tdog 0 #26 November 24, 2004 Quoteshould an AFF student be taught flat turns??? or should we learn it later?? HMMMM I was.... I was even told to practice it via the radio on like my 2nd jump... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pccoder 0 #27 November 24, 2004 I do look at my alti usually until I am on final (or in this case right before initiating the turn); however I do not remember what my altitutde was (under 1000ft). I do not have a digital altimeter. Unfortunately for me, I did a couple of double fronts, then went straight to big, harder hook turns, without truely knowing what I was doing. I did flare about half way at the last second. I spoke to (believe it or not) my AFF coach yesterday who told me he witnessed the entire landing and I asked if I flared; he said a little like I explained above. He also said I was coming out of the bottom of the turn so I didn't have a ton of vertical speed (some certainly) but alot more horizontal speed. I am obviously in-experienced. I do believe that the primary reason I smacked the ground was target fixation. This doesn't excuse the fact that I was doing a low turn, hooking it or progessing beyond my capabilities, etc. However, I had done at least 20 approaches like this already and each and every one would have me planing out at least 20-30 feet above the ground. On this one I just held the risers too long and kept looking at the flag. And that is why I believe the target fixation is what got me. Let me stress again however; everything else I did starting with the hook turn to the point where I hit the ground DID help increase my chances of this happening. I agree that coaching will be a top priority for me now. Not on high performance landings as much ( I just want to back off of that for a long time ) but for basic canopy flight and control. I've always flown well and had really nice soft accurate landings, but I need to understand why and not just be content with doing it. Also, on a negative note, I went to a followup doctor yeterday afternoon and he spent a great deal of time examing me and is going to do an MRI on my back. He diagnosed me with post-trauma to the T6 and T7 vertebrae (misspelled?) and wants to rule out any burst disc, or ligament damage. It still hurts quite a bit to take deep breaths and when I wake in the morning I am ungodly sore. As I move around during the day it gets better, but time will andn of course the MRI will tell what is truely going on. Thanks so much for all the advice, everyone, and for taking the time to post constuctive criticism without telling me "you're a screw up" like I thought I would get alot of. I really appreciate the help and comments and hope that maybe someone else learns from what I did too. Chris PcCoder.net Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Reginald 0 #28 November 24, 2004 Quote Also, I need to consider the very true reality of my not being ready to start such aggresive landing approaches like I have been for the past 20 jumps or so. Quote I’m very pleased that you are reasonably okay. You could have easily died or been paralyzed for life. I hope your Dr. does not find anything seriously damaged in the follow-ups. I have to congratulate you on discovering some wisdom, even if the earth literally beat it into you. Obviously you were being very aggressive. As an educational device I will list a few factors stacked against you: Little practice on more basic HP landings before moving on to more advanced ones, little canopy experience, low jump numbers, no HP landing training. I advise people against doing HP landings that have similar issues on a regular basis, and in another forum I got chastised for doing so. I hope that some people reading this learn from your experience and realize that even if they manage to pull of some number of HP landings with some or all of the factors above stacked against them, that on any dive they may find themselves in a position where they are in over their heads. The end result can be death or worse… I have nothing against swooping, hell I’m for it, given people have sufficient experience and training. However, the question people should ask themselves is not, “do I have the experience to swoop under ideal circumstances.” The question people should ask is, "do I have the ability to handle ANY situation that might come up, particularly the bad situations before starting to swoop.” I do congratulate you on posting this lesson. You showed humility and wisdom. I just hope other people learn from your example instead of their own. Blue Skies my friend and heal fast. I’d be honored to jump with you anytime. Ron"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkydiveNFlorida 0 #29 November 24, 2004 QuoteI do look at my alti usually until I am on final (or in this case right before initiating the turn); however I do not remember what my altitutde was (under 1000ft). I do not have a digital altimeter. I always check my alti before making my turn. A lot of very experienced pilots do not do that because they have a good picture in their minds of how the ground should look before they turn. This is something we must develop with time. I have a neptune digital. I am pretty use to the sight picture and I can definitely see too low now, but when I started that was not as much the case and I am glad I bought this early on. And, like I said, I still use it every time, it is a great tool. QuoteUnfortunately for me, I did a couple of double fronts, then went straight to big, harder hook turns, without truely knowing what I was doing. I can't say I did much different than that. But, learning the sight picture is so important. I had to stab a few times when I started, but it sounds like your object fixation prevented you from taking necessary measures. I have never experienced this, but I am glad you are going to take it slow and get some good all-around canopy coaching. Maybe if you better understand what happened to you with this object fixation, you can avoid it happening again. Sorry to hear of your possible problems with your back. I hope that you are ok and can get back out there soon and have some nice landings:) Take care. Angela. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites murps2000 86 #30 November 30, 2004 I just wanted to say that, in spite of the aggressivness with which you have pursued HP landings so far, I think you at least showed good judgement in your canopy selection. So many others who are eager to swoop do not. A fatality is usually the result of a chain of unfortunate events, with the choice of too small a canopy often being a link. You eliminated that link, and the chain was broken. A lot of experienced canopy pilots have an "I almost hooked in" story. Although of only moderate experience, I certainly have mine. Now you have yours. In my case, I was similarly saved by a large canopy, too. While you're laid up for a while, I'd suggest getting yourself a copy of "The Parachute and it's Pilot" by Brian Germain. I think it kept a guy on here called SkyHighKiy from ending up in your situation, and I wish it were available to me a few years ago. Hope the doctor's news is good, and you're back in the air soon. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pccoder 0 #31 November 30, 2004 Ironically, I had asked my girlfriend for that book for xmas, so if she doesn't get it for me I'll have to purchase it myself. Got my ribs x-rayed yesterday followed by a thoracic spine MRI. The xrays looked good, it was done with some cool digital xray machine so I could see the pictures right after they were taken. As far as the MRI is concerned, I hope to hear something from my dr. soon. I saw the Dr. last night after the MRI and he took me off the Percocet and put me on methodone instead. I had been waking up in the morning in so much intense pain in my back it hurt to breathe, move, etc. Finally, for the first time I woke this morning feeling quite better. So, although I hope I am just just healing I bet it's probably the new drug. I'll post more when I hear the results. PcCoder.net Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyhighkiy 0 #32 November 30, 2004 good choice, try to get it be 4 you go up again, after my third time through it, my confidence was boosted incredibly... ...hmm...I guess it's hard to explain. lemme try one more time. I slowed my progression down (although it is still as intense) to something that allowed me to stay intense (by practicing safety maneuvers) but allowed me to be FAR safer than i was because i acquired a vast amount of information regarding weather, mentalities, safety maneuvers, and my canopy from the book. ....sounds about right. My confidence is boosted because I feel like I really am learning to Control my canopy, rather than flying under it...a difference that's hard to feel until you start doing it. But the confidence is not to be mistaken with ego. I have more confidence in what i know i can do, and a little more confidence in what i'm learning because i know i'm going about learning it the right way. Even during the few amounts of jumps (around 50) I got in after reading the book, I used the tips regarding mentality and how to get out of dangerous situations (including fixation) and back from long-spots more than a couple times, and i'm positive it saved me from serious, serious injury. acquire a large 'toolbox' to work from, should you end up in a bad situation. Hope you have a quick recovery BE THE BUDDHA! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pccoder 0 #33 December 2, 2004 *Update* Had another MRI yesterday evening and got the news from my Dr. just today... 4 fractured vertebrae, T7 through T4. I get to go through 3 sessions of pain block injections in my back starting either tomorrow or next Friday. So, I am very lucky (like I said before), but evidentaly not made of steel. I will be out of skydiving for at least 3 to 4 months. Let me over emphasize this simple statement. IT WAS NOT WORTH IT. Please read this entire post carefully and if you can learn not to do what I did then I am smiling at least a little bit. PcCoder.net Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Reginald 0 #34 December 3, 2004 Sorry to hear about the more extensive injuries. Hopefully others will learn from your expierence. Heal fast."We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 2 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. 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SkydiveNFlorida 0 #29 November 24, 2004 QuoteI do look at my alti usually until I am on final (or in this case right before initiating the turn); however I do not remember what my altitutde was (under 1000ft). I do not have a digital altimeter. I always check my alti before making my turn. A lot of very experienced pilots do not do that because they have a good picture in their minds of how the ground should look before they turn. This is something we must develop with time. I have a neptune digital. I am pretty use to the sight picture and I can definitely see too low now, but when I started that was not as much the case and I am glad I bought this early on. And, like I said, I still use it every time, it is a great tool. QuoteUnfortunately for me, I did a couple of double fronts, then went straight to big, harder hook turns, without truely knowing what I was doing. I can't say I did much different than that. But, learning the sight picture is so important. I had to stab a few times when I started, but it sounds like your object fixation prevented you from taking necessary measures. I have never experienced this, but I am glad you are going to take it slow and get some good all-around canopy coaching. Maybe if you better understand what happened to you with this object fixation, you can avoid it happening again. Sorry to hear of your possible problems with your back. I hope that you are ok and can get back out there soon and have some nice landings:) Take care. Angela. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
murps2000 86 #30 November 30, 2004 I just wanted to say that, in spite of the aggressivness with which you have pursued HP landings so far, I think you at least showed good judgement in your canopy selection. So many others who are eager to swoop do not. A fatality is usually the result of a chain of unfortunate events, with the choice of too small a canopy often being a link. You eliminated that link, and the chain was broken. A lot of experienced canopy pilots have an "I almost hooked in" story. Although of only moderate experience, I certainly have mine. Now you have yours. In my case, I was similarly saved by a large canopy, too. While you're laid up for a while, I'd suggest getting yourself a copy of "The Parachute and it's Pilot" by Brian Germain. I think it kept a guy on here called SkyHighKiy from ending up in your situation, and I wish it were available to me a few years ago. Hope the doctor's news is good, and you're back in the air soon. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pccoder 0 #31 November 30, 2004 Ironically, I had asked my girlfriend for that book for xmas, so if she doesn't get it for me I'll have to purchase it myself. Got my ribs x-rayed yesterday followed by a thoracic spine MRI. The xrays looked good, it was done with some cool digital xray machine so I could see the pictures right after they were taken. As far as the MRI is concerned, I hope to hear something from my dr. soon. I saw the Dr. last night after the MRI and he took me off the Percocet and put me on methodone instead. I had been waking up in the morning in so much intense pain in my back it hurt to breathe, move, etc. Finally, for the first time I woke this morning feeling quite better. So, although I hope I am just just healing I bet it's probably the new drug. I'll post more when I hear the results. PcCoder.net Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyhighkiy 0 #32 November 30, 2004 good choice, try to get it be 4 you go up again, after my third time through it, my confidence was boosted incredibly... ...hmm...I guess it's hard to explain. lemme try one more time. I slowed my progression down (although it is still as intense) to something that allowed me to stay intense (by practicing safety maneuvers) but allowed me to be FAR safer than i was because i acquired a vast amount of information regarding weather, mentalities, safety maneuvers, and my canopy from the book. ....sounds about right. My confidence is boosted because I feel like I really am learning to Control my canopy, rather than flying under it...a difference that's hard to feel until you start doing it. But the confidence is not to be mistaken with ego. I have more confidence in what i know i can do, and a little more confidence in what i'm learning because i know i'm going about learning it the right way. Even during the few amounts of jumps (around 50) I got in after reading the book, I used the tips regarding mentality and how to get out of dangerous situations (including fixation) and back from long-spots more than a couple times, and i'm positive it saved me from serious, serious injury. acquire a large 'toolbox' to work from, should you end up in a bad situation. Hope you have a quick recovery BE THE BUDDHA! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pccoder 0 #33 December 2, 2004 *Update* Had another MRI yesterday evening and got the news from my Dr. just today... 4 fractured vertebrae, T7 through T4. I get to go through 3 sessions of pain block injections in my back starting either tomorrow or next Friday. So, I am very lucky (like I said before), but evidentaly not made of steel. I will be out of skydiving for at least 3 to 4 months. Let me over emphasize this simple statement. IT WAS NOT WORTH IT. Please read this entire post carefully and if you can learn not to do what I did then I am smiling at least a little bit. PcCoder.net Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Reginald 0 #34 December 3, 2004 Sorry to hear about the more extensive injuries. Hopefully others will learn from your expierence. Heal fast."We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
