Time to do away with the "coach" rating

[DSE 5]

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i was taught safety and fun from the first jump - the fun seems to have been dropped from the training program - who cares if the student can do 15 points at 20 jumps - they will be around alot longer if they are having fun - safety and fun let the precision come later - lets just get them in the air with a smile on thier face and land safetly - we can teach them how to turn points after they are hooked on the sport - the retention after aff is horrible because it is large amounts of expensive coach jumps with no fun - i like the training for the caoch rating but i think the coach jumps should cost no more than the slots - if you want to make money become an instructor otherwise teach safety and fun for free - jmo

I'm not understanding...what does turning points have to do with coached student jumps?

[billvon 3,111]

>lets just get them in the air with a smile on thier face and land safetly -
>we can teach them how to turn points . . .

?? Who wants to teach newbies how to turn lots of points? Who cares how many points they can turn - as long as they can try safely?

>after they are hooked on the sport . . .

That's up to them, not us. My job as an instructor is to make sure they are equipped to skydive safely, and to make the process enjoyable. They choose whether or not they stick with it. Leave the "getting people hooked" part to the drug dealers and advertising people.

>if you want to make money become an instructor otherwise teach safety
>and fun for free - jmo

I don't teach for the money; I can make 15-20 times the amount of money by consulting. I do it because I enjoy working with students.

[marks2065 0]

coach jumps from aff to a lic seem to be more more about training than having fun - i have seen alot of aff grads quit because they found more fun things to do lately - keep the student happy and they will get better in time

[kallend 2,146]

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I have friends who are world record holders. I wouldn't let them jump with me when I was doing a level 7, even if they just wanted to do a "simple, safe 3-way."

Can you amplify that statement?

What about you world record holding friends disqualified them?

What if the student was beyond level 7 but still had no license?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[marks2065 0]

you and a few like you are still around but the attitude is changing to give me money and then you'll get trained - after spending 5 to 7 grand for aff and gear now they want another 70-100 bucks a jump for coaching - just seems we would have alot lot better retention if people could afford to jump - i know 2 people that stopped jumping because of this situation in the last year - they get through aff then buy gear then expensive coach jumps then the used gear they bought "isn't safe" because it is older and they just get frustrated and quit because they spent every dollar they have over a 1 - 2 year period and everyone still wants more money for everything - you must get caoching and modern gear and tunnel time or the newer coaches and dzo's drop you and move to the next guy with a dollar in their pocket - what ever happened to lets take the new guy and have some fun and we'll teach them along the way ?

[billvon 3,111]

>Can you amplify that statement?

I generally won't let anyone jump with me on a level 7 unless a) they have an AFF rating and b) they have a reason to jump with me, like this is his fourth time trying to pass the level and they're taking the student next. This is NOT because I think the person is "diseased" or that they suck. It just means that they don't have the training to be around an AFF student. A level 7 is NOT just a two way.

>What about you world record holding friends disqualified them?

Lack of the appropriate experience/training.

>What if the student was beyond level 7 but still had no license?

Would depend on the student and the jumper. Good RW guy with a few thousand jumps, decent new graduate, no compatibility issues? No problem. 120 lb female graduate, 210 lb guy with 600 jumps over ten years who thinks she's cute? I might have an issue with that.

[lauraliscious 0]

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Whether the new jumpers are licensed or not is irrelevant. They've been taught the basics and have proven they can jump without an instructor's supervision. Hence, they are "qualified." If not, they should still be students.

1) Students.
2) Graduates.

Why are we trying so hard to invent an "in between" category? Who benefits?

Cheers,
Jon

I've read through most of the posts, and if this has already been addressed then I apologize. But when I was getting my A-license I was told I was still a "student" until I became licensed. IMO there are just levels of student....

Enemiga Rodriguez, PMS #369, OrFun #25, Team Dirty Sanchez #116, Pelt Head #29, Muff #4091

[billvon 3,111]

>But when I was getting my A-license I was told I was still a "student"
>until I became licensed. IMO there are just levels of student....

And to a large degree people are students for long after that. Graduating AFF does not mean it's safe for you to do a 4-way, although it's certainly possible to learn how to do so safely. Getting a D license does not mean it's safe to jump with AFF students or do a 100-way - although, again, it's certainly possible to do both.

There is no hard and fast division between X and Y in skydiving most of the time. About the only really hard division is graduation from a student program; that's an event that states "this person is now safe to jump on their own."

[peckerhead 0]

>>>D licenced jumpers still need to be signed off by the S&TA to jump with unlicenced jumpers.

Phree, please give a credible source for this statement. What do you mean by "signed off"?

And I would like to add to the general discussion: a "D" license shows a much higher skill level than a "B" license.

We have dumbed-down the Jumpmaster rating and still people are upset?

What is up with that?

[popsjumper 2]

Keep the Coach rating. At least it inserts a level of training and expertise into the formula instead of just sending students out with any old bozo that doesn't know jack himself.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[AFFI 0]

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Keep the Coach rating. At least it inserts a level of training and expertise into the formula instead of just sending students out with any old bozo that doesn't know jack himself.

Good old Level 8's!

[rehmwa 2]

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Keep the Coach rating.

Not a fan of the coach rating, not a fan of the PRO rating

Locals should be able assess who is capable of going out with post-grad students. Letting a stranger do this is silly - whether they have a rating or not. If you know the jumper's skills and teaching ability, then the rating is also moot. Some of the 'worst' skydivers I know have a coach rating.

The demo organizer should able to assess who can land and make a good show. Letting stranger on a demo - just because they have some rating is also silly. If you know the jumper's skills, then the rating is also moot.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Thanatos340 1]

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Really, what exactly is a "coach" rating and what does it prove?

It proves that someone took the time and effort to learn how to "Teach" or "Coach" new Jumpers and they are qualified to do so.

I believe in the Coach rating, I just hate the way that is has been applied. Many DZ`s just use this as way to bleed students out of more cash. I personally think this has a great deal to do with why our numbers are dropping so quickly.

So who should be qualified to Jump with resent AFF grads that have not yet earned their A License??
USPA has clarified their position and said D licensed Jumpers are Qualified (Sounds reasonable) so if you look at the Coach Rating as a way for those that do not yet have a D license to prove they are also competent to help a jumper in this Limbo stage of Skydiving (Cleared to Jump Solo but still a student), Then it is a Good thing.

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If they are not safe to jump unsupervised, why were they permitted to graduate from the student program? And if they are in fact safe and are qualified to have graduated, why can't they jump with me?

After Aff I remember being told I was "Cleared for Solo" and "Cleared to Jumpmaster self". Now you and I came from the same place and I think I may have even jumped with you around that time as the rules were different. A Small DZ where the DZO knew everyone and their Skill level. He could easily say "Jump with him/her" and know who was qualified and who was not. At bigger DZ`s that is not realistic. So we have guidelines. D License or Coach Rating to Jump with the unlicensed AFF grad. (I just see the Coach rating as way for people without D Licenses to also be able prove they can jump with the Newbies and help them learn.)

What I don’t like about the coach rating is they way it has been used. newbie’s are expected to at a minimum also have to pay for the Slot and Pack job for any coach they jump with. And some DZ`s will not even allow that unless they also make a little off the deal so it is the Extra Slot, Pack Job, Cash for the Coach and a Cut for the DZ. And people wonder why this sport is dying.

When I graduated AFF, There was a line of qualified people arguing over who got to jump with the Newbie next. Pay it back was the mantra.
The simple solution is either get your "D" or get a coach rating (Prove you are qualified to Jump with these students in transition from AFF to A License) and go for it. If the DZ requires the students to PAY extra for you to jump with them, Find a different DZ.

The coach rating is not the problem, They way it ia being used is the problem.

[AFFI 0]

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Some of the 'worst' skydivers I know have a coach rating.

What makes a "worst" skydiver?

[hackish 8]

Some people know things from their experience but by making these people coaches and going through the methods of teaching and coaching a student you can give them the procedures for correctly passing on their knowledge. What is obvious to the experienced may need to be explained thoroughly to a student or recent graduate. I think the coach rating is a good idea.

-Michael

[AFFI 0]

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I think the coach rating is a good idea.

Why?

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[rehmwa 2]

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Some of the 'worst' skydivers I know have a coach rating.

What makes a "worst" skydiver?

generally the smell, dressing strangely, odd comments at inappropriate times, digressing on how they like oatmeal as their favorite foods, not knowing which fork is the salad fork.

things like that

(I'm only talking flying skill relative to jump numbers. Nothing else. I also know some very talented coaches. The point is, IMO, the rating is worthless, I see no clear evidence that having that rating can, by itself, give me confidence that this jumper has the ability to provide productive instruction to a newbie. If a 'stranger' came up to me and noted he had a Coach Rating, I wouldn't point a newbie at him. I certainly wouldn't recommend the newbie pay his slot. Not until I jumped with the 'coach' first.)

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Thanatos340 1]

Skill vs ability to teach Basics are not always relevant.

The best freeflyer in the world may not be worth a shit teaching a resent AFF grad how to maintain and/or adjust fall rate.

The inverse may also be true, the world shittiest Freeflyer may be able to teach the fundamentals of belly flying in a one on one enviroment just fine.

Teaching or Coaching an AFF grad is not completely dependant on how Top Knotch someones individual skills are. It is more about being able to safely jump with them and then "Communicate" with that person in a manner that they will understand and learn from.

[rehmwa 2]

Fair statement. (though the comment had little to do with freefly ability and rather belly skills - though there should also be coaching for freefly once the newbie has progressed through a large number of jumps or so and gotten reasonably competent in a normal arch or beginner mantis)

However, my same comment applies to teaching ability. I don't see a distinction between (the proportion of) "Coaches" (TM) that teach well vs just babble, and your normal group of up-jumpers.

I'd prefer that the chief instructor of a DZ just have a list of people he thinks are qualified. He knows the locals. (I think in practice, a good DZ will go just that anyway and the coach rating would have zero impact on the representation on that list).

I just don't see any value added in this particular rating. (other than more $$ to USPA)

The only thing I do see is comments like the initial poster where 'some' DZs have taken the rating and used it as a means to make money and 'discourage' up jumpers from taking up newbies. (though in his case I read it as more of a stranger showing up and offering to take newbies prior to the local finding out if he was able to).

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[pilotdave 0]

It is STILL up to the DZ to determine who can jump with students and who can't, regardless of ratings. My DZ most definitely has refused to let rated coaches jump with our students, at least until those coaches completed a coach rating eval jump locally, to prove they have the appropriate skills.

The rating does mean something when it's used properly. It also means that perfectly qualified people aren't allowed to jump with students anymore because they don't have coach ratings... my DZ won't allow non-rated D-license holders to jump with students. But thats more for liability.

Coaching definitely works... our new A-licensed jumpers are about a billion times better than I was after 7 AFF levels and the 13 solos that qualified me for an A-license. Coach jumps are zero profit for our DZ, other than slots and gear rental. Coach gets $5, which is taxed, so I prefer to just manifest as two slots instead of a coach jump. I literally got a paycheck for about $4 last time I got paid.

Dave

[Thanatos340 1]

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7 AFF levels and the 13 solos that qualified me for an A-license

Why 13 solos??
I remember after after AFF the DZO let me make one solo and then after that, He highly discouraged solos. Said you cant learn much on a solo because you have no point of reference in the sky. He would call someone over and tell me to jump with them. This was before the coach rating and it was up to the DZO who was qualified and who was not. Never paid more than just my slot for those jumps and never once saw one of experienced jumpers that the DZO suggested do anything other than jump at the chance to go out with a resent AFF grad.

Now with the Coach rating, Students are forced to do solos or pay someone to jump with them. I think the end result is that you see more AFF grads doing solos than before. The point about not having a point of reference in the sky is very accurate in my opinion. No way to judge fall rate, no way to know if they are back sliding, no one to make suggestions for improvement once they land. Solos build confidence but they do very little to teach basic skills.

So is the rating really creating better A License Holders or is it actually getting in the way of them learning because now they have to pay someone to jump with them?

Yes, They are getting better instruction on the Jumps that they pay someone to jump with them (Usually), But are they doing fewer jumps with others because of the costs?

[rehmwa 2]

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It is STILL up to the DZ to determine who can jump with students and who can't, regardless of ratings.

I'm glad there is sanity somewhere.

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It also means that perfectly qualified people aren't allowed to jump with students anymore because they don't have coach ratings...

And that's broken - without the coach rating, then your DZ policy would be based on your first paragraph only. The only thing that happened is unnecessary restrictions.

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Coaching definitely works

agree, and "Coaching" can be done by anyone, artificial rating not needed

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[NeedToJump 0]

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Not a fan of the coach rating...

Locals should be able assess who is capable of going out with post-grad students. Letting a stranger do this is silly - whether they have a rating or not. If you know the jumper's skills and teaching ability, then the rating is also moot. Some of the 'worst' skydivers I know have a coach rating.

I agree completely.

I think the coach rating is a great idea, but poorly implemented. I do know people with a coach rating who are fantastic coaches, but I also know people with a coach rating who have no business coaching. They would be dangerous to a student and have absolutely nothing else to offer anyone else, yet they are paid money to coach simply because their check cleared and bought them a coach rating.

For the people saying that a coach rating proves someone has taken the time and effort to learn how to teach, I disagree. The only thing it *proves* is that the person giving the course signed them off for the rating. If everyone with a coach rating put in the time and effort to learn how to teach and applied this knowledge for the sake of helping others, then I would not have any problem with the coach rating.

My big problem with the coach rating is the people who have it who are awful coaches and dangerous to others, yet still sucker students who don't know any better into paying for a 'coached' jump.

This is NOT to say that all people with the coach rating are bad. There are many fantastic coaches out there. It is the bad ones who share the exact same rating that are the problem.

Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com

[Thanatos340 1]

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They would be dangerous to a student and have absolutely nothing else to offer anyone else, yet they are paid money to coach simply because their check cleared and bought them a coach rating.

The Coaches course I took was 3 full 10+ hour days of ground school and evaluations. These rating were in no way just handed out. Writing a check was quick and easy. Passing the course was not and it was a great and worthwhile learning experience.

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The only thing it *proves* is that the person giving the course signed them off for the rating.

If that is even remotely true, Then the USPA needs to do something about their examiners.

I do know of a few jumpers on the west coast that just said they "Sat around a Table on a Friday night and all got signed off". I agree that is completely BS and the examiner that did that should loose their credentials. Something like that discredits the entire program.

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My big problem with the coach rating is the people who have it who are awful coaches and dangerous to others, yet still sucker students who don't know any better into paying for a 'coached' jump.

My problem is people having to PAY someone to jump with them to begin with.

You do not need to be a Top Big Way Flyer, Pro Swooper and/or Hot shit free flyer to go out on a two way with a resent AFF grad and do basic drill dives. Just because one jumper is more skilled than another does not mean that person will make a better teacher/Coach.

The Rating gives Jumpers that would like to give something back to the Sport a way to “demonstrate” that they are competent to jump with a new Jumper. However, Rating or NOT, Nothing should supersede the DZO`s and/or S&TA`s opinion.

[billvon 3,111]

>Locals should be able assess who is capable of going out with
>post-grad students. Letting a stranger do this is silly

A few years ago I stopped by a DZ and was waivering in when the DZO noted I had an AFF rating. "Hey, want to do an AFF? We really need a reserve side for a level III." "Sure," I said, and half an hour later I was going over the dive with a student. (They use straight-syllabus AFF which makes it easy.) Did four AFF's that day, including a graduation dive.

Why did they let a 'stranger' do AFF? Because the rating conveys that a jumper is capable of doing that sort of instruction, and along with some additional verification (which you can do by just talking to someone) you get enough confidence (often) to "let a stranger do that."

I think there is similar value in a 'universal' coach rating.

>Some of the 'worst' skydivers I know have a coach rating.

And I know some terrible RW people who are great coaches. The skills aren't always the same.

>The demo organizer should able to assess who can land and make a good
>show. Letting stranger on a demo - just because they have some rating
>is also silly.

I agree. But if you're a Wal-Mart manager, and you have two teams - one fully PRO-certified, the other really, really cheap - you can decide to go with the certified team. The PRO rating is a good filter there, and you can bet the PRO-rated team is going to explain what the rating means.

If you're a manager and your choice is between two uncertified teams (because there is no PRO rating) and one is half the price because they're using people with 100 jumps - then the choice is a lot more murky. Why not go with the 100 jump people? To a whuffo, 100 jumps sounds like a heck of a lot of jumps, and they don't charge as much.

The PRO rating, to me, isn't meant to help demo organizers choose jumpers. It's intended to help whuffos choose demo teams.