crash landings, broken ankles & 3 trips to the hospital

[Levin 0]

I've been meaning to post this for some time.

I've broken both of my ankles on 2 occasions the exact same way while swooping. The 1st incident was at Skydive Dallas in Oct 2001 on an Alpha84 and the 2nd on a FX74 at Skydive East Texas on February 28, 2004.

On both occasions as I was planing out after my turn and I got to relaxed or lazy with initiating toggle imput and allowed myself to impact slightly on my butt. The angle of impact was not steep. I just came in a couple of inches low each time. With the forward speed my canopy was still flying. I tried to run the landings out while still going approximately 15 miles an hour. I nor anyone else can run that fast. With a small canopy, harness imput while attempting to run that fast with the canopy still flying will turn the canopy in the direction that you step. On each incident I started to run with my left leg. On the first incident my canopy turned to the left and I had to keep running with it. I had to turn my right foot slightly to stay up and when I did I got slammed. On the second incident I went down after the first step. The first incident broke my talus bone. The second incident broke my fibia at the ankle. There is a big difference in these two breaks. The broken talus (load bearing) was a horrible experience. It hurt. I'm a morning pisser. When I would try and get up in the morning and put my foot down the blood rushing into it felt like someone had my ankle in a vice and was drilling a hole in it. I could only take it for a few seconds. It took me 20 minutes each morning to get out of bed putting my foot on the ground and then picking it back up on the bed. I was in a cast and walking boot and on crutches for almost 13 weeks. It was 17 weeks before I started jumping again. The 2nd break, fibia (support) was no big deal at all. It never hurt. I was off the crutches in 2 weeks. I had the cast off in 6 weks and was jumping 2 weeks later (of course I made a cast jump). I think the most interesting factor in these two breaks was the shoes I was wearing. When I broke my talus bone I was wearing tennis shoes. When I broke my fibia I was wearing high top sketchers. The fibia broke even with the top of my boots. I highly recommend anyone that performs swoop landings to wear high top boots of some sort. Protect your feet and ankles. When swooping that's what's taking the abuse. Trust me when I say you don't want to break your ankles. In some cases they never heal back the same. Such as my right ankle with the broken talus bone. It's been 3 years and it is still 1 1/2 times the size of my left ankle. For me swooping is worth the risk. But it's never worth the risk when it's preventable.

A few weeks ago at Skydive Houston I was trying to make it back from a long spot and decided to make a downwinder to save myself some of the walking distance back. Winds were blowing about 5-6mph. I saw a ditch in front of me that I thought would be fun to swoop down. To build up a little extra speed I pulled down double fronts and let them right back up. As I was going down the ditch I saw some high grass coming up. I put my foot out and angled it to push the grass down so that I didn't trip thru it. Turned out the high grass was covering a slab of concrete that served as either a driveway of sorts or as a drainage ditch. I impacted the concrete on the bottom of my foot just above the heel going about 40mph. I bounced off the impact and landed about 30 feet in front of me. I felt the impact all the way up in my knee. I felt for sure that I atleast cracked something. Fortunately all I did was compress the joint. Had the high grass turned my foot I would have most certainly broken it again. The impact did leave a huge bruise on the side of my ankle that didn't go away for a couple of weeks. Moral of the story is know your landing area. A big surprise followed by instant pain sucks.

There is video from my view of the concrete strike at www.flyingarab.com. Click video then funjumps. The video is titled Levin's broken foot. But I didn't break it. Tarek hasn't changed the name.

edit: misspelled the subject line

[raymod2 1]

Was it your fibula or tibia that you broke? The tibia is the bigger one on the inside (your shinbone - the one you bang on furniture).

[tigra 0]

My guess is he meant FIBULA since it isn't a major weight bearing bone, so he'd probably be able to walk on it a little quicker if that's all he broke, assuming there was no soft tissue damage. But, good question..........

[Levin 0]

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Was it your fibula or tibia that you broke?

It was my fibula. I think at some point I've misspelled every word I've ever typed. Before I made my cast jump the bone doctor warned me that if I landed on my cast and went to fall forward, the top of the cast just below my knee would break my tibia at that point. Just the thought of that sounds crazy painful. I held my cast behind me and landed on my good foot and put my arms forward to catch my fall. worked great.

[GeordieSkydiver 0]

Dude that video looks painful.

The break your Dr told you about is a classic skiing injury, it's called a 'boot top break' for obvious reasons.

A guy I work with did that injury skiing in Canada. He broke both Tib and Fib and had to have a metal rod hammered down inbetween the bones, from up near his knee. Then bolted onto the bone.

You DO-NOT want an injury like that.

Lee _______________________________

In a world full of people, only some want to fly, is that not crazy?
http://www.ukskydiver.co.uk

[Levin 0]

yah i definitely have had my fill of injuries, but unfortunately i never seem to learn my lesson. i posted all that and the video in hopes that maybe someone will learn something from it. broken bones definitely suck.

my bone doctor told me that a "boot top break" was a common football injury. he said often football players tape it up and keep playing on it. i don't see how. i didn't hurt but i definitely couldn't walk on it. much less play football.

another injury for ya. back in june is was doing a 2-way sit and i didn't come to a complete stop before i took a dock on the other jumpers foot. my forward movement was almost completely stopped but not quit. the other jumper weighs 180lbs + gear. i weigh 130. when i took the dock i went under him and pulled him over me into my burble. all 200lbs of him came crashing down on my left shoulder. the crash knocked 3 bone shards off my shoulder. one of them is 4mm long. i keep putting of the surgery to suck them out. while i've been putting the surgery off, use of my arm and shoulder has worked those bone shards into my socket. 95% of the time i don't have any problems with that injury. but the other 5% of the time it ranges from pain to paralysis. not the loss of feeling type of paralysis, but the kind where my arm doesn't work. sometimes i can't pick up my rig with my left arm. the worst thing for it seems to be sitting on the co-pilot's side of the otter and resting my arm on the rig of the person next to me. that will mess it up for a good bit of the day. i have surgery scheduled for it again this dec. 15th (?) i think. as it gets closer i'm already thinking about postponing it till january. if i wait till january that will give me an excuse not to jump in the worst part of winter when it's cold and miserable. i've definitely learned my lesson from that injury. always come to a complete stop before taking a dock.

[billvon 3,118]

> For me swooping is worth the risk. But it's never worth the risk when
> it's preventable.

That injury was completely preventable. You don't have to stop swooping, you just have to make different decisions. There's a lot more to swooping safely than pulling down a toggle or riser at a given height, and you have to know all those things before swooping becomes even moderately safe.

You seem to have come to some very strange conclusions in this post. Your primary conclusion on the first incident seems to be:

"Protect your feet and ankles."

That's like saying that you should wear a helmet when driving drunk in a car with bad brakes to avoid injuries. It makes a lot more sense to deal with the brake and alcohol problems, rather than just try to protect your head (or feet, in your case) from the impact that results. To go point by point for both incidents:

>On both occasions as I was planing out after my turn and I got to
> relaxed or lazy with initiating toggle imput . . .

If you get lazy while swooping high performance canopies YOU WILL DIE. There's no other way to say it. You have to give each landing 100% of your attention. If you can't do that - upsize. You can still swoop a 120, and a lapse of attention, while painful, will be less likely to be fatal.

>I tried to run the landings out while still going approximately 15
>miles an hour. I nor anyone else can run that fast.

No, but you can slide that fast. Get your feet down (while still flying the canopy) and start taking some weight on your feet. That will let you slow down to 10mph, and then you can run it out.

>With a small canopy, harness imput while attempting to run that fast
>with the canopy still flying will turn the canopy in the direction that
>you step.

I jump a 108 loaded 2 to 1. I can run with no problem while still flying the canopy; the trick is to keep flying the canopy. Use the brakes to counteract the harness turns caused by running.

>On each incident I started to run with my left leg. On the first
> incident my canopy turned to the left and I had to keep running
>with it.

You are turning because you're probably not countering the harness turn and/or you're sticking your arm out in anticipation of a fall on that side. Don't stop flying the canopy until it collapses on the ground. Learn flare turns; they will give you the control to bring the canopy back over your head and prevent having to run in odd directions. Learn to slide; in a good slide you don't turn the canopy with your legs.

>Protect your feet and ankles. When swooping that's what's taking the abuse.

Your ankles are weak; you shouldn't be taking impacts with them. Take the abuse on your thighs and calves if you need to at all, via a modified (sliding) PLF; if you do need to take bad landings more than once every 100 jumps or so, upsize until you can land a canopy more reliably. An FX74 is not the canopy to learn swooping basics on (even if you're loading it at only 2 to 1.)

>(of course I made a cast jump).

That simply doesn't jibe with "But it's never worth the risk when it's preventable." Decide whether it's acceptable to take unneccesary risks BEFORE they put you in the hospital (or worse.)

>A few weeks ago at Skydive Houston I was trying to make it back
> from a long spot and decided to make a downwinder to save myself
> some of the walking distance back. . . . Moral of the story is know
> your landing area.

That's just one of them. Others are:

-Don't land downwind
-Don't swoop when conditions aren't perfect
-Land safe, not close
-Plan ahead to avoid obstacles
-Learn to flare turn for obstacle avoidance

[apley 0]

echoing a few of my thoughts... well said, bill

[Levin 0]

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That injury was completely preventable. You don't have to stop swooping, you just have to make different decisions.

the preventable injury i was refering to was the broken talus bone which really sucked. after breaking my fibula i realized that the talus bone was copletely preventable by wearing high top boots.

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There's a lot more to swooping safely than pulling down a toggle or riser at a given height, and you have to know all those things before swooping becomes even moderately safe.

absolutely! for example when swooping in high winds you have to let off the risers a little higher because the wind pushing on the top of your canopy wants to keep you in a dive.

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You seem to have come to some very strange conclusions in this post. Your primary conclusion on the first incident seems to be:

ocassionally i word some of my post like that to see if i can bait somebody into a debate. i like to debate. especially the pick your post apart types.

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That's like saying that you should wear a helmet when driving drunk in a car with bad brakes to avoid injuries. It makes a lot more sense to deal with the brake and alcohol problems, rather than just try to protect your head (or feet, in your case) from the impact that results.

you have a good point but on the other hand you should not be pushing the limits in a car. especially while drunk.

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If you get lazy while swooping high performance canopies YOU WILL DIE. There's no other way to say it.

i've only got lazy twice in the past almost 1000 jumps and it hurt both times, but i didn't die.

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If you can't do that - upsize. You can still swoop a 120, and a lapse of attention, while painful, will be less likely to be fatal.

i have a spectre120 that i load at 1.18 according to the dropzone.com wingload calculator. i can swoop the spectre about 10 - 15 yards but beyond that i didn't think it was really possible. but 3 jumps ago we broke a downplane off at 80' and i had a killer swoop off of it. in that case i disagree with your point that a bigger canopy means a lesser injury. had i been lazy on the flair coming out of that downplane i don't think it would have hurt any less than a botched swoop on the alpha84 that i use to jump.

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No, but you can slide that fast. Get your feet down (while still flying the canopy) and start taking some weight on your feet. That will let you slow down to 10mph, and then you can run it out.

but that's assuming the grass is mowed. if the grass is more than 3 inches high then it may not be possible to to do a 15mph standing up double feet slide. what if you have to land on concrete. unless you are jumping in cowboy boots, the concrete will grip your shoes and slam you on your face if you attempt to do a 15mph standing up double feet slide. i know cowbot boots will work in that scenario. i made my first 40 jumps in them.

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I jump a 108 loaded 2 to 1. I can run with no problem while still flying the canopy; the trick is to keep flying the canopy. Use the brakes to counteract the harness turns caused by running.

i'll keep that counteracting brake tip in mind. i don't have alot of experience with having to counteract harness turns while running. with the exception of the 2 incidents listed above i am always able to bring my FX close enough to a complete stop that i usually never heave to take more than 3 steps before i pull the canopy down in front of me. the alpha i use to jump a few years ago was a different story. i use to have to run my ass off at then end of those landings.

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You are turning because you're probably not countering the harness turn and/or you're sticking your arm out in anticipation of a fall on that side. Don't stop flying the canopy until it collapses on the ground.

on the two incidents i listed above i turned because i tried to run a landing out while going about 15mph. i didn't allow myself the luxury of putting an arm out to break my fall. hence why i said i got slammed. On just about every landing i've made with my FX, I come to a complete stop and it is hovering motionless over my head and i pull it down in front of me.

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Learn flare turns; they will give you the control to bring the canopy back over your head and prevent having to run in odd directions.

if you are talking about carving turns on landing, i've been working on thse quit a bit. the wingover looks cool. that's where i'm headed with the carving turns.

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Learn to slide; in a good slide you don't turn the canopy with your legs.

when i had that alpha i was a master at sliding. i haven't had to slide out any landings with the FX. right after i broke my first ankle on the alpha i sold that thing and bought my FX. glad i did. i don't see how i survived those alpha days. the alpha flew really good up in the air but as for openings and landings that canopy sucked.

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Your ankles are weak; you shouldn't be taking impacts with them.

you're not kiddin'. after i struck that slab of concrete the bone doctor gave me a perscription to be gellin' like mcgellin. those rubber heal pads help alot with anykind of hard landing on your feet. especially concrete or asphalt. i think all skydivers should be gellin'.

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Take the abuse on your thighs and calves if you need to at all, via a modified (sliding) PLF; if you do need to take bad landings more than once every 100 jumps or so, upsize until you can land a canopy more reliably.

like a said above i had that modified sliding plf down to an art when i had that alpha. but other than the 2 bad landing i listed above i haven't had any bad ones on the FX. i think you are right about upsizing if you crash more than once every 100 jumps. had i done that with the alpha it probably would have saved me several tears and holes in my jumpsuit.

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An FX74 is not the canopy to learn swooping basics on (even if you're loading it at only 2 to 1.)

i learned the basics on stilettos and my alpha. i load my FX at 1.9. i don't know if you intended to but you make it sound like 2.1 is a light loading for an FX.

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>(of course I made a cast jump).

That simply doesn't jibe with "But it's never worth the risk when it's preventable." Decide whether it's acceptable to take unneccesary risks BEFORE they put you in the hospital (or worse.)

i couldn't pass up the chance to make a cast jump because you never know when you will get the chance again. i prevented any additional risk by checking with the bone doctor first, thinking it thru beforehand and using my spectre loaded at 1.18. but in anything you do you can't rule out the possibility of murphee's law. i got about a 5 yard swoop on that landing and during that i cannalled the heel of my cast thru a huge fire ant bed. i kept my toes up so that i wouldn't trip on the cast and break my leg again in the scenario that my bone doctor warned me about. i landed on my good leg keeping my cast up and behind me and fell forward breaking my fall with my arms and hands. nothin' to it.

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That's just one of them. Others are:

-Don't land downwind

true, but it's good to know how to land downwind. one day you might find yourself in a situation where you have to land downwind. if it's an emergency situation and you've never done it before then there is a much better chance you might get hurt. besides downwinders when done correctly are fun.

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-Don't swoop when conditions aren't perfect

true, but how often are conditions perfect? that's like saying don't swoop on the sunset load, when the ground is wet, when there's a little turbulence or an obstacle in the landing area, or 22 other people in the air with you headed for the same landing area, or when you are landing off. all of these scenarios are not black and white rules of thumb. they depend on the pilot. for what's it worth i do not swoop in high gusting winds.

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-Land safe, not close

i'll take a good swoop and land off anyday, but in this case i was on a back to back load and opted for whatever set me down closest to the loading area which happened to be on the other side of the landing area where i landed. had i decided to 180 it into the wind i would have missed the next load. you may be thinking that i missed it anyway because i busted my foot and in the end you are right. i made it to the loading area and was ready for the back to back load after hitting that concrete. on that praticular load hardly anybody else was ready so the pilot shut the plane down anyway. after i showed the video in the packing room, Meg grounded me until i went to the doctor.

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-Plan ahead to avoid obstacles

had i known those concrete slabs were in that ditch i wouldn't have landed down it. which was the point in me posting the incident. know your landing area.

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-Learn to flare turn for obstacle avoidance

now that's got me thinking about a swoop obstacle course. maybe set up some cones or something. theirs a field north of our DZ that is full of 5 and 6' tall mamoossa (sp?) trees. mamoossa (?) trees are tall, thin, soft and very flexible. fun to swoop around. you hardly notice it when you run one over. i definitely recommend swooping mamoossa (?) trees to learn obstacle avoidance.

[Canuck 0]

Dude, if you weren't looking for some feedback, then why bother posting the incidents in the first place?

The first thing I thought when I read your post was why is this guy bragging about how often he hurts himself flying a canopy he apparently can't handle?

By the way, high winds don't make your canopy dive any longer. I too use to believe that myth, but it has been discussed to death in the forums, and I have now come to realize that it simply is not true. And you can slide out landings on concrete - I have seen it done dozens of times in AZ when people overshoot the main landing area. You just need to get your feet way out in front of you. As for tall grass, my landing area is a gopher hole filled pasture, and I slide 'em out every time. Running out landings is asking for trouble.

Canuck

[Levin 0]

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Dude, if you weren't looking for some feedback, then why bother posting the incidents in the first place?

the point i was trying to get across was to get people to consider wearing high top boots when swooping especially over the ground. the high top boot made all the difference in the world between the two breaks. the talus bone is a miserable world of hurt and fibula was nothing more than an inconvenience. that was the only point i was trying to get across. i figured better in this forum than the swoop forum because i didn't think there was anything to further discuss. perhaps i was wrong. maybe a moderator should move it to a more appropriate forum or delete the thread entirely.

as for high winds not causing the canopy to dive further would you please post or pm me a link to that discussion. if what you say is true then i would like to see somekind of proof of that before i change my oppinion.

[Levin 0]

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as for high winds not causing the canopy to dive further would you please post or pm me a link to that discussion. if what you say is true then i would like to see somekind of proof of that before i change my oppinion.

nevermind, hooknswoop is explaining it to me in a pm. but thanks anyway.

[Canuck 0]

I was just digging up the thread that Hooknswoop was the most active in debunking that myth in. I don't know how to make clickies, but you will find it if you search in canopy control and landing for "losing altitude in a carve in wind vs. no wind." It's a long thread, but there is some very good discussion in it. That thread, and a bunch of experimenting under my canopy, made me change my mind on the matter.

Canuck

[Levin 0]

i use the url buttons, but i don't know how to make the word clicky work for a link either. i was just telling hooknswoop that i pretty much stay out of that forum because i think it is full of bad information. for someone like me who doesn't know all the technical stuff it can be hard to decipher the good from the bad. plus the egos are huge. but if that is a good discussion i'll find it and check it out.

[bob.dino 1]

Here's the thread.

[bob.dino 1]

When composing a post, click on the 'Get Markup Help' for info on how to create clickable URLs (it's down near the bottom of the page).

[billvon 3,118]

>absolutely! for example when swooping in high winds you have to let
> off the risers a little higher because the wind pushing on the top of
> your canopy wants to keep you in a dive.

Nope; doesn't matter what the winds are doing. What worries me is that you might let off risers LATER in no-wind conditions; don't do that!

>i've only got lazy twice in the past almost 1000 jumps and it hurt
>both times, but i didn't die.

I've seen people really fuck themselves up (and kill themselves) because of a perhaps half second lapse in attention. There's no room for error at those loadings. You have to be 100% on it (and be current enough to be 100% on it) every time. We all read the incident reports about what happens when someone is paying only 90% attention to their landing.

>but that's assuming the grass is mowed. if the grass is more than 3
> inches high then it may not be possible to to do a 15mph standing
> up double feet slide. what if you have to land on concrete.

Don't try to run out a downwind landing on concrete or in a bad area. In general, any injury or death is the result of several mistakes i.e.:

1. Deciding to land downwind
2. on concrete
3. in an unfamiliar area
4. with a little front riser
5. and trying to stand it up

or whatever series of mistakes get made. Once you realize you're in a bad situation (say, landing out) then switch from fun mode to survival mode. Break the chain before it gets long enough to hurt you.

Case in point - I once screwed up and ended up on a state record attempt with FX-21 96 loaded around 2.1. And of course we had a bad spot, and of course there was almost no wind. I might have been able to make the DZ, but there was a field beneath me that I knew I could make. From the time I realized I was in a bad situation (and I had made several mistakes to get to that point) I concentrated on survival. I flew the most conservative pattern I could, picked a dirt path through the field, and intentionally laid it down. End result - dirty jumpsuit. Swooping the path, or downwinding it, might have been the one mistake that tipped the balance and put me in the hospital.

On the next jump I planned more carefully, got out low, and started playing with the canopy. Since I was able to set up exactly where I was going to land, and I knew the winds and had no traffic, I could concentrate a lot more on just swooping the thing.

>i learned the basics on stilettos and my alpha. i load my FX at 1.9. i
> don't know if you intended to but you make it sound like 2.1 is a
> light loading for an FX.

No; I just know you're light, and I wanted to note to other people reading this thread that you're loading isn't 3.2 to 1 or something.

>i couldn't pass up the chance to make a cast jump because you
> never know when you will get the chance again.

?? I had pneumonia once; I realize that I might never get the chance to jump with pneumonia again, but I'm OK missing that particular experience. Decide what the benefit is to you, and see if the risk is worth it. Is there any benefit to jumping with a cast (other than to say you jumped with a cast?)

>i prevented any additional risk by checking with the bone doctor first . . .

. . . who told you there was additional risk.

Look, you can do whatever you want, including jumping with a cast and landing in fireants. But please don't kid yourself that you're being safe about it. You're taking about every risk there is.

BTW the biggest problem jumping with a cast is that you will favor that leg, and that can really screw you up if you have to PLF or something. I know one guy who favored a foot and ended up breaking his arm twice (and it was always the arm on the other side.)

>true, but it's good to know how to land downwind. one day you might
> find yourself in a situation where you have to land downwind.

That's exactly right! And you practice it on perfect days, with light winds, a good landing area, no traffic etc. That way you minimize the risk. You don't do it when you're landing in an unfamiliar area; that's just adding to the risk for no reason.

>true, but how often are conditions perfect? that's like saying don't
> swoop on the sunset load, when the ground is wet, when there's a
> little turbulence or an obstacle in the landing area, or 22 other
> people in the air with you headed for the same landing area, or
> when you are landing off.

That's exactly what I'm saying. Don't swoop under those conditions, at least if your objective is to avoid unneccesary risk. It means you might not be able to swoop on every jump. At Perris, I don't do more than a 90 on 3 out of 4 jumps for all the reasons you listed. If you do want to do them, fine - but you are significantly increasing the risk that you'll wind up back in the hospital.

Look at the serious swoopers at any place that does canopy competitions. They get out low to avoid traffic, they sequence themselves so they have the landing area/pond to themselves, they avoid turbulence, and they don't do it when there are obstacles in the landing area. There's a reason they're so good - they have made thousands and thousands of jumps without getting hurt, and managing the landing area is one way they do that.

>i'll take a good swoop and land off anyday, but in this case i was on
> a back to back . . ..

"Being in a hurry" is the worst possible reason to downwind something. That ranks up there with "I pulled at 800 feet because I had to get down fast to make the next load."

>had i decided to 180 it into the wind i would have missed the next
> load. you may be thinking that i missed it anyway because i busted
> my foot . . .

Yep. You end up making less jumps in the long run when stuff like that happens.

>now that's got me thinking about a swoop obstacle course. maybe
> set up some cones or something. theirs a field north of our DZ that
> is full of 5 and 6' tall mamoossa (sp?) trees. mamoossa (?) trees
> are tall, thin, soft and very flexible. fun to swoop around. you
>hardly notice it when you run one over. i definitely recommend
> swooping mamoossa (?) trees to learn obstacle avoidance.

Having had a few close calls with trees, I think cones would be better. Even soft trees tend to like to grab your canopy/suspension lines and result in an eventful landing.

Not to belabor the point, but what you're doing now ain't working too well, and it might be your spine or your skull the next time. Perhaps a slight change to your criteria for swooping might be in order - if you want to avoid future injuries, that is. Or accept that you might wind up paralyzed or whatever and keep doing what you're doing. Just please accept that you might never walk again _before_ you decide to keep doing this stuff.

[Speer 0]

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the point i was trying to get across was to get people to consider wearing high top boots when swooping especially over the ground. the high top boot made all the difference in the world between the two breaks. the talus bone is a miserable world of hurt and fibula was nothing more than an inconvenience. that was the only point i was trying to get across.

High top boots will not ensure that your Talus remains injury free, in fact, the Talus is more often the recipient of compression fracture (the downward impact) than damage due to a wrenching motion...he sighs knowingly. A fractured Talus is not all that uncommon for troopers who try to stand up a landing under a round... while wearing much more supportive footwear than your high top Sketchers...

While protective equipment is a good idea in any endeavor, it is not proper to focus on that aspect, in favor of sound judgement and skill set development; which would seem a preferable course, and more likely to avoid the painful first hand experience you seem to have developed a penchant for.

Skydiving is a contact sport... minimizing the severity of contact will likely lengthen your ability to continue actively in it. I've lived on both sides of my signature line, and know where I'd rather be... how about you?

Russ

Generally, it is your choice; will your life serve as an example... or a warning?

[Levin 0]

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Nope; doesn't matter what the winds are doing. What worries me is that you might let off risers LATER in no-wind conditions; don't do that!

quit the opposite. i have a tendency to let of the risers a little high in higher wind consitions (if i try to swoop at all). since that's the case i guess it should have dawned on me that high winds weren't keeping the canopy in a dive longer. don't worry dude. i've got that canopy dialed in pretty well.

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I've seen people really fuck themselves up (and kill themselves)

me too. on more occasions than i can count.

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Case in point - I once screwed up and ended up on a state record attempt with FX-21 96 loaded around 2.1. And of course we had a bad spot, and of course there was almost no wind. I might have been able to make the DZ, but there was a field beneath me that I knew I could make. From the time I realized I was in a bad situation (and I had made several mistakes to get to that point) I concentrated on survival. I flew the most conservative pattern I could, picked a dirt path through the field, and intentionally laid it down. End result - dirty jumpsuit. Swooping the path, or downwinding it, might have been the one mistake that tipped the balance and put me in the hospital.

i have alot of off airport landings. i usually don't think anything of it other than i hope i don't have to walk all that way back. i know every field around my dz that i might could land off in. i know which ones have plowed dirt. which ones have vines, weeds and thorns. which ones are safer in high gusting winds. which ones have dogs (nice or mean) and which fields have owners that specifically don't want people landing there. i know which ones have owners that don't mind if we land there as long as we don't step on the barb wire to climb the fence. i make it a point to know all these potential alternate landing areas because i (for whatever reason) tend to land off more than the average person. and because i know these areas so well i can stay in fun mode when i have to land in them. on the plus side i can focus more on my swoop since i don't have to worry about any traffic.

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Is there any benefit to jumping with a cast (other than to say you jumped with a cast?)

that's it. since i'm hoping i'll never have to wear one again i decided to take advantage of the opportunity while it was available.

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. . . who told you there was additional risk.

the bone doctor did. he said if i landed on the cast and fell forward the top of the cast would break my tibia just below my knee. that didn't sound like alot of fun so i kept that leg behind me and raised it up so that when i touched down that leg wouldn't touch anything. i used a big fat spectre120 to make that jump. not my FX. worked like a charm. and since now i know it can be done and i know how to do it if i ever do winde up in a cast again i might not have to sit out all that time not jumping.

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That's exactly right! And you practice it on perfect days, with light winds, a good landing area, no traffic etc. That way you minimize the risk. You don't do it when you're landing in an unfamiliar area; that's just adding to the risk for no reason.

and you can also minimize even more risk by allways only doing solo belly jumps and using raven4's.

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Look at the serious swoopers at any place that does canopy competitions. They get out low to avoid traffic, they sequence themselves so they have the landing area/pond to themselves, they avoid turbulence, and they don't do it when there are obstacles in the landing area.

that's like saying you should only be swooping when doing hop 'n pops. and i know of one swooper who is one the best of the best that has had a love for swooping obstacles in the landing area since he started swooping.

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Not to belabor the point, but what you're doing now ain't working too well, and it might be your spine or your skull the next time. Perhaps a slight change to your criteria for swooping might be in order - if you want to avoid future injuries, that is. Or accept that you might wind up paralyzed or whatever and keep doing what you're doing. Just please accept that you might never walk again _before_ you decide to keep doing this stuff.

Look dude, the only reason i made this post (wishing i hadn't now) is because i believe that wearing high top boots is safer than wearing tennis shoes just like wearing a helmet is safer than not wearing one. i had two accidents the exact same way, 3 years apart. the bone i broke wearing tennis shoes sucked worse than words can describe. the bone i broke wearing boots was no biggie. i posted my experiences because i hate to think of somebody else having to go thru what i did on that first break. what inspired me to make the post was striking that concrete slab. and again the boots saved me from a worse injury. i bet most every swooper on these forums has had more than 3 ugly crash landings. they are just luckier than me in that each time they didn't get hurt. i'm thinking 3 crashes out of 1200 swoops isn't too bad. i don't think any change in my swooping criteria is in order. as for winding up paralyzed, my mom was paralyzed when i was 5 years old. i grew up around that. i have a better grasp of being paralyzed than any of yall. it's a risk i accept jumping out of planes just like i accept the risk of being killed. just like you accept those risk as well, otherwise you wouldn't be jumping yourself.

end of discussion.

[Levin 0]

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penchant

poor choice of words.

i may have a penchant for being an aggresive canopy pilot. i may have a penchant for doing things that put me at a higher risk. i don't have a penchant for getting hurt. no one does.

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Skydiving is a contact sport... minimizing the severity of contact

and when you do have contact, high top boots minimizes the severity over tennis shoes.

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I've lived on both sides of my signature line, and know where I'd rather be... how about you?

i don't have a signature line.

again, end of discussion.

[cloud9 0]

I came close to not posting this because I know it’s not in line with the rules but I think it fits and that some of you need to hear it.
I personally know of 3 incidents that happened in the last 12 months that should have been reported here. The reason they were not is that anyone posting here about an incident gets slam dunked.
One incident happened at the Mardi Gras boogie last year a canopy collision on opening A lot of people could have leaned from it. Another was a friend that tried to cut away and only got one riser released it resulted in a main reserve entanglement many folks could have learned from it. But this person was not going to post here because they feared all the kicking going on. The other incident I'm not going to give away because the person feels that strong about it not ending up here.
There are better ways to learn then to kick a guy when he's down. We are missing out on many learning opportunities because of the attitudes in this forum.
If you really think your teaching by doing this please think again. Like I said I know of at least 3 incidents how others are out there?

[Levin 0]

i've witnessed more incidents than i can count on 2 hands (not involving me) that alot of people could learn something from if they were posted in this forum. i can assure you i am never posting anything in this forum again no matter what the incident or who it involves or what can be learned from it.

now please.........

end of discussion.

[billvon 3,118]

>that's like saying you should only be swooping when doing hop 'n pops.

A great many swoopers at Perris do primarily hop and pops because it's not safe to pull a 360 into a crowded landing area. Nothing wrong with doing them on any load as long as the area is clear, but they've learned that the area is clear more often when they get out low. And for serious swoopers, being able to reliably swoop is important to them.

>i posted my experiences because i hate to think of somebody else
>having to go thru what i did on that first break.

And one of the reasons I've answered you the way I did is that I don't want to see anyone else killed or permanently maimed. Since I've been an S+TA (I'm not one any more) I've seen two deaths, five really serious injuries (i.e. 8 broken bones on one jumper, broken back, pelvis, brain damage) and a dozen minor injuries like femurs or whatever due to canopy control problems. All of them were preventable. No one has to stop skydiving to prevent them; no one even has to stop swooping. All those people just made bad decisions. One approach to this is to say "Hey, shit happens, wear a helmet" - another way is to choose to make better decisions, get better training, or get a more appropriate canopy

Another case in point. While I was S+TA, Brett started swooping. He downsized to a Stiletto XX (something really small, I forget what it was) and pounded in one landing after another. We all tried to talk to him. He didn't want to hear any of it; he was invulnerable, was an excellent swooper, understood the risks, blah blah blah. We all knew he was an incident waiting to happen.

Then he broke his femur, and that scared him. He took some time off, and when he got back into jumping, he upsized his canopy and got good instruction. I caught up with him about three years later at a PST event, where he had come in first in the slalom event. "You know, Bill, I never listened to you guys," he said. "You kept telling me to upsize, to not toggle turn, and I never listened. It took that broken femur to make me reconsider." One of my hopes with posts like this is that someone might read this and decide to change what they are doing _without_ having to break their femur first.

You realize the risks of what you're doing, and can do whatever you want - but not everyone who reads this is like you. Some may read your post and think "You know, the next time I find myself having to land out under a tiny canopy, and I downwind swoop a ditch with concrete in it, I should be safe and wear shoes with good ankle support." And while there is nothing wrong with you choosing to do that, I wanted to make it clear to anyone _else_ reading this thread that wearing different shoes is not addressing the problems of swooping an unfamiliar ditch downwind during an off-field landing.

[billvon 3,118]

>If you really think your teaching by doing this please think again. Like
>I said I know of at least 3 incidents how others are out there?

Hundreds, surely.

At the top of this forum is a sticky post that says "what will happen when you post here." Let's say you post "I had a lineover and decided to land it, but I broke my back," people will probably reply "you should have cut away." Such discussions are the very reason this forum is here; a newer jumper may read this and realize that a) some lineovers seem landable but b) it's still a bad idea to land one - and that's good information. It is not a forum to get moral support, nor is it a forum to justify your actions. It is a forum to learn about stuff.

Posting incidents in a forum like this helps other skydivers. If you have no desire to do that, don't post here. If you do want to help other skydivers, but your feelings will be hurt by comments along the lines of "you should have cut away from the lineover" then feel free to post here and not read the replies. That way you will not have to see anyone second-guess you, but the benefit for others will still be there.

[Levin 0]

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but your feelings will be hurt by comments along the lines of "you should have cut away from the lineover" then feel free to post here and not read the replies. That way you will not have to see anyone second-guess you,

and by doing so you leave everyone else to draw the conclusion that you are an incompetent dumbass since you did not come back and defend yourself.

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end of discussion.

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again, end of discussion.

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now please.........

end of discussion.