think their special because their on a team and think they have a right to do as they please.

Maybe Bob Hallett is just a prick and don't like you guys or like your kind anymore.

Maybe if you ask him about it he'll tell you to fuck off and go build your dz and do as you please. Bottom line is it is his playground and his rules to set as HE pleases to do, if you don't like, don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out!

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[diablopilot 2]

Maybe his DZ has had alot of business and success in the past few years because of some of those hook turning jumpers attracting customers.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[hjumper33 0]

Who is the person who decided that a 180 is so much safer than a 270? It scared the hell out of me doing 180s in a crowded pattern because at some point in time you are flying straight at people, and if anyone is lower and behind you, theres no chance of seeing them without taking your eyes off the people you are flying directly at. My dz has a swoop lane right next the the main landing area, but very obviously marked (gravel road) and I think its great, as long as new jumpers are made aware of the boundary and what it means.

[stratostar 5]

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Maybe his DZ has had alot of business and success in the past few years because of some of those hook turning jumpers attracting customers.

And now maybe they are driving away customers! After all Deland has had a reputation for a number of years now as the home of the stuck up prick skygod teams who treat people like shit and make the place a drag to be around, unless your one of those pricks too. Other then the Euro crowd who really don't know any better, that most places in US aren't full of those type of pricks.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[diablopilot 2]

Nice attitude.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[stratostar 5]

Yea I know those guy's attitude suck, that's why a lot of jumpers don't care to go there, myself I find kind of funny and don't let it bug me, I just give them the evil eye they give, back and make sure I give a big loud YAHOO on take off too just to piss them off and make fun of their invisiable grip taking on the ride up, the students all crack up and they just give more of the same evil eye they shoot every one as they prance around the dz. In fact I think it is so goddam funny I make a point of packing in the creeper area they don't ever use because they all have their own hangers now, but they still get piss off a non team weenie is in their turf, it's a lot of fun to watch them all walk by or stand in their hangers giving the evil eye to me, so I just pack and smile back, hell if I'm in a good mood I might even wave at um.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[AFFI 0]

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Nice attitude.

Look who is calling the bible black.

Just to be fair, ****** is not the only one that offers opinionated dissertations.

Not pointing fingers at anyone, if more individuals would just sit back and read what they are writing and ask thenselves how others might translate what they are reading.
There is a difference between offering an opinion tactfully and self righteous indignation.
I know I am guilty of both, but it is times like this that remind me to think before I hit the send button...

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[Derekbox 0]

As much as I love to throw names out, Hallet around the DZ is typically known to be the good guy. Its Mr Johnston who runs the day to day operations. I do not know who implemented the rule, but I would imagine he was the driving force. He is always known to police the landing area. Just throwing that out there.

I think it should be mentioned too that many of the teams who tear through the jumps, back to back often do 180s. I dont remember who, but it was a West coast jumper who made that observation, which I tend to see at Deland too.

If drastic measures of safety are to be taken in the name of traffic safety, why not ban all hook turns?

If my home DZ were to outright ban 180s+ without giving me a convenient alternative (easily accesable but seperate landing areas or hook turns ok when no traffic present: hop and pops) then I will take my business to another dropzone where I can pursue my passion. Thats the bottom line.

If Deland allows hooking into the main landing area on hop and pops I will still jump there, thats all I really do any more.

[klingeme 1]

The CPC meets next year in Deland should be interesting.

Mark Klingelhoefer

[KathleenL 0]

Hey guys, I just came back from the Perris boogie and had no problem landing there. Additionally, I don't have a problem with landing at my home DZ or any of the DZ's I visit. The reason is that at 37 jumps I took Scott Miller's canopy course. He instructed my class (all girls by the way) in canopy control, evasive manuvers and landing pattern. Because of that class I put as much attention into my landing pattern as I do my RW freefall. I speak to everyone on my load to find out what they are going to do and I let them know what I am going to do.

I actually had some freeflyers on one of my loads in Perris complain because our RW 6 way wanted to break and track off at 5,000. They started in on us about not pulling high. There were three of us with 100 or less jumps on this formation. I told them that we were going to track for a count of 10 and clear and pull. Again I got "don't pull above 3,000". I informed them all that we had three low time jumpers and that once we tracked away they would pull. They then said that they would rather us pull higher to have time to react if something happened to our canopy. I am happy to report that my new freeflyer friends were then cooperative, gave us good seperation on jump run and kept an extra eagle eye out for us girls. Thanks to all the guys on our load.
I mean really we can not be expected to perform at the same experience level as people with 1500 jumps.
We in turn flew in breaks for awhile to let them get to the ground first to do their swooping by the pond and proceeded with the standard landing pattern in the student area. So all that said. Communitcation and education IMO are the key.

[skymama 37]

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Who is the person who decided that a 180 is so much safer than a 270? It scared the hell out of me doing 180s in a crowded pattern because at some point in time you are flying straight at people, and if anyone is lower and behind you, theres no chance of seeing them without taking your eyes off the people you are flying directly at.

So, are you saying you should still be allowed to do a 270 in a crowded pattern?

She is Da Man, and you better not mess with Da Man,
because she will lay some keepdown on you faster than, well, really fast. ~Billvon

[ianmdrennan 2]

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So, are you saying you should still be allowed to do a 270 in a crowded pattern?

No, they're saying that 180's shouldn't be allowed either. It makes no sense at all.

Blues!
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team