NeedToJump 0 #51 August 24, 2007 QuoteThe Coaches course I took was 3 full 10+ hour days of ground school and evaluations. These rating were in no way just handed out. Writing a check was quick and easy. Passing the course was not and it was a great and worthwhile learning experience. That's great, that's exactly what I think the course should be. QuoteIf that is even remotely true, Then the USPA needs to do something about their examiners. I do know of a few jumpers on the west coast that just said they "Sat around a Table on a Friday night and all got signed off". I agree that is completely BS and the examiner that did that should loose their credentials. Something like that discredits the entire program. I agree with this completely. I think that there are good examiners and good coaches, but there are also really crappy examiners and coaches. If all the examiners took the course seriously and made sure the students put in the time and effort to become a good coach, then I think the problem of poorly qualified coaches would be eliminated. QuoteMy problem is people having to PAY someone to jump with them to begin with. I have no problem paying a coach to work with me. I also coach quite a bit and generally don't charge anything. If someone comes up to me wanting a 1-on-1 coached jump and doing that jump keeps me from doing something else I was planning, then I'll ask for them to cover my slot so it doesn't cost me anything. Most times I pay my own slot on all my jumps whether I'm coaching or not. QuoteYou do not need to be a Top Big Way Flyer, Pro Swooper and/or Hot shit free flyer to go out on a two way with a resent AFF grad and do basic drill dives. Just because one jumper is more skilled than another does not mean that person will make a better teacher/Coach. I completely agree. QuoteThe Rating gives Jumpers that would like to give something back to the Sport a way to “demonstrate” that they are competent to jump with a new Jumper. However, Rating or NOT, Nothing should supersede the DZO`s and/or S&TA`s opinion. Again, I completely agree. I wish that more people gave back to the sport simply to give back and help people, not because they want $$$.Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #52 August 24, 2007 holy bejeezuz and pass the peas... Guy #1: I know jumpers who XXXX.... Guy #2 (in counterpoint): Well, I know jumpers who YYYY... What a fine waste of bandwidth. Get peter meters out... Get real. There's NO PERFECT SYSTEM on the planet.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NickDG 23 #53 August 24, 2007 >>The PRO rating, to me, isn't meant to help demo organizers choose jumpers.The bad thing about the Pro Rating, besides they don't measure the qualities of a good demo jumper like old fashioned peer review, is anybody who has one can walk into the local FISDO and get a demo waiver from the FAA. It used to be if they didn't know you they'd give you the heave-ho out the door. Now the feds are off the hook because, "Hey, how should I know, the guy had that demo card." Nowadays there's more scrutiny of who's on the bandit load than who's on the demo . . . NickD BASE 194 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thanatos340 1 #54 August 24, 2007 Quote Get real. There's NO PERFECT SYSTEM on the planet. No there isnt, But when we quit trying to improve the current system, we may as well just be grouchy, cantankerous old bastards.Nothing wrong with trying to find a better way. Quote Get peter meters out... We did. You lost.My opinion - Coach Rating = Good idea, Poorly implemented. You got anything to add? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #55 August 24, 2007 Quote Because the rating used to conveys that a jumper is capable of doing that sort of instruction, ---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 5 #56 August 24, 2007 Quote Quote Because the rating used to conveys that a jumper is capable of doing that sort of instruction, Well hell...based on this thread and skygod-like responses to it... the USPA and every other governing organization should simply do away with ratings, tests, evaluations or any other measurement of anything. It's apparently all about the money. The time some have spent in classrooms, thousands of $$ on jumps and learning...it's all meaningless if half this thread is credible. Let's just go (back to) a good ole' boy system where if you're my buddy, you can take this kid on his AFF, and if you're not my buddy...go somewhere else. Doesn't matter how good you may be...you're my pal, so you must be OK. It's worked in government, and it apparently was the past history of this sport too. Bring back the good ol' boys days. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NeedToJump 0 #57 August 24, 2007 QuoteGet real. There's NO PERFECT SYSTEM on the planet. I'm not talking about creating a perfect system. I just think that a system putting out coaches who, not only have nothing to offer, but are in fact dangerous to the people they are supposed to be coaching needs fixing. Again, this isn't to imply that all the coaches are like this, but the fact that someone who is dangerous to a student can get a coach rating is a big red flag to me.Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peckerhead 0 #58 August 24, 2007 If it aint broke then fix it until it is..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hackish 8 #59 August 24, 2007 On the topic of coach ratings I would agree that it is necessary since it goes through the teaching methodology. Or does it? On the topic of paying someone is it not customary to pay for the coach's jump? Isn't that like getting to do a jump for free? Or maybe that isn't enough for the more experienced... -Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #60 August 24, 2007 QuoteLet's just go (back to) a good ole' boy system where if you're my buddy, you can take this kid on his AFF, and if you're not my buddy...go somewhere else. Doesn't matter how good you may be...you're my pal, so you must be OK. It might seem like it was that way to you, but the pass/fail rate was more like 50/50 instead of 90+ and people were evaluated as to their ability to make skydivers, not to check boxes off a list as is encouraged now.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,131 #61 August 24, 2007 Quote No there isnt, But when we quit trying to improve the current system, we may as well just be grouchy, cantankerous old bastards. OK, since you bring me into it . I see a clear difference between being allowed to jump with a beginner and being paid to coach a beginner. Teaching skill has nothing to do with being allowed to make a fun jump with a newbie. And, of course, there are very good skydivers with thousands of jumps who are also professional educators, whose teaching skills are apparently invalid unless they pay for an additional two day course on how to teach given by someone who, in general, is not a professional educator.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #62 August 24, 2007 We're talking about a period of about 15 jumps for an AFF student, between the end of AFF and the "A" licence. It's not that big a deal to require a D licence or Coach rating. Personally I would favor the D licence jumper over a fresh coach with 100 jumps most of the time, but......---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,131 #63 August 24, 2007 QuoteWe're talking about a period of about 15 jumps for an AFF student, between the end of AFF and the "A" licence. It's not that big a deal to require a D licence or Coach rating. Personally I would favor the D licence jumper over a fresh coach with 100 jumps most of the time, but...... Yes, but what does that have to do with my statements.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #64 August 25, 2007 Quote...I just think that a system putting out coaches who, not only have nothing to offer, but are in fact dangerous to the people they are supposed to be coaching needs fixing. Again, this isn't to imply that all the coaches are like this, but the fact that someone who is dangerous to a student can get a coach rating is a big red flag to me. Oh, how right you are. If only there was a way to ensure that didn't happen I would be all over it even if it meant my Coach rating got pulled. It seems that one way is to up the jump numbers. Maybe that would weed out some of the deadwood. Maybe re-design the Coach course to be more stringent. And then, do NOT grandfather anyone in.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #65 August 25, 2007 Quote ...No there isnt, But when we quit trying to improve the current system, we may as well just be grouchy, cantankerous old bastards.Nothing wrong with trying to find a better way. WHOOSSH! Quote We did. You lost. Yes, young padawan...you've let us know numerous times that you have the biggest deck. My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumpwally 0 #66 August 26, 2007 Bill , you are so right. I made my first jump in aug of '77. Shit was different back then. I was so thrilled to jump with my hero's then. I was on skydive's i had no business being on, but how was i to know. I remember my wife doing a first jump course and she had plenty of instructors (see the garage fridge thread )and all of us where buzzed. Safety was on everybody's mind, we just weren't good at it. In the eighties i weighed 220 with gear on,,i fell fast and i was base for everything. It was a thrill at 75 jumps to be dragged on loads with Jim Bohr-Tommy Pirus and Roger Nelson. I just fell, never learned to skyive, I wish my heros where still here.......................Safety, rules, disipline are everything!smile, be nice, enjoy life FB # - 1083 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
UDSkyJunkie 0 #67 August 26, 2007 QuoteThere are people who have far less experience than I do who have played the game, submitted a check, and have seen their names listed as "coaches" in the back pages of the magazine. Meanwhile, the DZO is required to treat me like a disease so as not to run afoul of divine USPA "recommendations." For the record, the BSR's do NOT require you to have a coach rating to jump with a pre-A-license student. Check Section 2-1, E-6: "Student freefall training for group freefall jumps must be conducted by either a USPA Coach under the supervision of a USPA instructor OR; USPA D license holders provided there is a minimum of one D-licence holder to one student with a maximum of a 4-way." In my opinion, this is a good common sense recommendation, and it certainly allows you to take up post-AFF students and be fully compliant with the BSR's. That point may or may not sway the DZ policy, but I thought you should know. Also for the record, properly done, I think the coach course is a good thing. I got my rating this year, an I learned a lot about how to teach, what to teach, and how to debreif to maximize the student's potential... like you, I have plenty of flying skills and experience, but I am glad I took the course because it has made me a better teacher. I have seen others with the rating who have no buisiness taking up students (although i could say a lot worse about some "AFF instructors" out there...) That will always be a problem."Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 5 #68 August 26, 2007 Quote It might seem like it was that way to you, but the pass/fail rate was more like 50/50 instead of 90+ and people were evaluated as to their ability to make skydivers, not to check boxes off a list as is encouraged now. Nothing seems like nothing to me; I wasn't around back "in the day." What I do know is that at every course I've attended, and in several discussions with various instructors, and reading posts here...no one ever fails to talk about the evaluator that failed someone "simply because he didn't like them." Or "It didn't use to be about whether you passed the course, it's whether you got the examiner to like you." I don't disagree, there certainly are coaches (and AFFI's, TI's) that have the rating that probably shouldn't, and haven't got the skills that the rating should present. There are police officers, teachers, firefighters, etc. that shouldn't be doing what they're doing either. The answer isn't global on either side of the argument. I learned a lot in my coach course, maybe I'm not what you want me to be, and I know I'm not where I want to be. But at the end of the day, I paid my money, I learned the material, I use what I learned as a starting point for where I want to go, and I'm comfortable with my progress, probably no different than anyone else that has obtained the rating. I got it so that I might be able to make a positive difference in someone else' skydiving ability, and feel it's bullsh** for someone to want to take that opportunity away from all parties involved. Look at the recent statistics; it's skygods that are killing other skydivers, not coaches. Most coaches are probably just doing the best they can as they work their plan. But it'll probably never be good enough for the skygod mentality. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
low_pull1 2 #69 August 27, 2007 im thinking you should have asked him to do a Demo ...hired a plane and jumped off of the DZ. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #70 August 27, 2007 Quote and I know I'm not where I want to be. And that means everything in the world when it come to being a good instructor, because to be, you must also be a good student, continuously.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Airman1270 0 #71 August 27, 2007 Quoteim thinking you should have asked him to do a Demo ...hired a plane and jumped off of the DZ... _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Huh??? This is the most confusing response yet... Thanks all for the feedback. While there may be a benefit to taking the course and earning the rating (such as the ability to better communicate with "positive language" and "maximize one's ability to learn") this in itself is not reason enough to forbid a highly experienced jumper from taking a newbie or two up for a small-way. Also confusing is the attitude of those who suggest I "should have " done a solo rather than share some sky with the new guy. We ALL learned by jumping with people who were more experienced than we were. We had fun gaining some basic post-graduate experience and there was no pressure to "get the most" out of the jump (however that was defined) because we were paying extra for the other guy's jump. Meanwhile, the experienced guys enjoyed being part of our formative learning experiences. We did not go home knowing that they only wasted their time with us because because they got a free jump out of it. With all due respect, I thought Tonto's response bordered on outright hostility. Yes, I have averaged about 35 jumps per year since the mid-1980's. This is difficult to explain without getting into drama queen territory. (Short version: When I started in 1982 there was no student jumping on Long Island at the time. I had to drive 4+ hours to Albany for my training. After graduation I finally started jumping at the only DZ in the area, a small private-club Cessna operation in Moriches. Shortly afterward I was kicked off the DZ for life for political reasons. I had asked some questions and inadvertently stepped on some pretty big toes. Details available elsewhere. This slowed me down until I moved to Georgia in 1991. By then I was married and had a whole new set of priorities preventing me from spending every weekend at the DZ...) It took me longer than most to become a competent flyer, but I got there. I am not qualified to go for an AFF rating or do competition 4-way, but I am more than qualified for weekend fun-jumping RW. The fact that I cannot keep pace with Arizona Airspeed does not mean that I am a threat to anyone's safety. Furthermore, the only people making such suggestions are people who don't know me and have never jumped with me. People who have jumped with me would never make such accusations. The fact that I cannot jump every weekend does not mean that I am "not serious" about the sport, nor does it mean I have "little respect" for coaches. As to the question "why do I want to jump with students?" - I would never presume to jump with "students." That I leave to the instructional staff. I like to jump with skydivers who have graduated, especially the new guys. If you are inferring that I don't take the time to thoroughly go over the dive plan and the goals for the jump then you are in error. The fact that I've been around for nearly 25 years does not give me automatic last-word credibility, but neither does it mean my experience should be dismissed as some old fart longing for the good-ol' days. I noticed that the comments strongly in favor of the "coach" system come mostly from newer jumpers. I see an analogy to driving: Young people who have only been driving a few years cannot imagine a world without seat belt laws, "headlights on when raining" laws, H.O.V. lanes, police roadblocks, "routine" automobile searches, nighttime restrictions on teenage drivers, or ridiculous interpretations of what constitutes "drunk" driving. Meanwhile, those of us who have been driving for over 30 years remember quite well how free we were to go about our business without these stupid laws, and how these laws only came into being due to knee-jerk political pressure to "do something" following a highly publicized incident caused by blatantly violating existing laws. What's kind of funny is the comment that "rules apply to everybody" and that if we don't like it we should "lobby USPA for change." I thought that's what I was doing when I spoke up in the first place. I want to see the rules modified back to where they were 20 years ago. This would result in more freedom without placing anybody at any greater risk. Yeah, solos are fun. I've done plently of 'em. I'll just keep doing more until my flying imrpoves to the point where you won't get nervous when you see me boarding the plane behind you. Cheers, Jon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites peregrinerose 0 #72 August 27, 2007 Out of curiosity, if you want to jump with students (and if they are not yet licensed, they are still considered students, whether you consider them to be students or not), why don't you get your coach rating in order to meet that goal? Chances are you'll learn a lot in the process, and you'll meet your goal... the ability to meet DZ/USPA requirements to jump with students. The system isn't perfect, but it's what we have to work with... make the system better from within by becoming a coach (and a damn good one). Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,095 #73 August 27, 2007 >We ALL learned by jumping with people who were more experienced than we were. Very true. One or two of those people almost killed me, but for the most part that's how I learned after graduation. I think the idea behind the USPA coach rating is to do the same sort of thing without the "almost killed me" part. >Yes, I have averaged about 35 jumps per year since the mid-1980's. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that, but that makes you significantly less current than most other jumpers. Like I said before, if I knew you I probably wouldn't have a problem with it - but for someone who didn't know you, I could see how they might be concerned with you jumping with a new jumper. Jumping with an AFF student requires an AFF-I rating for a lot of reasons. The main one is you have to be able to save the student's life if he doesn't pull, but some important secondary ones are to protect the student from errors on your part and to protect yourself from errors on the _student's_ part. After graduation, the student 'officially' has the ability to save himself, but it doesn't mean his RW skills have improved tremendously between jumps 7 and 8. I used to organize at Tent 4 (beginners) at the WFFC, and learned rapidly that self-defense was an important part of that sort of organizing - because you are basically a target for several newer jumpers who sometimes more resemble heat-seeking missiles than RW jumpers. Now, I went into that with an AFF rating, so I had some experience dodging missiles and predicting where people were going to go. Many organizers/experienced jumpers have this experience as well; you probably do as well, and would have no problem doing this yourself. But at a new DZ, where no one knows you, they might see your currency level and err on the side of safety. How can you get around this? How can you prove to them that you are competent to jump with newer jumpers? One way is to make a few jumps with the DZO/an instructor/a coach etc and prove you have that ability. Another is to get a coach rating. Up to you. >As to the question "why do I want to jump with students?" - I would >never presume to jump with "students." That I leave to the instructional >staff. You are jumping with students! They're just not AFF students any more. >I noticed that the comments strongly in favor of the "coach" system >come mostly from newer jumpers. Old fart here who is in favor of the coach rating. I'm also in favor of experienced jumpers who demonstrate their abilities to the DZO to be able to jump with students. >What's kind of funny is the comment that "rules apply to everybody" >and that if we don't like it we should "lobby USPA for change." I thought >that's what I was doing when I spoke up in the first place. Well, that's more like talking. Lobbying USPA for change means talking to your regional director, emailing the national directors, going to board meetings, going to local DZ's and lobbying for your proposal etc. It takes a lot of time and effort. >I want to see the rules modified back to where they were 20 years ago. >This would result in more freedom without placing anybody at any >greater risk. 20 years ago you'd have faced the same sort of problems, albeit in a different way. "Who are you again? No, you can't jump with them; we don't know you. Now stop bothering us serious jumpers." The coach rating is one way to overcome such resistance. In many cases it gets you on loads you would otherwise not be able to do. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites low_pull1 2 #74 August 27, 2007 In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- im thinking you should have asked him to do a Demo ...hired a plane and jumped off of the DZ... _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Huh??? This is the most confusing response yet... If you dont like the rules.... get or hire your own plane. Disconnect yourself and anyone you know from USPA. Make up your own rules, jump at your favoriite landing area. Just be safe! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites popsjumper 2 #75 August 28, 2007 I think the Coach rating is a good thing...at least it helps instill a sense of safety into the issue and helps weed out those who would do something so stupid as to take a 100-jump wonder on a Demo jump. Jon, work the USPA rule change issue if you like. In the meantime (changing rules will take some time), get the Coach's rating and be done with it, eh?My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 3 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
peregrinerose 0 #72 August 27, 2007 Out of curiosity, if you want to jump with students (and if they are not yet licensed, they are still considered students, whether you consider them to be students or not), why don't you get your coach rating in order to meet that goal? Chances are you'll learn a lot in the process, and you'll meet your goal... the ability to meet DZ/USPA requirements to jump with students. The system isn't perfect, but it's what we have to work with... make the system better from within by becoming a coach (and a damn good one). Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,095 #73 August 27, 2007 >We ALL learned by jumping with people who were more experienced than we were. Very true. One or two of those people almost killed me, but for the most part that's how I learned after graduation. I think the idea behind the USPA coach rating is to do the same sort of thing without the "almost killed me" part. >Yes, I have averaged about 35 jumps per year since the mid-1980's. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that, but that makes you significantly less current than most other jumpers. Like I said before, if I knew you I probably wouldn't have a problem with it - but for someone who didn't know you, I could see how they might be concerned with you jumping with a new jumper. Jumping with an AFF student requires an AFF-I rating for a lot of reasons. The main one is you have to be able to save the student's life if he doesn't pull, but some important secondary ones are to protect the student from errors on your part and to protect yourself from errors on the _student's_ part. After graduation, the student 'officially' has the ability to save himself, but it doesn't mean his RW skills have improved tremendously between jumps 7 and 8. I used to organize at Tent 4 (beginners) at the WFFC, and learned rapidly that self-defense was an important part of that sort of organizing - because you are basically a target for several newer jumpers who sometimes more resemble heat-seeking missiles than RW jumpers. Now, I went into that with an AFF rating, so I had some experience dodging missiles and predicting where people were going to go. Many organizers/experienced jumpers have this experience as well; you probably do as well, and would have no problem doing this yourself. But at a new DZ, where no one knows you, they might see your currency level and err on the side of safety. How can you get around this? How can you prove to them that you are competent to jump with newer jumpers? One way is to make a few jumps with the DZO/an instructor/a coach etc and prove you have that ability. Another is to get a coach rating. Up to you. >As to the question "why do I want to jump with students?" - I would >never presume to jump with "students." That I leave to the instructional >staff. You are jumping with students! They're just not AFF students any more. >I noticed that the comments strongly in favor of the "coach" system >come mostly from newer jumpers. Old fart here who is in favor of the coach rating. I'm also in favor of experienced jumpers who demonstrate their abilities to the DZO to be able to jump with students. >What's kind of funny is the comment that "rules apply to everybody" >and that if we don't like it we should "lobby USPA for change." I thought >that's what I was doing when I spoke up in the first place. Well, that's more like talking. Lobbying USPA for change means talking to your regional director, emailing the national directors, going to board meetings, going to local DZ's and lobbying for your proposal etc. It takes a lot of time and effort. >I want to see the rules modified back to where they were 20 years ago. >This would result in more freedom without placing anybody at any >greater risk. 20 years ago you'd have faced the same sort of problems, albeit in a different way. "Who are you again? No, you can't jump with them; we don't know you. Now stop bothering us serious jumpers." The coach rating is one way to overcome such resistance. In many cases it gets you on loads you would otherwise not be able to do. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
low_pull1 2 #74 August 27, 2007 In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- im thinking you should have asked him to do a Demo ...hired a plane and jumped off of the DZ... _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Huh??? This is the most confusing response yet... If you dont like the rules.... get or hire your own plane. Disconnect yourself and anyone you know from USPA. Make up your own rules, jump at your favoriite landing area. Just be safe! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #75 August 28, 2007 I think the Coach rating is a good thing...at least it helps instill a sense of safety into the issue and helps weed out those who would do something so stupid as to take a 100-jump wonder on a Demo jump. Jon, work the USPA rule change issue if you like. In the meantime (changing rules will take some time), get the Coach's rating and be done with it, eh?My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
